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The Silence and I wrote: What? Did the phasers become weaker by orders of magnitude? Unlikely. The only difference was this ship, the Ent-nil, had SIF, which reduced the damage greatly. A powerless hull would indeed be damaged severly by a low KT explosion, but a powered hull? Probably not.

And, of course, its a totally different type of ship (not to mention it bears not the slightest similarity to a Klingon warship!), not to mention a newer one

You also assume that Khan knew his stuff as well as a Starfleet crew. If an untrained goon can utilize a starship as well as a trained crew, one wonders what exactly the training encompasses.

Vexx wrote:Secondly, that is an F-104C, which does not carry the Genie. It carries the Mk-28 which has a warhead of 1 megaton, not 1.5 kilotons. F-104's only carried Mk-28s.

Therefore your estimation of 75 kiloton max should be 50 megatons.

The Mark 28 has a variable yield of between 500 kilotons and 1.1 megatons. However it is a gravity bomb which can be dropped in either free-fall or parachute-retarded modes depending on the mission profile -- there is absolutely, positively NO way the Enterprise could have been attacked using that weapon. The AIR-2 Genie rocket is the only nuclear air-to-air weapon ever deployed by the United States; hence, it is the the only nuclear weapon that could have possibly been fired at the Enterprise by that interceptor.

Even if Spock did not know this, the historical database on the Enterprise should have -- and if the information was lost during World War III, he *still* should have been able to extrapolate a maximum possible weapons yield of no more than five to ten kilotons.

Actually, there's a second nuclear air-to-air weapon that was deployed by the U.S.--the AIM-4 Falcon with a nuclear tip. The yield for this is commonly stated as 0.25 kT, though I've seen other yields listed for the warhead which are higher. I'm checking on the possibility of a late mark F-104 lugging one of these right now.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Actually, there's a second nuclear air-to-air weapon that was deployed by the U.S.--the AIM-4 Falcon with a nuclear tip. The yield for this is commonly stated as 0.25 kT, though I've seen other yields listed for the warhead which are higher. I'm checking on the possibility of a late mark F-104 lugging one of these right now.

The nuclear AIM-4 used the W-54 warhead, which had three variants yielding 10 to 20 tons, 250 tons and 10 tons to 1 kiloton. However only the 250-ton version was used on the missile. The first variant was for the Davy Crocket and that last one was the hand emplaced Atomic Demolition Munition.

The Silence and I wrote:Spock clearly was lacking in his knowledge of the weapons from that time period. He identified the F-104_ as an interceptor, when it wasn't. He stated said craft may carry a nuclear warhead, and does carry missiles: "Aircraft is an interceptor. Equipped with missiles, possibly armed with nuclear warheads." When he should know that the F-104_ does not carry nuclear missiles, but that the F-104c carries a nuclear bomb. Given this, I doubt he even knows what a Genie is, let alone its exact yield. And do you err on the side of caution? YES!! YOU DO, IT IS LOGICAL!!! So, for all he knows the missiles could have been a dozen KT or maybie, though not likely, more. He really should know it would be low KT at most, but he would assume the high-end of what he thinks they could be capable of, as he has already shown that he does not in fact know for sure.

It's fairly absurd to argue that Spock couldn't have known the yield of the device. Back in the 1980's the Swedish where able to pass along side a grounded Soviet sub in a zodiac and collect sufficient data to determine that the sub was carrying two five kiloton nuclear torpedoes.

So do you wish to argue that the Enterprise has sensors, which are inferior in the atmospheric taking readings through the thin case of a missile compared to those of 1980's Sweden working through several inches of steel sub hull?

Guess I'll play devil's advocate here...

Do we know if the Enterprise's sensors were adversely affected by the black hole? If they were, then they may not have been able to do detailed scans beyond determining that there was a rapidly approaching inbound aircraft...

Spock DID NOT KNOW what armament the fighter was carrying; he said "possibly nuclear".

Spock DID NOT KNOW what armament the fighter was carrying; he said "possibly nuclear".

He DID know that it COULD have nuclear weapons. This means that he either, A: did a quick check in the databanks, or B: made a wild, baseless assumption.

Are you trying to claim that Spock is irrational?

Uraniun235 wrote:Spock DID NOT KNOW what armament the fighter was carrying; he said "possibly nuclear".

Thus the Enterprise's radiological sensors are no better than those today, and possibly inferior.

Aircraft is an interceptor. Equipped with missiles, possibly armed with nuclear warheads.

This sentence structure is pretty clear. If this is being accurately represented from that in the episode, it indicates that Spock thought the missiles were possibly armed with nuclear warheads. So far I have found at least one explanation for this: The F-104G could carry nuclear Bullpups. Those were, however, air-to-ground missiles, not air-to-air missiles, but if Spock was relying purely on sensor data he may have been unable to discern that.

Howedar wrote:

Uraniun235 wrote:Spock DID NOT KNOW what armament the fighter was carrying; he said "possibly nuclear".

Thus the Enterprise's radiological sensors are no better than those today, and possibly inferior.

Or they were damaged.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: The F-104G could carry nuclear Bullpups. Those were, however, air-to-ground missiles, not air-to-air missiles, but if Spock was relying purely on sensor data he may have been unable to discern that.

They also only yield 15 kilotons maximum, an improvement certainly but not much of one.

Sea Skimmer wrote:
They also only yield 15 kilotons maximum, an improvement certainly but not much of one.

G model could handle two Bullpups, so that would suggest that Spock thought, as an upper limit for this situation, one grants, two 15 kT omnidirectional nuclear warheads could inflict damage to the E-nil.

Uraniun235 wrote:

Howedar wrote:

Uraniun235 wrote:Spock DID NOT KNOW what armament the fighter was carrying; he said "possibly nuclear".

Thus the Enterprise's radiological sensors are no better than those today, and possibly inferior.

Or they were damaged.

AFAIK there is zero precident for you to assume that any sensors were operating at less than peak capability.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Actually, there's a second nuclear air-to-air weapon that was deployed by the U.S.--the AIM-4 Falcon with a nuclear tip. The yield for this is commonly stated as 0.25 kT, though I've seen other yields listed for the warhead which are higher. I'm checking on the possibility of a late mark F-104 lugging one of these right now.

Pulling out my old but trusty copy of The Illustrated Encyclopedia of the World's Rockets & Missiles, we find the AIM-47A variant of the Falcon missile. It was supposed to equip the F-108 Rapier interceptor. After the Rapier was cancelled in 1959, the missile program was transfered over to the YF-12A Blackbird test project (interceptor version of the SR-71). Stats for the missile are:

length: 126 in (3.2 meters)
max speed: mach 6
range: 115 miles (213 km)
guidance: semi-active radar homing plus IR terminal homing
warhead: this website http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f12.html claims 250 kT.

OTOH, they only built about 80 of the AIM-47s, and there were only 3 Blackbirds converted over to the F-12 configuration. Plus, that wasn't a Blackbird that showed in the episode.

Sabastian Tombs wrote:
Pulling out my old but trusty copy of The Illustrated Encyclopedia of the World's Rockets & Missiles, we find the AIM-47A variant of the Falcon missile. It was supposed to equip the F-108 Rapier interceptor. After the Rapier was cancelled in 1959, the missile program was transfered over to the YF-12A Blackbird test project (interceptor version of the SR-71). Stats for the missile are:

length: 126 in (3.2 meters)
max speed: mach 6
range: 115 miles (213 km)
guidance: semi-active radar homing plus IR terminal homing
warhead: this website http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f12.html claims 250 kT.

OTOH, they only built about 80 of the AIM-47s, and there were only 3 Blackbirds converted over to the F-12 configuration. Plus, that wasn't a Blackbird that showed in the episode.

The Falcon is the AIM-4 series. The AIM-47 was a derivative, but much different, as seen here:

AIM-47/GAR-9

- Only about eighty were built, and though a nuclear-armed variant was envisioned, not even a test model was produced. The design did, however, serve as a prototype for the AIM-54 Phoenix.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
The Falcon is the AIM-4 series. The AIM-47 was a derivative, but much different, as seen here:

It's about six times heavier among other things. The weight and drag would impose massive performance penalties on an F-104 and take any form of high altitude interception mission out of the question. The F-104 was designed to carry a couple sidewinders after all, and even with just those range was horrible.

Anyway, the weapon which yielded 250 kilotons wasn't the AIM-47, it was the AGM-76 which used the same airframe and motor but was a ground attack weapon. The nuclear warhead envisions for the AIM-47 was to be the W-42 which was canacled in favor of the W-54 which is the same .25-kiloton weapon found on the basic Falcon.

So this changes squat.

Spock could have been assuming the entire thing. He could have gone temporarily insane. He might have known that nuclear weapons were common around the period in time they were in, and discerned simply based on a nuclear weapon that the Enterprise could be seriously damaged if attacked.

Of course it would be hilarious if the Enterprise was downed with a couple of Sidewinders. Rofl. "Scratch one.. one.. saucer with wierd tubes!"

Howedar wrote:AFAIK there is zero precident for you to assume that any sensors were operating at less than peak capability.

Yeah, you've got a point, the whole ship being slow to respond couldn't possibly mean that the ship was damaged in any way.

Vexx wrote:Of course it would be hilarious if the Enterprise was downed with a couple of Sidewinders. Rofl. "Scratch one.. one.. saucer with wierd tubes!"

That would certainly throw the results of the ID4 vs Star Trek debate into question

Just playing DA here: Doesnt' Wayne have a page dedicated to how Spock is an idiot who can't be trusted as a source?

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Actually, there's a second nuclear air-to-air weapon that was deployed by the U.S.--the AIM-4 Falcon with a nuclear tip. The yield for this is commonly stated as 0.25 kT, though I've seen other yields listed for the warhead which are higher. I'm checking on the possibility of a late mark F-104 lugging one of these right now.

The AIM-26 Falcon was the only guided nuclear-armed air-to-air missile ever deployed by the USAF. Development of a nuclear-armed derivative of the AIM-4 Falcon family was first planned in 1956, when Hughes was contracted to develop the XGAR-5 and XGAR-6 missiles. These missiles were intended to be significantly larger than the standard Falcon (length/diameter increased from 2.0m/0.16m (80 in/6.4 in) to about 3.5m/0.30m (140 in/ 12in)), and were to be used against high and fast-flying missiles and bombers. The two variants were identical, except for the guidance method - semi-active radar homing for the XGAR-5, and infrared homing for the XGAR-6. However, development was cancelled early in the design phase.

Development of a nuclear-armed Falcon derivative started again in 1959, when it was decided that USAF interceptors needed a head-on kill capability against enemy bombers. This dictated radar homing (IR seekers of the day could only home on hot exhaust), but this was considered too inaccurate for a conventionally armed missile. Therefore a low-yield W-54 (0.25 kT) nuclear warhead was planned for the missile, which was designated as GAR-11.

The GAR-11 was slightly larger, and significantly heavier than the original Falcon. Testing of the XGAR-11 proceded without problems during 1960, and in 1961, the GAR-11 became operational with F-102 interceptors. The nuclear warhead, and the inherent all-weather capability of the SARH guidance made the GAR-11 the most powerful air-to-air missile ever deployed. Detonation of the warhead was triggered by a radar proximity fuze.

However, the nuclear warhead also had a major disadvantage - the missile could not be used against low-flying aircraft over friendly territory. Therefore the conventionally armed GAR-11A was developed in parallel. The GAR-11A was relatively little used by the USAF, but was exported to Sweden (and license-built there) as RB-27.

In 1963, the GAR-11 Falcon missiles were redesignated in the AIM-26 series. The XGAR-11, GAR-11, and GAR-11A became the XAIM-26A, AIM-26A, and AIM-26B, respectively.

Improvements in radar-homing in the late 1960's made the AIM-7 Sparrow missile effective in frontal attacks. This fact, together with the AIM-26A's unsuitability against low-level threats, led to a quick phase-out, and by 1971 the AIM-26A was no longer in service. The Swedish RB-27 (AIM-26B) served until the early 1980's. In total, about 4000 AIM-26 missiles of both variants were produced.

Ender wrote:Just playing DA here: Doesnt' Wayne have a page dedicated to how Spock is an idiot who can't be trusted as a source?

He does indeed

http://h4h.com/louis/spock.html

Uraniun235 wrote:

Howedar wrote:AFAIK there is zero precident for you to assume that any sensors were operating at less than peak capability.

Yeah, you've got a point, the whole ship being slow to respond couldn't possibly mean that the ship was damaged in any way.

In other words, you can demonstrate that the ship was physically sluggish, perhaps from a lack of power. But by your snide comment, it is obvious that you can't actually support the idea that the sensors were weakened, because otherwise you would just prove me wrong.

Concession accepted.

Howedar wrote:

The Silence and I wrote: What? Did the phasers become weaker by orders of magnitude? Unlikely. The only difference was this ship, the Ent-nil, had SIF, which reduced the damage greatly. A powerless hull would indeed be damaged severly by a low KT explosion, but a powered hull? Probably not.

And, of course, its a totally different type of ship (not to mention it bears not the slightest similarity to a Klingon warship!), not to mention a newer one

You also assume that Khan knew his stuff as well as a Starfleet crew. If an untrained goon can utilize a starship as well as a trained crew, one wonders what exactly the training encompasses.

Whoah, you showed me Look, I am sorry, but that is a stupid argument there. A Klingon D-7 is nearly a match for the Enterprise nil as of TOS. The Enterprise phaserized a large, powerless (metal ) object with four hits in rapid succession. A few years later the upgraded D-7 is still a threat to the upgraded Enterprise nil... things haven't changed much, have they (Everything is relative, after all)? Then The Reliant hit the still powered Enterprise nil with a sustained phaser burst (Well, several actually ) causing limited damage. Now, ignoring the funky phaserization thing I'll do some simple numbers for you (For comparison, you see):
Mass of D-7: 120,000 tons (according to the Star Trek Starship Spotter, it ain't cannon, but will do). Making the silly assumtion this is all iron the energy for vaporization is (at 415.5+/-1.3 KJ per mole from a starting temp. of 298 K) a whopping 212.7 KT...equivalent energy (Phasers, not DET). So per shot energy is 53.2 KT, with a standard frontside of 106.4 KT. None too shabby there, now, TWOK;
Mike Wong did a good job on this, so I will just present his conclusions:

phasers appear to destroy less than 5 cubic metres of starship armor per second of continuous impact, so they seem to be tactically equivalent to 1-10 TW lasers.

Wow. The difference is staggering! 10 TW is 2.4 KT at the high end, the low end of 1 TW gives a mere 238.1 Tons of TNT equivalent energy!!! So, Howedar, which is more likely?
A) SIF allows for the huge difference (My explaination) or,
B) (Yours) Starfleet hulls are more than one to two orders of magnitude tougher than Klingon hulls/Starfleet can improve its hulls by one to two orders of magnitude every few years/Khan's lack of knowledge (He knew right where to hits us, keptain (paraphrase)!! ) makes his phasers one to two orders of magnitude weaker than Kirks... oh, wait... Kirks did very similar damage
<You decide.>