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Stravo wrote:When AOTC first came out it was so obvious that here were the stormtroopers in their infancy but then we had a contingent of people who were EU fanatics that cried about how that was not possible, it invalidated much of the EU, etc. The debates with them on the issue have left a very bad taste in my mouth when it comes to EU fanboyz pissing on the artists' vision because it doesn't fit their EU world vision.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Its left a bad taste in my mouth how you analyze movies and stories by your personal taste in writing and then act as if it is even in the same league as logical analysis. I can cite numerous examples: how Palpatine CAN'T be allowed to come back, even though ROTJ was originally meant to deal with Vader but Palpatine was going to live on and be confronted by Luke and sis later, exactly like DE, for example this clone thing, and for example your "Palpatine must not need a lightsabre" and you invented Force lightning that doesn't exist to fit your opinion. I dislike how you force artifical constraints on the SW Saga based on your own personal feelings of the story in SW and your leaps in logic from the theme and such.

I analyze the movies as a writer and the kid that first saw those movies. It's not logoical many times you're absolutely right and I have never insisted otherwise when confronted with a logical point. We have the Palpatine's saber issue. So Far in the movies Palpatine is never shown with a lightsaber. (Barring Ep. III) Looking at the movies as GL's utlimate vision I just assume, what makes a more powerful villain, one who transcends the use of the lightsaber? Yeah, he bitchslapepd Luke and kept Vader on a leash for twenty years. That's power. Now if the EU did not mention a lightsaber would someone saying Palpatine must have a saber not draw the ire of those that can point to the films and say he never had one in the movies and doesn't need one? I am more interested in the DRAMA of the story and not the logic. Not popular with the others here but heck, it's me.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Attack of the Clones itself never proved anything about Stormtroopers. In itself, AOTC showed that a secret alien contractor could produce 1.2 million clones in 10 years all identical and based on a single man.

None of those criteria were consistent with the canon reality of the Original Trilogy. Even now, the Stormtroopers are mostly clones, but certainly not the Clonetroopers, and AOTC is not the birth of the Stormtroopers. Both forces have different purposes and radically different scales..

We don't really know that yet. Ep III is the missing ingredient. If Palpatine declares that the Clonetroopers will now be Stromtroopers and be his personal elite guard, what does that do to the assertion that they cannot be the same. I AGREE with you about the numbers. Stormtroopers numbering in the millions is LUDICROUS (yes it breaks my drama deal because it is so over the top) It was far better in my opinion when numbers were never mentioned in OT. Did we know what a Legion of troops numbered in ROTJ ?(sans EU) No GL let us fill in the gaps in our minds.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Naturally you ignored all this because the "literary foreshadowing" and "artist's intent" was transcendent to the stark reality of what was in the films to you.

I far more enjoy analysing the intent of an author and looking for foreshadowing than crunching numbers and looking at the logic of a certain situation. I am more than willing to accept certain things from GL (yes even Greedo shooting first) than the oppressive regime of those that discount the artist's original vision in exchange for having things jibe with stories not written by the author by others who did not know what was going on in the author's mind or what he intended in the future.

Also one question WHY bother foreshadowing and creating damatic tension if you're GL if EU folks will shoot it down as unworkable?

Stravo wrote:I analyze the movies as a writer and the kid that first saw those movies. It's not logoical many times you're absolutely right and I have never insisted otherwise when confronted with a logical point.

Yet you ignore numerous logical points raised about the infeasibility of a pure clone-based army?

We don't really know that yet. Ep III is the missing ingredient. If Palpatine declares that the Clonetroopers will now be Stromtroopers and be his personal elite guard, what does that do to the assertion that they cannot be the same.

It would mean that all the clonetroopers became stormtroopers. It does not mean that all stormtroopers must also be clones. Fallacy of composition: if all Chinese are communists, it doesn't mean all communists are Chinese.

I AGREE with you about the numbers. Stormtroopers numbering in the millions is LUDICROUS (yes it breaks my drama deal because it is so over the top).

It's OK if they are viewed as a SpecOps force of some sort.

I far more enjoy analysing the intent of an author and looking for foreshadowing than crunching numbers and looking at the logic of a certain situation.

Mind-reading is not exactly a reliable technique.

I am more than willing to accept certain things from GL (yes even Greedo shooting first) than the oppressive regime of those that discount the artist's original vision in exchange for having things jibe with stories not written by the author by others who did not know what was going on in the author's mind or what he intended in the future.

Who cares what's going on in the author's mind, since you have no way of knowing it, and he can change his mind at will anyway? All you can do is look at what he created.

Darth Wong wrote:

Stravo wrote:I analyze the movies as a writer and the kid that first saw those movies. It's not logoical many times you're absolutely right and I have never insisted otherwise when confronted with a logical point.

Yet you ignore numerous logical points raised about the infeasibility of a pure clone-based army?

How unfeasable is it? We have mile long ships toting around hypermatter reactors, FTL, teraton level weaponary, etc.

Technologically just as we trust they can over come the difficulties of power generation, FTL, and physics in general why can we also not trust that the clone issue can also be solved in terms of economic feasability?

Stravo wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:

Stravo wrote:I analyze the movies as a writer and the kid that first saw those movies. It's not logoical many times you're absolutely right and I have never insisted otherwise when confronted with a logical point.

Yet you ignore numerous logical points raised about the infeasibility of a pure clone-based army?

How unfeasable is it? We have mile long ships toting around hypermatter reactors, FTL, teraton level weaponary, etc.

Irrelevant. Super-technology does not change the incredible inflexibility conferred by a 10-year personnel procurement delay.

Technologically just as we trust they can over come the difficulties of power generation, FTL, and physics in general why can we also not trust that the clone issue can also be solved in terms of economic feasability?

No. 10 years is 10 years, even if they have hypermatter.

Stravo wrote:We have the Palpatine's saber issue. So Far in the movies Palpatine is never shown with a lightsaber. (Barring Ep. III) Looking at the movies as GL's utlimate vision I just assume, what makes a more powerful villain, one who transcends the use of the lightsaber?

He's old and feable. His weapon in the movies is clearly manipulation. That's his everything in ROTJ, TPM, and AOTC.

Stravo wrote:Yeah, he bitchslapepd Luke and kept Vader on a leash for twenty years.

Nice analysis. Its clear Palpatine was overconfident that Vader was psychologically in Palpatine's thrall. Weapons or something has hollow as "oh who would win if they were thrown in a ring" never seemed to be the source of Palpatine's power from an pure canon perspective. The movies clearly show that Palpatine's edge is pure psychological manipulation of other people.

Stravo wrote:That's power. Now if the EU did not mention a lightsaber would someone saying Palpatine must have a saber not draw the ire of those that can point to the films and say he never had one in the movies and doesn't need one?

Nah, just that every Sith is trained on the lightsabre and Maul and Tyranus clearly were. Palpatine never encountered a situation where sabre fighting was either feasable (frailty) or necessary in the movies. You're making a creationist-style "we have to see it!" demand, even though both EU and movies agree Sith wield lightsabres. Even Palpatine was a young and strong man and an apprentice at one point.

Stravo wrote:I am more interested in the DRAMA of the story and not the logic. Not popular with the others here but heck, it's me.

Than concede when it is in-contradiction with the logical reality of the films.

Stravo wrote:We don't really know that yet. Ep III is the missing ingredient. If Palpatine declares that the Clonetroopers will now be Stromtroopers and be his personal elite guard, what does that do to the assertion that they cannot be the same.

Argument from Ignorance. It doesn't fucking matter in a debate unless its been observed yet.

And even so, unless they announce that all the Stormtrooper will be grown the same way from Kamino from Jango Fett's DNA, it still will disprove it, because EU and canon visuals insist non-Jango clones and recruits. Even if your supposition is correct, unless GL specifically says that all the Stormies will be Kaminoan clones of Jango, it will still be the EU Stormies replacing the AOTC Clones.

Stravo wrote:I AGREE with you about the numbers. Stormtroopers numbering in the millions is LUDICROUS (yes it breaks my drama deal because it is so over the top) It was far better in my opinion when numbers were never mentioned in OT. Did we know what a Legion of troops numbered in ROTJ ?(sans EU) No GL let us fill in the gaps in our minds.

Needless to say, you haven't debated a thing yet.

Attack of the Clones and the Original Star Wars Trilogy viewed from a totally sterile movie canon analysis perspective, says that Clonetroopers may be the conceptual ancestor of the Stormtroopers, but demands that they are not the same. You consistently refuse to address this, and bring up stuff in a movie which hasn't been filmed yet, and have no lucid argument in rebuttal.

Stravo wrote:I far more enjoy analysing the intent of an author and looking for foreshadowing than crunching numbers and looking at the logic of a certain situation. I am more than willing to accept certain things from GL (yes even Greedo shooting first) than the oppressive regime of those that discount the artist's original vision in exchange for having things jibe with stories not written by the author by others who did not know what was going on in the author's mind or what he intended in the future.

Wow. Too bad canon as it exists says that Clonetroopers != Stormtroopers, and the EU is a valid part of the SW series and as such must not be discounted.

Your subjective opinions are not an arbiter of the SW Saga.

Stravo wrote:Also one question WHY bother foreshadowing and creating damatic tension if you're GL if EU folks will shoot it down as unworkable?

Maybe because AOTC and the OT agree that Clonetroopers as seen != Stormtroopers.

Stravo wrote:How unfeasable is it? We have mile long ships toting around hypermatter reactors, FTL, teraton level weaponary, etc.

Technologically just as we trust they can over come the difficulties of power generation, FTL, and physics in general why can we also not trust that the clone issue can also be solved in terms of economic feasability?

I love this.

Its the brand of logic used to toss out sense constantly. What the Empire should have more than 25,000 ISDs since the Death Star is worth 24 million?...toss...the Unknown Regions are logical because its a whole galaxy (these individuals invariably don't listen to anything to do with the actual reality of galactic colonialization over ~100,000 year period)...hypermatter and ISDs = anything goes in sci-fi.

Basically the total ignorance of Suspension of Disbelief because "weird shit happens." That they can suspend any part of physics they want just because there are other, highly specific exceptions.

C'mon IP it's a valid question (not assertion, as you can see the questionmark). If the Republic now Empire can advance technologically between the Clone wars to what we saw in OT whose to say that the Kaminoans haven't doscovered a way to cut the aging process down to say 2-3 years? I know you're going to say its not in the EU but until Ep. III we don't really know.

Stravo wrote:C'mon IP it's a valid question (not assertion, as you can see the questionmark). If the Republic now Empire can advance technologically between the Clone wars to what we saw in OT whose to say that the Kaminoans haven't doscovered a way to cut the aging process down to say 2-3 years? I know you're going to say its not in the EU but until Ep. III we don't really know.

Oh goody. We took unexpectedly heavy losses in our latest engagement. We need more men! Lucky for us it will only take 3 years to get them ...

Stravo wrote:If the Republic now Empire can advance technologically between the Clone wars to what we saw in OT whose to say that the Kaminoans haven't doscovered a way to cut the aging process down to say 2-3 years? I know you're going to say its not in the EU but until Ep. III we don't really know.

Do you have passionate love interests with the Argument from Ignorance and Shifting the Burden of Proof Fallacies?

WE SEE THAT IT TAKES 10 YEARS AND PRODUCES TOTALLY IDENTICAL CLONES. THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON YOU TO JUSTIFY OTHERWISE.

And how did they technologically advance from the PT and OT? (Another Unjustified Assertion).

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stravo wrote:If the Republic now Empire can advance technologically between the Clone wars to what we saw in OT whose to say that the Kaminoans haven't doscovered a way to cut the aging process down to say 2-3 years? I know you're going to say its not in the EU but until Ep. III we don't really know.

Do you have passionate love interests with the Argument from Ignorance and Shifting the Burden of Proof Fallacies?

WE SEE THAT IT TAKES 10 YEARS AND PRODUCES TOTALLY IDENTICAL CLONES. THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON YOU TO JUSTIFY OTHERWISE.

And how did they technologically advance from the PT and OT? (Another Unjustified Assertion).

You're right...they were in a technological stasis.

Darth Wong wrote:

Stravo wrote:C'mon IP it's a valid question (not assertion, as you can see the questionmark). If the Republic now Empire can advance technologically between the Clone wars to what we saw in OT whose to say that the Kaminoans haven't doscovered a way to cut the aging process down to say 2-3 years? I know you're going to say its not in the EU but until Ep. III we don't really know.

Oh goody. We took unexpectedly heavy losses in our latest engagement. We need more men! Lucky for us it will only take 3 years to get them ...

Is that any different than if the SEALS or Green Berets take heavy losses? Training time is 6 months. (assuming the Stormies are special forces which I always assumed they were)

Stravo wrote:Is that any different than if the SEALS or Green Berets take heavy losses? Training time is 6 months. (assuming the Stormies are special forces which I always assumed they were)

Well since you chose the canon-only perspective, the Stormtroopers are the Imperial Army.

Even in the EU they are the Marines. They are high-level grunts.

EDIT: And you still have yet to post proof for your Arguments from Ignorance.

IP I said that there is no proof that there was a new method of creating clones. i merely added that until Ep. III we don't REALLY know. Once the prequels are all done we have a total picture of everything and we can debate away on these issues without GL's intrusion with his new ideas or visions.

Otherwise I concede the point that I am now just making assertions based on possibilties and hardly the grist for a true debate.

Stravo wrote:Otherwise I concede the point that I am now just making assertions based on possibilties and hardly the grist for a true debate.

Hence the derision with your labeling all those who dislike the Clonetroopers = Stormtrooper idea because it is contradicted by the movies themselves, and further damaged by the EU.

Simply put, it is offensive to label people merely for not conceding to your perspective when you're interpretation is wholely subjective and contradicted by the movies' reality.

You're calling me and others EU fanboys because we do not feel constrained by your subjective interpretation of the literary aspects of Star Wars over the canon reality.

IP, I've made the point that my main problem was that people did not want to accept that the Clonetroopers would become the stomrtroopers. Now I may be having a disconnect here but what exactly is your problem with me standing by the assertion that this was GL's intent in AOTC backed by his commentary. You were here during those debates, people REFUSED to believe that, you and I came to an understanding and you brought me around to agree with you on your position that the core of the future stormtroopers were clones.

So what exactly are you pissed at me for (aside from being too artistic in my analysis ) when I harangue those that would not accept that Stormtroopers ARE clones. Those are the ones I'm attacking, forgive me for not seeing the issue between you and I. We're on the same page as far as I know.

Stravo wrote:*snip*

The issue comes with the seemingly condescending labeling of those who think it is an idiotic idea and subject to change to do George Lucas' notorious unreliability.

Furthermore, I sincerely doubt that he's going to mutter something like "all clones will hence forth come from Kamino and supply the whole Stormtroopers."

The "GeNodes" that make up the clone Stormtroopers are not much like Kaminoan clones. They're manufactured quite quickly, and artificially delude themselves into memories of recruitment, a real life, and family. While some training maybe required, they simply mostly fit from combat fresh out of the tank. Troopers-ready-to-deploy, just add water!

Quite the different animal from the canon Clonetroopers.

Stravo wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Stravo wrote:There are purists (the truth knowers) and EU Bitches (The fanboyz) and it is a never ending struggle between the two on truth.

There are movie masturbators (like Darkstar and Bob Brown ), and completists of various degrees (Mike Wong, myself, HDS, etc).

Some of us understand GL's statements and LFL's incredibly simple instructions.



Oh boy oh boy are afraid of GL's Clonetroopers-cum-Stormtroopers! All 1.2 million of them!

Oh...wait...

See Illuminatus that's why I'm an EU cherrypicker. Take what I like discard the rest. It is patently absurd that there are only 1.2 million clones. The Death star alone later on would have housed something like a quarter of the entire Stormtrooper corps if that were the case.

Actually, on the numbers, (this has probably been brought up before, but what the hell) according to the ISB there are more storm troopers then men in the navy and army combined.

Darth Wong wrote:It's not just EU fanaticism. The idea of every soldier being a clone is stupid. The per-unit cost would be astronomical compared to conventional recruitment, and a 10 year personnel procurement delay is totally unacceptable unless you can actually plan your troop requirements 10 years in advance.

True, but in this case, Darth Sideous did plan his troop requirments ten years in advance. We did see clones in various stages of development, so there is probably a new batch of clones ready every couple of months or year.

Though I think they would supplement the clones with regular troops if casualty rates were rather high.

/me sobs...no my precious Caridia....

Stravo wrote:

Bug-Eyed Earl wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Suck my completist cock, purist bitches.

Eh?

Don't mind Illuminatus he's just cranky....but for you EU bitches...CLONETROOPERS=STORMTROOPERS BABY!!!! Take Caridia and shove it up your whiney little GL ruined the EU asses!!!!!!

That is an interesting, if completely unwarranted, conclusion. Consider, for example, that all the film-related materials, such as the Inside the Worlds book, are quite clear that the clonetroopers of the Grand Army of the Republic were not simply decanted, but also actually trained by their Kaminoan creators. The fact that the troopers are clones does not obviate the need for training facilities.

This is especially interesting, because in the Core Edition of HoloNet News, dated 14:7:02 (contained in Star Wars Insider issue 68), there is contained a headline stating quite flatly, "Carida Facilities Deemed Fit for Clone Training".

In keeping with the promulgated policies regarding canon and continuity, this is an authentic part of the history of Star Wars; absent a contradiction -- contradiction, mind you, not inconsistency -- with a more authoritative source, it is an established, canonical fact that the Military Academy at Carida was able to provide training for clonetroopers. How do you support your claim that Carida is rendered non-canonical by Mr McCallum's remarks?

Publius

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I'd like to see Sate Pestage. And performed by David Warner, if I could choose. The only possible problem is that by the time the X-wing novels/comics era EU rolls around, he'll end up as an ancient old man. But that might depend on how old he's depicted as in those sources (I've never read them).

In the X-wing novels Sate Pestage looked slightly less wrinkled than Palpatine did in ROTJ.

Hopefully the appearance is Garm Bel Iblis.

Lord Pounder wrote:What about Daala? Maybe we'll see her as Tarkin's assistant. She was sent into the Maw with her 4 ISD's before the events of ANH but i'm not sure when. My other guess would be thr Nogri people. Maybe we see the battle that devistates their planet. After all in the HttE trilogy Leia realises the damage was caused by clone wars vinatge ships.

Wasn't Daala 37 years old at the time of "Jedi Search" - thus meaning that she'd be 26 at the time of ANH??

However, this doesn't mean we can't see her as a child in EP3. (although we won't recognize her if that would be the case)

In regards to Stravo taking about Clone Tech not advancing, in HttE Talon Karade talks about reading about how pre clone wars it took a number of years to develop a full clone but he also surmised that during the clone war the methods where vastly improved, unfortunately the methods where lost in the mists of war. Thats in the EU isn't contradicted by the OT and therefore is admissable.

Im surprised that no one has brought up the possibility of Prince Xizor. I mean its suggested that the Black Sun organization has been around during the Republic and I think this would be the time that Prince Xizor finds himselft with a very good opertunity to take over the organization, with political strife and all. And either Black Sun can be put in the movie because it can play a very important role in bringing around the Empire or can bring the newly formed Empire a "major" problem that it has to deal with.

Tychu wrote:Im surprised that no one has brought up the possibility of Prince Xizor. I mean its suggested that the Black Sun organization has been around during the Republic and I think this would be the time that Prince Xizor finds himselft with a very good opertunity to take over the organization, with political strife and all. And either Black Sun can be put in the movie because it can play a very important role in bringing around the Empire or can bring the newly formed Empire a "major" problem that it has to deal with.

Because before the events in ANH and ESB, Xizor doesn't matter one damn bit. Bel Iblis though factors in HUGE when it comes to the founding of the Rebellion.