Noordstream Sabotage

[Ralin]

And when it comes to the hysterical responses to Hersh,

So just to be clear who exactly here is being hysterical? Me, Tev, HDS, etc?

[madd0c0t0r2]

Seymor Hersch has been peddling conspiracy theories without any evidence for a long time now. Riding on a very old reputation where he did some actual journalistic work.

As for Seymour Hersh himself, his track record is pretty ironclad. S

Mmmmm. There's some fundamental disagreement there on the source. I'm with HDS, I also think it probable that it was the americans. I find it less probable it was as the Hersh story goes, with Denmark and Norway playing large active roles, or stealth mines left on remote control on the pipes for months.

[Broomstick]

As for Seymour Hersh himself, his track record is pretty ironclad.

Yes, he's done some very good investigative journalism, even won a Pulitzer and a bunch of other shiny trophies. He's also dropped the occasional turd, too, which should surprise no one because no one can be right all the time.

I mean, claiming Assad did NOT use chemical weapons on civilians is, at this point, an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof, which is not forthcoming. Assertions that Jewish money runs American politics is a bad look (the truth is just plain money runs a lot of American politics and the source doesn't matter). In 2006 (April 17th issue of the The New Yorker) he claimed that the US was contemplating a nuclear strike on Iran which, honestly, helped no one and nothing and was apparently unsupported by facts - in other words, with Bush as PotUS at that point, he doesn't just criticize Democrats. He's got a real bug up his ass about this notion that the US is looking for ways to foment an open war with Iran which, as far as I can tell, is unique to him and without credible support. His denial that bin Laden and Al Qaeda were responsible for 9/11 is another not credible position, and he claims reports of bin Laden's death are lies, all lies - without providing independently verifiable evidence of that claim, just claiming one anonymous source without any other supporting evidence. He casts doubt that the Skripnal poisoning case is a Kremlin hit despite other examples of the Kremlin assassinating people in the UK.

Yes, he's done some good journalism. Other times he just wants you to take his word for it. I'm sorry, that's not how good, solid reporting is done. Admittedly, good solid reporting is not as common as we'd all like, but Hersh, while capable of awesome reporting, does not always deliver.

And when it comes to the hysterical responses to Hersh, I'm reminded of Claud Cockburn's sage advice:

Questioning a claim is not being "hysterical". Asking for independently verifiable facts is not being "hysterical".

The Nordstream 2 claim made by Hersh relies on ONE source, anonymous, and does not have additional supporting and verifiable facts. That is not good journalism. That is speculation. There's nothing inherently wrong with speculation but until it is verified it can not and should not be claimed as facts.

[Solauren]

Did Elfdart finally crack? Or was his account hijacked?

[Ralin]

Saw people picking at the article elsewhere. Obviously pretty hard to disprove the "My secret source told me this" part, but:

Norway was one of the original signatories of the NATO Treaty in 1949, in the early days of the Cold War. Today, the supreme commander of NATO is Jens Stoltenberg, a committed anti-communist, who served as Norway’s prime minister for eight years before moving to his high NATO post, with American backing, in 2014. He was a hardliner on all things Putin and Russia who had cooperated with the American intelligence community since the Vietnam War. He has been trusted completely since. “He is the glove that fits the American hand,” the source said.

He was a hardliner on all things Putin and Russia who had cooperated with the American intelligence community since the Vietnam War. He has been trusted completely since.

While I'm not familiar with his career and politics, Jens Stoltenberg was about eight years old at the height of the Vietnam War. If he was cooperating with the American intelligence community then he had a damned interesting childhood. And while I'm also not familiar with NATO's ranks and command structure, he's the Secretary General, not the Supreme Commander. Maybe that wasn't intended as a literal title, but still seems like an odd way to refer to someone in what is apparently not considered a military command position.

I dunno. That's just one paragraph, but I'm not inclined to believe this story the author's unnamed source totally told him.

Also what the hell does his views on communism have to do with any of this?

[Broomstick]

A lot of people labor under the assumption that today's Russia is still communist (or, more properly, socialist). It's not. It's an authoritarian dictatorship with a kleptocractic, centralized capitalist economy attached.

[Ralin]

A lot of people labor under the assumption that today's Russia is still communist (or, more properly, socialist). It's not. It's an authoritarian dictatorship with a kleptocractic, centralized capitalist economy attached.

That was the joke, yes.

[Ralin]

Also

Sometime in March, a few members of the team flew to Norway to meet with the Norwegian Secret Service and Navy.

Going off Google there doesn't seem to be an organization called the Norwegian Secret Service. Norway's foreign intelligence agency is called the Norwegian Intelligence Service.

Just in general though that seems like a weird decision on the US government's part. They have to carefully pick a part of the US military that isn't obligated to report to Congress (a rule that history has shown will totally be followed in these circumstances) because the whole thing needs to be kept airtight secret. Makes sense, this would be a huge scandal that would rock NATO if it came out...so then they bring in the military and intelligence service of Norway, a third country? The US intelligence community has had its share of blunders, but you'd think they of all people would understand that the more groups you bring into an operation the less likely it is to stay secret. How does that make sense?

[Lord Revan]

Also if Norwegian Intelligence Service is anything like it's Finnish counter-parts they're heavily focused on countering sabotage and espionage not enacting it Finnish Security Intelligence Service being the most relevant of the 3 here as the other 2 seemed to be focused in Signal intelligence.

As far as I know the way the Nordic countries operate their Intelligence agencies is very different from how US or Russia does it.

[Lord Revan]

A lot of people labor under the assumption that today's Russia is still communist (or, more properly, socialist). It's not. It's an authoritarian dictatorship with a kleptocractic, centralized capitalist economy attached.

I would argue that modern Russia has more in common with the pre-revolution Russian Empire then it has with Soviet Union

[Highlord Laan]

A lot of people labor under the assumption that today's Russia is still communist (or, more properly, socialist). It's not. It's an authoritarian dictatorship with a kleptocractic, centralized capitalist economy attached.

Which neatly explains why republicans love poot-poot so much.

[LadyTevar]

A lot of people labor under the assumption that today's Russia is still communist (or, more properly, socialist). It's not. It's an authoritarian dictatorship with a kleptocractic, centralized capitalist economy attached.

I would argue that modern Russia has more in common with the pre-revolution Russian Empire then it has with Soviet Union

I really can't disagree. We have a "Tsar" Putin, who is acting as a dictator. We have a number of "Nobles" in the Oligarchs, and those who are out of line are falling out of windows. You've even got the problems of losing a war badly, with large loss of life, fully under the Tsar's orders.

[Solauren]

I've seen that parellel drawn by alot of people in other places.

I'm hoping that it continues to draw parellels up until the Tsar being removed from power, and sanity coming into the government/military enough to stop the invasion-insanity.

[LadyTevar]

I've seen that parellel drawn by alot of people in other places.

I'm hoping that it continues to draw parellels up until the Tsar being removed from power, and sanity coming into the government/military enough to stop the invasion-insanity.

That didn't work out that well the LAST time. Maybe they'll get it right this time?

[His Divine Shadow]

I liked this video on Russia. It states that Russian democracy died on October 4th, 1993 and honestly, we in the west didn't give much of a shit at the time. Yelstin fucking ruined Russia and turned it from a parliamentary democracy to a superpresidential regime and laid the groundwork for Putins modern Russia. That's typical of the time end of history bullshit though.



I dunno anything about the channel, is a russian, doesn't seem to be pro-putin.

[wautd]

I dunno anything about the channel, is a russian, doesn't seem to be pro-putin.

Iirc, he used to be a Putinist zombie during his youth, but eventually managed to see through Putin's personality cult and became a critic of his regime. He left Russia around the time of the special mobilization campaign needed to support Putin's totally succesful war special military operation in Ukrain
I found the guy's channel around last New Year, when he made a video about Russia's New Year celebration when the country was still sane.
Seeing Russian Goebbels Vladimir Solovyov making dance movies while Zelensky is performing on stage was quite surreal to say the least:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVZ1m48fHDI[/youtube]

edit: how does one make those Youtube thumbnails?

[bilateralrope]

edit: how does one make those Youtube thumbnails?

Remove the s from https.

[Ralin]

I'm still curious who here Elfdart thinks was being hysterical.

[Lord Revan]

I'm still curious who here Elfdart thinks was being hysterical.

Did the Pentagon or Langley admit they blew up the pipe line? If not then everyone who thought US wasn't at fault here.

EDIT: Elfdart seemed to be obsessed with US being in the guilt so to him everyone who is doubting that is being hysterical.

[Broomstick]

Sure, the US has done a lot of dodgy and even criminal shit in the past, and some of that past being really recent, too. (Honestly, every nation does dodgy shit). That does not constitute proof that the US was involved in any particular dodgy/criminal act.

I have not seen evidence that any particular nation is responsible for Nordstream blowing up. Someone is responsible, but who we do not know at this point.

[LadyTevar]

I'm still curious who here Elfdart thinks was being hysterical.

Did the Pentagon or Langley admit they blew up the pipe line? If not then everyone who thought US wasn't at fault here.

EDIT: Elfdart seemed to be obsessed with US being in the guilt so to him everyone who is doubting that is being hysterical.

Funny how he's not posted since.

[madd0c0t0r2]

I'm still curious who here Elfdart thinks was being hysterical.

Did the Pentagon or Langley admit they blew up the pipe line? If not then everyone who thought US wasn't at fault here.

EDIT: Elfdart seemed to be obsessed with US being in the guilt so to him everyone who is doubting that is being hysterical.

Funny how he's not posted since.

maybe he was having lots of arguments in many places at once?

[Dominus Atheos]

Dailykos's explanation of "tankies".

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/5 ... ca-s-fault

You’ve seen tankies around. They’re the ones who believe that all the world’s evils are the product of imperialism and the only country capable of imperialism is the United States. It looks like this:

Caitlin Johnstone
@caitoz

If you're on the side of the US empire on any issue you are on the wrong side. Doesn't mean the other side is always necessarily in the right, it just means a globe-spanning empire that's held together by lies, murder and tyranny will always be in the wrong. Yes it's that simple.

6:48 AM · Apr 23, 2022

The pejorative term “tankie” comes from American leftists who defended the violent Soviet crackdown of the 1956 Hungarian uprising, an uprising crushed by tanks. They were our allies during the Iraq War, so it may come as a shock seeing them become pathetic apologists for Vladimir Putin’s ambitions to reconstitute the Soviet empire.

Elfdart is a tankie.

[Elfdart]

Dailykos's explanation of "tankies".

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/5 ... ca-s-fault

You’ve seen tankies around. They’re the ones who believe that all the world’s evils are the product of imperialism and the only country capable of imperialism is the United States. It looks like this:

Caitlin Johnstone
@caitoz

If you're on the side of the US empire on any issue you are on the wrong side. Doesn't mean the other side is always necessarily in the right, it just means a globe-spanning empire that's held together by lies, murder and tyranny will always be in the wrong. Yes it's that simple.

6:48 AM · Apr 23, 2022

The pejorative term “tankie” comes from American leftists who defended the violent Soviet crackdown of the 1956 Hungarian uprising, an uprising crushed by tanks. They were our allies during the Iraq War, so it may come as a shock seeing them become pathetic apologists for Vladimir Putin’s ambitions to reconstitute the Soviet empire.

Elfdart is a tankie.

Daily Kos is still around?

Sure, the US has done a lot of dodgy and even criminal shit in the past, and some of that past being really recent, too. (Honestly, every nation does dodgy shit). That does not constitute proof that the US was involved in any particular dodgy/criminal act.

I have not seen evidence that any particular nation is responsible for Nordstream blowing up. Someone is responsible, but who we do not know at this point.

OK, Sergeant Schultz.

There's an old saying among reporters and police that when an old restaurant burns down at night, it's almost always arson; and when a woman is found murdered, it's almost always a husband or boyfriend who did it. Here we have a pipeline that was blown up. It didn't blow itself up, and only one country has been promising for years to shut it down come hell or high water, and that same country took a victory lap when the deed was done. Now let's explore this analogy and see who's rambling like they're on drugs:

You have a woman's bullet-riddled corpse. You have a jilted creep who's been stalking her for years, making threats not only against her but anyone who takes her side. When her body is found, the creep throws a party and dances a jig to celebrate. He also tries to profit from her untimely demise by making a lowball offer to her current partner to buy her belongings. Then a local reporter with an impeccable track record, who has been covering the crime beat for over 50 years, writes an article where he claims that according to sources in law enforcement, they're pretty certain the jilted creep did it and they're also sure how he did it and why.

Then you have the jilted creep's employees (and the gullible morons who believe the jilted creep's story that he had nothing to do with the killing) crawling out of the woodwork to lie about the reporter, and to suggest that the murder victim got what was coming to her.

Did the Pentagon or Langley admit they blew up the pipe line? If not then everyone who thought US wasn't at fault here.

EDIT: Elfdart seemed to be obsessed with US being in the guilt so to him everyone who is doubting that is being hysterical.

I'm "obsessed" with the US being guilty in the same way I'm "obsessed" with the sun rising in the east this morning: That's what it has always done before and there's no reason to think this time was any different. I don't hesitate to pin the blame on other countries when they behave in thuggish fashion. For example, should one or more of the natural gas pipelines from Norway be destroyed, it'll be obvious the Russians did it.

Besides, anyone who cites Bellingcat*, the same outfit that helped recruit headchoppers for ISIS, is at best an imbecile.

* Or the "journalists" who cite the NED-sponsored troll farm.

Which neatly explains why republicans love poot-poot so much.

They love Putin because Hillary and her dead-enders still claim he's the reason she shit the bed so hard in 2016 and lost to a white supremacist game show host. In other words because they're as spiteful as they are stupid. Speaking of spiteful and stupid...

Saw people picking at the article elsewhere. Obviously pretty hard to disprove the "My secret source told me this" part, but:

Norway was one of the original signatories of the NATO Treaty in 1949, in the early days of the Cold War. Today, the supreme commander of NATO is Jens Stoltenberg, a committed anti-communist, who served as Norway’s prime minister for eight years before moving to his high NATO post, with American backing, in 2014. He was a hardliner on all things Putin and Russia who had cooperated with the American intelligence community since the Vietnam War. He has been trusted completely since. “He is the glove that fits the American hand,” the source said.

He was a hardliner on all things Putin and Russia who had cooperated with the American intelligence community since the Vietnam War. He has been trusted completely since.

While I'm not familiar with his career and politics, Jens Stoltenberg was about eight years old at the height of the Vietnam War. If he was cooperating with the American intelligence community then he had a damned interesting childhood. And while I'm also not familiar with NATO's ranks and command structure, he's the Secretary General, not the Supreme Commander. Maybe that wasn't intended as a literal title, but still seems like an odd way to refer to someone in what is apparently not considered a military command position.

I dunno. That's just one paragraph, but I'm not inclined to believe this story the author's unnamed source totally told him.

Also what the hell does his views on communism have to do with any of this?

Where to start? First of all, while Stoltenberg might have been only 8 when Tet began, he was a teenager when Nixon ordered the bombing of Haiphong and that's when he and his friends pelted the US Embassy with rocks, shattering the windows. Usually someone with that kind of thing on their record is disqualified from any prominent role in national security or defense, but then again, Stoltenberg's dad was a career diplomat -which would also explain why the young Stoltenberg's friends who participated in the rock-throwing were collared by the police while he skated. It could be favoritism based on his family or it could be he was a snitch, which would explain his career ever since. Not that it really matters, except to show your dishonesty. You might as well have said he was only four when Diem was assassinated, so hurr hurr.

Oh, and cut the bullshit about Hersh using only one source. He quoted one source, but he always has more than one. By your logic, Nixon's White House had nothing to do with Watergate, since Bob Woodward kept his main source's identity secret for 30 years.

[Ralin]

Not that it really matters, except to show your dishonesty. You might as well have said he was only four when Diem was assassinated, so hurr hurr.

Yeah, doh, obviously all that was what anyone reading it would jump to. And obviously any random point in the war is equally valid to pick out of a hat as an example.

Which part of the American intelligence community do you think he snitched on his friends to for committing a crime in Norway?

Oh, and cut the bullshit about Hersh using only one source. He quoted one source, but he always has more than one. By your logic, Nixon's White House had nothing to do with Watergate, since Bob Woodward kept his main source's identity secret for 30 years.

Nah, our logic is more that we have no real reason to believe he has any actual sources.