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Posted: 2003-06-19 10:49am
by Death from the Sea
Embracer Of Darkness wrote:You said the warp core is more powerful, but it's common knowledge that it's actually the more efficient power transfer system that makes the pulse phasers so beasty, not the core itself.
And I never said one way or another that the warp core had a direct link to the phaser output, mainly because I know it does not. We have always seen that phaser power is seperate from warp core power; here are two examples:TNG"Disaster" episode where the Ent-D hits a quantam filament and Troi is in command on the bridge, Ensign Ro dumps phaser power into the bridge consoles for power-warp core was offline. TNGmovie"Nemesis" the entire fight with the Schimitar is while the Ent-E has her warp core offline but she still has phaser power.
The reason I brought up the defiants more powerful warp core was because Knife didn't think that a defiant could generate enough power to keep up with a galaxy for shields and other power needs.

Posted: 2003-06-19 12:02pm
by Ender
Alyeska, It's my understandign that the War GCS packs 275 QTs instead of the 250 PTs carried by the Standard one. Is that correct?

And by how much were shields upgraded?

Posted: 2003-06-19 12:05pm
by Crazedwraith
Ender wrote:Alyeska, It's my understandign that the War GCS packs 275 QTs instead of the 250 PTs carried by the Standard one. Is that correct?

And by how much were shields upgraded?
it doesn't matter we're tlking bout the ent-d

Posted: 2003-06-19 12:12pm
by Ender
Crazedwraith wrote:
Ender wrote:Alyeska, It's my understandign that the War GCS packs 275 QTs instead of the 250 PTs carried by the Standard one. Is that correct?

And by how much were shields upgraded?
it doesn't matter we're tlking bout the ent-d
And I would still like my question answered.

Posted: 2003-06-19 12:32pm
by Crazedwraith
Ender wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
Ender wrote:Alyeska, It's my understandign that the War GCS packs 275 QTs instead of the 250 PTs carried by the Standard one. Is that correct?

And by how much were shields upgraded?
it doesn't matter we're tlking bout the ent-d
And I would still like my question answered.
*shrugs* sori dont know

Posted: 2003-06-19 01:49pm
by Knife
Crazedwraith wrote:
Ender wrote:Alyeska, It's my understandign that the War GCS packs 275 QTs instead of the 250 PTs carried by the Standard one. Is that correct?

And by how much were shields upgraded?
it doesn't matter we're tlking bout the ent-d
And here I thought we were talking bout the classes, each of the series craft have the almighty character shield and survive shit that none other could.

Posted: 2003-06-19 01:58pm
by Death from the Sea
Knife there has been both topics discussed Ent-D and plain-old-run-of-the-mill-galaxy so don't feel bad.

Posted: 2003-06-19 02:00pm
by Crazedwraith
Knife wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
Ender wrote:Alyeska, It's my understandign that the War GCS packs 275 QTs instead of the 250 PTs carried by the Standard one. Is that correct?

And by how much were shields upgraded?
it doesn't matter we're tlking bout the ent-d
And here I thought we were talking bout the classes, each of the series craft have the almighty character shield and survive shit that none other could.
considering the title of the thread is "USS Defiant vs USS Enterprise-D" i think were talking bout the ent-d

Posted: 2003-06-19 03:01pm
by seanrobertson
Ender wrote:Alyeska, It's my understandign that the War GCS packs 275 QTs instead of the 250 PTs carried by the Standard one. Is that correct?

And by how much were shields upgraded?
Ender,

To my knowledge, no such information exists. I do know that we've never seen a Galaxy fire quantum torpedoes, though I'm sure they could be modified to carry them.

As far as shields go, our good Alyeska and I discussed a bit about that in a thread some time ago. Shields weren't the primary topic at hand, so I don't remember the thread itself...

Basically, the idea was that a 100% increase in shield strength might take two decades to achieve. This is evident in "Yesterday's Enterprise," in which the E-D's heat dissipation rates were twice that of the E-C's (Yar tells Castillo this in so many words). Something was mentioned to loosely corroborate that train of thought, but I can't remember what :evil: Damn.

Anyway, the GCS was launched in the early 2360's. Toward the end of the Dominion War, that's roughly 15 years of potential advancements in shield technology, though passage of time itself is no guarantee of anything.

I would guess that the modern GCSs probably have shields 25%-50% stronger than the E-D's. For example, if ten Warbird pulses were required to drop the E-D's shields, at least 13-15 pulses might be needed to drop the "war GCSs'" shielding.

It's possible that shield improvements designed to counter Borg and Dominion threats sped things along such that these war-era Galaxies are better protected yet. Still, I hesitate to suggest that the aforementioned 100% increase is yet feasible, at least in the context of the GCS platform. The Sovereign is probably a different story.

A potential monkeywrench in all of this is the fact that, circa VGR, we started seeing starships use warp power for combat systems more often, increasing the energy potentially fed to those systems by an order of magnitude.

In TNG, using warp power for non-propulsive systems was occassionally discussed but rarely considered feasible to my knowledge...LaForge didn't even attempt to transfer warp power to shields in "The Nth Degree." (The "smart" Barclay did, and it saved their ass, boosting the shields by some 300%!) Using warp power through the deflector dish in "Best of Both Worlds" was deemed very dangerous.

Instead of using the warp core to juice combat systems, those first flight Galaxies relied very heavily on their fusion reactors. Riker tells us that the saucer section's reactors were much needed in a combat situation ("Best of Both Worlds"), presumably the same reactors that couldn't even generate a single terawatt for that communique in "Dauphin."

Fast-forward to late VGR, "Good Shepherd" IIRC. Torres notes that some system, perhaps a comm array?, "needs another five terawatts" to do something.

A 5 TW+ signal seems really dumb to me, but given how most starship components are galactic ginsus, I'll refrain from further disparagement right now. She's an engineer, the only character on VGR that didn't butcher SI units to my knowledge. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt where I wouldn't many others...

Anyway, VGR is TINY next to a GCS...there's simply no WAY her fusion sources could be as powerful as the E-D's. Therefore, VGR must be using warp power to feed that expensive comm array.

VGR and Defiant both frequently used the warp core to power weapons and shields, though this had to be specifically ordered, indicating that using said power source for these systems is not SOP.

This could mean that the war GCSs, which could potentially power terawatt-class shields using some of the warp core's output, have considerably superior defenses than their first-flight cousins which, at best, could maybe power their shields to the tune of a couple hundred GW--certainly less than a terawatt given Riker's "Dauphin" statement.

That doesn't necessarily mean, however, that the shields would simply be 10 times more powerful. For instance, shield emitters can't simply handle more and more power without extensive modifications, mods that might be rather difficult to make.

Besideswhich, we don't know the ratio between shield power--the energy the devices require to run at peak efficiency--and actual shield strength, that which is the amount of energy needed to blast the shield down.
For all we know, to double the shield strength, you may well have to produce ten times more power to achieve such protection. *shrugs*

So I honestly don't know...I think the 1000%/order of magnitude improvements are pretty much theoretical, very loosely supported if at all, but a mere 50% increase might be a hair too little, despite my earlier objections.

Meditate on this, I will :)

Posted: 2003-06-19 04:11pm
by The Silence and I
Seanrobertson, nice reasoning there. I would also add that despite heavy fighting during the war, no War Galaxy was ever destroyed, despite being obvious targets (Its big, dangerous and chewing us up...how about we all go shoot it together!). The Enterprise D would have lost shields inside a minute, easily, character shields and all...I mean, upgraded BoP's are a serious threat to her :shock: Jem Hadar Attack Ships seem to be in the playing field of BoP's, so they ought to be extremely dangerous to a large target like a Galaxy. The fact non were destroyed indicates a mere 50% shield increase is too small, I would not be surprised if the value is close to your high-end.

The fact the BoP's are dangerous to the E-D is the biggest reason I think the Defiant's Q-Torps would rule the day(just to stay on topic :) ).

Posted: 2003-06-19 06:55pm
by MrAnderson
Alyeska wrote: Incorrect. The Enterprise has shown near perfect accuracy with its phasers and very high levels of accuracy with its torpedoes. Furthermore the Defiant class had two rear facing Quantum Torpedo launchers.
Only in a crack smokers dreams. The Enterprise regularly misses shots at even large slow moving targets.

Yesterdays Enteprise is a good example. When jumped by the three Klingon Cruisers the Enterprise D missed with its phaser array more than once.

As for torpedoes. They appear to have abot 50% accuracy and that is against slow moving targets. A Defiant would be a hell of a target for photon torpedoes.

Posted: 2003-06-19 08:08pm
by Alyeska
MrAnderson wrote:Only in a crack smokers dreams.
Irrelevent flame
The Enterprise regularly misses shots at even large slow moving targets.
Care to provide any evidence? I have poured through all the TNG-VGR information and there are only THREE incidents of Federation ships missing with beam phasers. All three are Voyager.
Yesterdays Enteprise is a good example. When jumped by the three Klingon Cruisers the Enterprise D missed with its phaser array more than once.
And I will call you on this. Bullshit. I have watched that episode rather recently and there was 100% accuracy with the phasers.
As for torpedoes. They appear to have abot 50% accuracy and that is against slow moving targets. A Defiant would be a hell of a target for photon torpedoes.
Again, Bullshit. Federation torpedoes have shown a greater then 75% accuracy.

Are you going to continue trying to lie your way through this or are you going to debate?

Posted: 2003-06-19 11:09pm
by Ender
Sean-

Thanks. Would you happen to have a link or thread title so I can read the original debate?

Posted: 2003-06-19 11:32pm
by Alyeska
I believe this is what you were looking for.

Posted: 2003-06-19 11:53pm
by Ender
Alyeska wrote:I believe this is what you were looking for.
???????????????????????????

Posted: 2003-06-19 11:57pm
by Alyeska

Posted: 2003-06-19 11:58pm
by Howedar
Golly, being a mod you'd think he'd just have editted...

You mean like this? :P

Something like that :D
Actually it appears that one need not even be a mod to edit their posts in this forum.
I apologize in advance if I have inadvertantly stolen a mod's traditional color.

Posted: 2003-06-20 07:05am
by TurboPhaser
MrAnderson wrote:
Alyeska wrote: Incorrect. The Enterprise has shown near perfect accuracy with its phasers and very high levels of accuracy with its torpedoes. Furthermore the Defiant class had two rear facing Quantum Torpedo launchers.
Only in a crack smokers dreams. The Enterprise regularly misses shots at even large slow moving targets.

Yesterdays Enteprise is a good example. When jumped by the three Klingon Cruisers the Enterprise D missed with its phaser array more than once.

As for torpedoes. They appear to have abot 50% accuracy and that is against slow moving targets. A Defiant would be a hell of a target for photon torpedoes.
Garbage. In TNG, phasers missed almost never. True, there werent that many battles, but every one that was done, the phasers hit their targets.

It is a myth that is perpetuated constantly throughout the community.

Posted: 2003-06-30 09:45pm
by Uraniun235
I want to know how the fuck the helm officer on the Defiant is going to be able to manuever into one of those blind spots when the bridge is going to be a fireworks show from all the phaser hits they're going to take. Hell, O'Brien had to go to sickbay during a firefight... the Defiant bridge is even more dangerous than a GCS bridge!

Plus, the Defiant will be hard-pressed to stay in the blind spot (while keeping weapons trained on the GCS) if the GCS spins around like it did in "Booby Trap" to manuever around the asteroid. The Defiant hasn't exactly shown a propensity for moving laterally.

What if the GCS is carrying Danube runabouts? Granted, they aren't the hottest shit when it comes to firepower, but remote-piloting one into the Defiant while it's "parked" in the blind spot would make things interesting... and we've seen a GCS carry runabouts before.

Posted: 2003-07-01 01:31am
by Death from the Sea
Uraniun235 wrote:I want to know how the fuck the helm officer on the Defiant is going to be able to manuever into one of those blind spots when the bridge is going to be a fireworks show from all the phaser hits they're going to take. Hell, O'Brien had to go to sickbay during a firefight... the Defiant bridge is even more dangerous than a GCS bridge!

That is an gross generalisation. I can argue that Riker(manning the tactical weapons console) was killed in "Yesterdays Enterprise" by and exploding console, so what is the Ent-D going to do when it's bridge officers start dying in battle. Plus I don't believe that the Ent-D ever saw the kind of action that the Defiant did.
Plus, the Defiant will be hard-pressed to stay in the blind spot (while keeping weapons trained on the GCS) if the GCS spins around like it did in "Booby Trap" to manuever around the asteroid. The Defiant hasn't exactly shown a propensity for moving laterally.
The Ent-D wasn't exactly spinning on a dime there plus IIRC the Ent-D was using the gravity of the asteroid to fling itself out of the trap, not exactly combat manuevers. The Defiant is far more manueverable than the Ent-D.
What if the GCS is carrying Danube runabouts? Granted, they aren't the hottest shit when it comes to firepower, but remote-piloting one into the Defiant while it's "parked" in the blind spot would make things interesting... and we've seen a GCS carry runabouts before.
The only time the Ent-D carried runabout was when it was dropping them off for DS9, other than that it was limited to it's shuttles. Besides ramming with runabouts or shuttles is not a tactic that Starfleet has been shown to use and I doubt that they would be able to do it. By it I mean rig a shuttle/runabout to be remotely controlled before the Defiant destroys the ship.

Posted: 2003-07-01 03:11am
by HappyTarget
I want to know how the fuck the helm officer on the Defiant is going to be able to manuever into one of those blind spots when the bridge is going to be a fireworks show from all the phaser hits they're going to take. Hell, O'Brien had to go to sickbay during a firefight... the Defiant bridge is even more dangerous than a GCS bridge!
So a lone bridge officer gets injured in one of how many fire fights the Defiant was in? Also, look at how much LONGER the Defiant was in a fire fight before O'Brien was injured. The Defiant's bridge may turn into a fireworks show, but only AFTER it's been in an engagement far longer than any battle seen in TNG.
Plus, the Defiant will be hard-pressed to stay in the blind spot (while keeping weapons trained on the GCS) if the GCS spins around like it did in "Booby Trap" to manuever around the asteroid. The Defiant hasn't exactly shown a propensity for moving laterally.
:) Small problem grasshopper. The E-D didn't use her engines to perform that manuver. She used said asteroids gravity to slingshot her around it. The whole point of the manuver was that she DIDN'T HAVE ANY ENGINES TO USE. Which means that it isn't part of the standard set of manuvering options, especially in battle conditions. Under power, the E-D near allways handles like a pig for course changes (which is dumb because she should be able to pull 180s like she did in TNG "EaF") The Defiant on the other hand, we have seen pull some pretty tight hairpin turns while in battle. Defiant shall have little to no trouble staying in the E-D's blindspots.
What if the GCS is carrying Danube runabouts? Granted, they aren't the hottest shit when it comes to firepower, but remote-piloting one into the Defiant while it's "parked" in the blind spot would make things interesting... and we've seen a GCS carry runabouts before.
1) E-D doesn't carry Runabouts as standard
2) E-D has never shown the capability of remotely piloting shuttles, even when it should be the first thing done (IIRC epp where E-D kids are trying out for Starfleet Academy and one washes out so he steals a shuttle and nearly kills himself)
Only in a crack smokers dreams. The Enterprise regularly misses shots at even large slow moving targets.
I would ask you to back up your claim rather than make unsupportable statements.
Yesterdays Enteprise is a good example. When jumped by the three Klingon Cruisers the Enterprise D missed with its phaser array more than once.
1) No it didn't
2) Yesterdays Enterprise is not a good example of E-D weapons accuracy, as she wasn't the REAL E-D (as evidenced by the fact that she's a better warship with tougher shields than the canon version)

Posted: 2003-07-01 06:51am
by TurboPhaser
2) Yesterdays Enterprise is not a good example of E-D weapons accuracy, as she wasn't the REAL E-D (as evidenced by the fact that she's a better warship with tougher shields than the canon version)
Well, technically the YE Enterprise is canon, just a a different canon. :shock:

Grrr, there's no confused smilie. :cry:

Posted: 2003-07-01 12:16pm
by Sothis
TurboPhaser wrote:The Defiants pulse phasers may be more powerfull than a phaser array, but the GCS's have more than one. They have 10 - 12 arrays and strips.

Let us backtrack to the incident with the Lakota and the Defiant. The Lakota was a super Excelsior. The upgrades on it probably made it equal to a Galaxy. The Lakota and the Defiant both did equal amounts of damage to each other. There was a spot at the end when it was stated that one more shot by either vessel would finish the target ship off.

I reckon they are a match.
Actually, it was stated that the Lakota was in a worse condition, that one shot would finish them, but I don't remember the same comment being made about the Defiant.

Posted: 2003-07-01 01:54pm
by FOG3
In ST:FC didn't the Defiant take multiple full power shots from the cube without shields on the same spot remaining quite intact while the bigger ships were getting sliced and diced by the same weapons once their shields failed? Can we assume a phaser on the E-D is not anywhere as powerful as that on a Borg cube? Then phasers shouldn't be that great a threat especially as they are unlikely to hit the same area multiple times and PTs should be easily enough dodged with a follow up of QTs for their trouble. I'm going with the tough little ship here.