Invasion of England?

[Boba Fett]

Everybody is talking about the mighty RN.

Do you remember operation "Donnerkeil-Cerberus"?

It was on 11-12.o2.1943.

During these days the Kriegsmarine managed to cross the Brit's precious channel. (last time it happened it was in 1690, when Tourwille defeated the Dutch fleet at Wight island)

So the Prinz Eugen, the Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst teamed up and under the cover of 200+ fighter and some bomber group.

Results:

Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe: 1 guardship (fisherboat) sunk
8 others are damaged

Kriegsmarine had 13 dead, 68 wounded.

Luftwaffe had 11 dead, lost 17 fighters.


Navy Air Force, Coastal Command and Strategic Bomber Command:

Lost 60+ bombers and torpedo planes.

The destroyer Worchester was hit and were on flames.


Where were the RN?

As for Seelöwe, it was an idiot idea from the beginning.

[phongn]

That's a massive red herring. A trio of cruisers under some air cover going through the English Channel has absolutely no bearing on the absolute superiority of the RN Home Fleet.

[RedImperator]

U.S. planning took the fall of Britain into account. Somewhat.

Anybody remember what the B-36 was designed for?

At the time, there was no way to know how impossible a cross-Channel invasion would have been. It made sense that we would have designed a plane that could have taken off from New York to drop nuclear bombs on Germany and fly all the way back home, just in case.

[phongn]

U.S. planning took the fall of Britain into account. Somewhat.

Anybody remember what the B-36 was designed for?

At the time, there was no way to know how impossible a cross-Channel invasion would have been. It made sense that we would have designed a plane that could have taken off from New York to drop nuclear bombs on Germany and fly all the way back home, just in case.

Of course, it later had applications in being able to penetrate the USSR, especially in the stripped RB-36 configuration.

[Frank Hipper]

U.S. planning took the fall of Britain into account. Somewhat.

Anybody remember what the B-36 was designed for?

At the time, there was no way to know how impossible a cross-Channel invasion would have been. It made sense that we would have designed a plane that could have taken off from New York to drop nuclear bombs on Germany and fly all the way back home, just in case.

It was designed with conventional weapons in mind, but I'm just being nit-pickish.

[Raptor 597]

U.S. planning took the fall of Britain into account. Somewhat.

Anybody remember what the B-36 was designed for?

At the time, there was no way to know how impossible a cross-Channel invasion would have been. It made sense that we would have designed a plane that could have taken off from New York to drop nuclear bombs on Germany and fly all the way back home, just in case.

It was designed with conventional weapons in mind, but I'm just being nit-pickish.

Actually, they were designed for making war on Britain, well at the very beginning. The Navy Department looked for capable enemies in the 1930s and they quite a few plans for US vs Japan or US vs. Britain.

[Straha]

So let's see.

1) Sealion was a farce. The barges needed to capture any territory at all are going to be swamped on a normal day in the Channel, and even if they get a really calm one, any of the tanks on the mainland will have a field day chasing down infantry, as will the armoured emplacements, and, by circumstantial evidence, the stores of Mustard Gas.

2) The Battle Of Britain was a losing battle for the Germans. They couldn't effectively stop the RAF enough for Sealion to go forward. Even if they could stop the RAF from flying over the Continent, they wouldn't be able to stop them from shooting up every raft that floated their way.

3) The Bismark, the only ship that would be feasible for clearing the Channel, was victim of a fatal mob stabbing when the Fleet finally caught it with it's pants down.

4) Then there's always the stuff I heard about Hitler wanting England to join him, which would explain the sheer farce that was his war against them.

You forgot that they would have to supply the German troops... something which could not be done unless they had both air, sea, and ground superiority.

[RedImperator]

Actually, they were designed for making war on Britain, well at the very beginning. The Navy Department looked for capable enmies in the 1930s and they quite a few plans for US vs Japan or US vs. Britain.

I've read those war plans. They don't come right out and say it, but it seems the War Department expected to get curb-stomped if the British and Japanese ever teamed up against us, at least at sea.

[Howedar]

Sealion was a disaster waiting to happen.

http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm

I actually laughed out loud when I read this the first time. It's not meant to be comedy.

Oh my God.

[Sea Skimmer]

Where were the RN?

This is relevant how? Where were the German fighters when the RAF raids destroyed more then 10% of the assembled invasion craft simply sitting in port protected by 300 flak batteries?

Edit: It is relevant in one way, it shows how easily weather could render RN vessels near immune to attack while their busy sinking barges with there wakes.

[Shortie]

2 points:

1: It's Britain you fool, not England. Or do you think the rest of the Union would just sit and watch?

2: Over on soc.history.what.if Sealion comes up fairly often, and the most realistic plan anyone has come up with is to use Jello. Lots of Jello.

[phongn]

They're invading the southern coast of England, are they not? I don't see plans to hit Wales or Scotland.

[phongn]

Actually, they were designed for making war on Britain, well at the very beginning. The Navy Department looked for capable enmies in the 1930s and they quite a few plans for US vs Japan or US vs. Britain.

I've read those war plans. They don't come right out and say it, but it seems the War Department expected to get curb-stomped if the British and Japanese ever teamed up against us, at least at sea.

Under the 5/5/3 plan, we'd be 'out-tonned' 8-5, so we may very well lose. The USN could take one or the other under the restricted fleet size, but not both. The technical advantages afforded by the USN likely would not be enough.

I haven't seen War Plan Red, though, so I can't really comment much more on it.

[Howedar]

1: It's Britain you fool, not England. Or do you think the rest of the Union would just sit and watch?

Nobody gives a flying fuck about your idiot semantic bitching. We know full well what the United Kingdom is.

[SirNitram]

They're invading the southern coast of England, are they not? I don't see plans to hit Wales or Scotland.

It's a semantics quibble on his part, but history has proven the one thing that'll actually unite the Isles is a damned foreigner setting foot on the sand and calling it anything but Britain.

[phongn]

They're invading the southern coast of England, are they not? I don't see plans to hit Wales or Scotland.

It's a semantics quibble on his part, but history has proven the one thing that'll actually unite the Isles is a damned foreigner setting foot on the sand and calling it anything but Britain.

I'm quite aware it was nitpickign, but yes, that's true.

[Shortie]

1: It's Britain you fool, not England. Or do you think the rest of the Union would just sit and watch?

Nobody gives a flying fuck about your idiot semantic bitching. We know full well what the United Kingdom is.

The OP clearly didn't, and it's not just semantics. England may be the largest part of the union, and the island, but it's certainly not the entirety.

And phongn, try telling the soldiers from Wales, Ireland and Scotland who would have been fighting on the beaches that they weren't being invaded too.

[Darth Gojira]

I'd say we have Col Klink in charge if the invasion. It'd be a little less uncertian Seriously, I'd say Germany would suceed, but take outrageously heavy losses(One acronym: RAF). It's kinda sorta like the proposed attack on Japan.
On the other hand, megalomaniacs who ally then attack Russia have had a history of being allergic to an invasion of the UK

[Boba Fett]

That's a massive red herring. A trio of cruisers under some air cover going through the English Channel has absolutely no bearing on the absolute superiority of the RN Home Fleet.

I'm not questioning the superiority of the RN, phongn.

It was a tactical materpiece and shows the incompetence of the Admirality of fleet positioning.

Don't say that three cruisers didn't worth the time, gasoline and ammo to deal with...

[Sea Skimmer]

I'm not questioning the superiority of the RN, phongn.

It was a tactical materpiece and shows the incompetence of the Admirality of fleet positioning.

Several years later when there is no threat of invasion and thus no point of leaving heavy forces in the channel where they might be hit by bombers.

[Frank Hipper]

Actually, they were designed for making war on Britain, well at the very beginning. The Navy Department looked for capable enemies in the 1930s and they quite a few plans for US vs Japan or US vs. Britain.

I know about those plans, but this is the first I've ever heard the B-36 being part of them.

[Raptor 597]

Actually, they were designed for making war on Britain, well at the very beginning. The Navy Department looked for capable enemies in the 1930s and they quite a few plans for US vs Japan or US vs. Britain.

I know about those plans, but this is the first I've ever heard the B-36 being part of them.

It's a choice of words. Britain being occupied or Britain being enemy is the same thing. It's still enemy land no matter the choice.

[Straha]

I'd say we have Col Klink in charge if the invasion. It'd be a little less uncertian Seriously, I'd say Germany would suceed, but take outrageously heavy losses(One acronym: RAF). It's kinda sorta like the proposed attack on Japan.
On the other hand, megalomaniacs who ally then attack Russia have had a history of being allergic to an invasion of the UK

Are you going to clue us in on HOW German troops get across the Channel? On HOW the Germans supply their troops? And HOW they could get their tanks across the Channel?

It couldn't happen not because the troops were inferior, or because of the RN and RAF, but because it is a logistical nightmare and with no food and no bullet German Soldiers can't fight, no matter what the quality of the British Troops and equipment is.

[phongn]

And phongn, try telling the soldiers from Wales, Ireland and Scotland who would have been fighting on the beaches that they weren't being invaded too.

If I say someone is invading Texas, does it mean that the rest of the United States won't be fighting just as hard or that I'm somehow neglecting the rest of the nation?

[phongn]

Actually, they were designed for making war on Britain, well at the very beginning. The Navy Department looked for capable enemies in the 1930s and they quite a few plans for US vs Japan or US vs. Britain.

I know about those plans, but this is the first I've ever heard the B-36 being part of them.

It's a choice of words. Britain being occupied or Britain being enemy is the same thing. It's still enemy land no matter the choice.

It can't recall the specifics, but there may have been nuclear strike plans in case Britain fell and the US needed to root out opposition.