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U.S.S. Enterprise wrote:Whatever the output or amount of SW turbolasers, the fact remains that they are lasers and Federation sheilds can stop all lasers.

Proof? For either one of your assumptions that is.

Because they are called lasers, and Lucas obviously intended for them to be lasers since he called them that.

And Federation shields can stop all lasers because Riker said so in one of the episodes.

U.S.S. Enterprise: It doesnt work that way im afraid.

They are a plasma based weapon and not lasers or any other kind of energy only weapon.
Some people believe they are energy beam weapons but in truth thats just crazy talk.

Waits for HDS to get annoyed.

A fellow Trek fan?


I didn't think there were any here.

Oh dear god...not the Laser arguement...you do know it never stopped the BORG CUTTING LASER

Strange how many new trekkies keep exclaiming that Laser quote and yet when faced with the Borg it's just because they are the Borg.

As long as we dont stay still for too long we are ok.

Also only engage the enemy on higher ground, they own the stats area so avoid there if possible, if you want to argue stats go to sb.com since you may survive the experience there but you wont here.

U.S.S. Enterprise wrote:Because they are called lasers, and Lucas obviously intended for them to be lasers since he called them that.

Names aren't indicative of anything, it can just as easily be a colloquial term.
Laser-cannons do not have visual pulses traveling along the beam.

And Federation shields can stop all lasers because Riker said so in one of the episodes.

No, I saw that episode, he just said that their lasers couldn't penetrate it, not that all laser everywhere, regardless of power could.
And secondly, in another episode laser fire was reported in a system they where visiting and this prompted the captain to raise their shields.
Secondly, we've seen the enterprise take damage from ordinary light, this is no different from laser light and so disproves that they would be immune.

U.S.S. Enterprise wrote:Because they are called lasers, and Lucas obviously intended for them to be lasers since he called them that.

And Federation shields can stop all lasers because Riker said so in one of the episodes.

And I suppose federation shields would stop an atom laser too, wouldnt they, just because its called a laser?

U.S.S. Enterprise wrote:Whatever the output or amount of SW turbolasers, the fact remains that they are lasers and Federation sheilds can stop all lasers.

So Riker, who knows JS about Wars capabilities, was automatically referring to Wars lasers as well?

U.S.S. Enterprise wrote:Because they are called lasers, and Lucas obviously intended for them to be lasers since he called them that.

And Federation shields can stop all lasers because Riker said so in one of the episodes.

Lucas also used parsecs as a measure of time. Clearly he does not know a lot about physics and just went with what sounded cool.

U.S.S. Enterprise wrote:A fellow Trek fan?


I didn't think there were any here.

There are a few, just not many soup snadwiches like you.

The Parsec thing was solved ages ago...

TheDarkling wrote:The Parsec thing was solved ages ago...

As was the lasers, but if he is going only by literal reading of the movies, i will defeat him with literal reading of the movies.

His Divine Shadow wrote:Connor, if the designation LTL is incorrect, and Laser-cannon should be used, should we then say the small laser-cannons are not turbolasers but laser cannons?

Thats essentially what I am saying. No source I am aware of (and as some of you know, my collection is rather extensive) ever mentioned the ISD having LTLs, and the 60 (or 180) TL turrets mentioned were never specified as being LIGHT (except in relation to the big 50 meter turrets.) You could probably get away with calling them LTLs, but then you could also call them MTLs or just turbolasers... It just seems to cause confusion.

The problem is, of course, most think of the LTLs as anti-fighter weapons, so when someone mentions LTLs (in referring to the 60-180 TL turrets) they'll think of those ten meter guns. While they ARE capable of targeting starfighters, they are not meant as dedicated antifighter weapons (they're not as good as the laser cannons, in other words.)

As I mentioned, WOTC recently awarded point defense lasers to ISDs, but other sources definitely implied the existence of laser cannons on an ISD (ex: HTTE, the Chimaera firing on Luke before he vanished into hyperspace during that ambush Thrawn set up.)

The real reason I am in favor of discarding the LTL definition is for simplicity. When I think fo the "small" bolts fired on the falcon in TESB and ANH, I'm not thinking of multi-GT TLs, I'm thinking probably eht megaton range lasers (which would be well suited to targeting smaller craft). The bigger guns would only fire on smaller ships if they needed to "back up" the point defense, and if they weren't needed to threaten a bigger target (or if they needed to be certain to kill some incoming attack fast). Those heavy guns aren't made for precision fire against small ships - even glancing hits (possibly even at low power) could still probably kill a fighter or small freighter.

Because we know that laser-cannons and turbolasers are two distinct weapons based on the same tech.

Sort of. They apparently have similar natures (what they are), properties,a nd such. THe only real differences occur in power level, method of generation (and this largely seems to differ only in the complexity of the generation, much as a superlaser differs from TLs), range/cohesiveness, and fire rate. Traditionally, I've always thought of TLs as being the "one big shot with a slower rate of fire" guns (think battleship cannons, or tank guns, or artillery) whereas laser cannons were more high rate of fire and low individual shot damage weapons (machine guns, gatling guns, vulcan cannons, etc.) Of course, the flexibility in output and ROF demonstrated in the NJO series demonstrates that this isn't an absolute distinction (it can blur some), but thats generally the main differences.

Or maybe the small guns are not turbolasers?

Another possibility. As I pointed out to Ossus, while we know at least two kinds of TL exist on an ISD, its also quite probable that there are differnt "grades" of laser cannon, ion cannon, possibly even other forms of weaponry on an ISD. We don't know what the axial defense guns are (laser or TL or ion?) and we know there ARE two heavy ion turrets, as well as two quad laser turrets as well.

U.S.S. Enterprise wrote:Because they are called lasers, and Lucas obviously intended for them to be lasers since he called them that.

And Federation shields can stop all lasers because Riker said so in one of the episodes.

You know this used to be fun...newbie would come in...maek outrageous claim that was defeated long ago...they would be flamed..eventually they would wise up. However lately it seem that everywhere I go there are ignorant newbies all of whom really deserve a good braodside of reality.

Anyway enough people have already jumped on this newb so I'll just say that the screenplay for the episode in quesiton indicates a differnet intention of the quote than that which you claim and the E-D has shown susceptibility to Em radiation before (lasers being little more than an EM wave in the visible band sent along a narrow pathway).

U.S.S. Enterprise wrote:Whatever the output or amount of SW turbolasers, the fact remains that they are lasers and Federation sheilds can stop all lasers.

Your stupidity and ignorance are exceeded only by DarkStar, and potentially by Berman and Braga. You clearly have not even read the rest of the website, so I will give you a very brief explanation for why you are wrong.

1. The energy weapons in SW (often termed "lasers") are clearly not lasers. They do not behave anything like the lasers that we have today. Clearly, the word "laser" is a colloquial term used in SW that does not actually mean "laser" in our terminology. Their weapons are clearly different, as is CLEARLY demonstrated both in canon, and explained in the EU as being completely different from the lasers that we have. The same goes for the superlaser.

2. ST ships are not immune to laser fire, anyway. High-power lasers can slice through Federation shields and damage the ship itself (ref. Suddenly Human, Loud as a Whisper, Q Who?). The statements in "The Outrageous Okona" clearly were in reference to those particular, low power weapons.

Master of Ossus wrote:

U.S.S. Enterprise wrote:Whatever the output or amount of SW turbolasers, the fact remains that they are lasers and Federation sheilds can stop all lasers.

Your stupidity and ignorance are exceeded only by DarkStar, and potentially by Berman and Braga. You clearly have not even read the rest of the website, so I will give you a very brief explanation for why you are wrong.

1. The energy weapons in SW (often termed "lasers") are clearly not lasers. They do not behave anything like the lasers that we have today. Clearly, the word "laser" is a colloquial term used in SW that does not actually mean "laser" in our terminology. Their weapons are clearly different, as is CLEARLY demonstrated both in canon, and explained in the EU as being completely different from the lasers that we have. The same goes for the superlaser.

2. ST ships are not immune to laser fire, anyway. High-power lasers can slice through Federation shields and damage the ship itself (ref. Suddenly Human, Loud as a Whisper, Q Who?). The statements in "The Outrageous Okona" clearly were in reference to those particular, low power weapons.

Maybe you could just keep that saved as a text file, and C&P it into a reply the next time this idiotic laser argument comes up.

RedImperator wrote: Maybe you could just keep that saved as a text file, and C&P it into a reply the next time this idiotic laser argument comes up.

Someone should do that. If it comes up again pretty quickly then I'll just look up this post and then C&P it in.

I think you also may want this info:

Quote:

The Outrageous Okona

WORF: Captain, they have locked lasers.
PICARD: Lasers?
RIKER: Regulations call for a Yellow Alert.
PICARD: It's too small of a craft to be of any threat to us. Do you agree, Lieutenant Worf?
WORF: That won't even penetrate our navigational deflector.


This proves that it's not the fact that the enemy are equipped with lasers, it's the small size of the hostile craft that is the issue (the original script even said 'phasers', instead of 'lasers').

Quote:

Loud as a Whisper

WORF: I'm reading laser activity in the Solari Solar System!
RIKER: How concentrated is the activity?
WORF: It is localized -- and very intense.
RIKER: So much for the cease-fire.
PICARD: Open hailing frequencies.
WORF: I can establish voice only.
PICARD: This is Captain Jean-Luc Picard, commander of the Federation starship USS Enterprise. If you continue to violate the rules by breaking the cease-fire, I will abort this mission.
FIRST LEADER: You have no jurisdiction here, Picard. Where is Riva?
PICARD: Riva is in charge of the summit. I command the ship that brings him. I will not endanger my ship under any circumstances.


This proves that lasers CAN endanger the Enterprise D.
What more proof do you need?

Taken form here:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... c&start=15

EmperorMing wrote:I think you also may want this info:

Quote:

The Outrageous Okona

WORF: Captain, they have locked lasers.
PICARD: Lasers?
RIKER: Regulations call for a Yellow Alert.
PICARD: It's too small of a craft to be of any threat to us. Do you agree, Lieutenant Worf?
WORF: That won't even penetrate our navigational deflector.


This proves that it's not the fact that the enemy are equipped with lasers, it's the small size of the hostile craft that is the issue (the original script even said 'phasers', instead of 'lasers').

While the quote does show that, on the screenplay, the intention was clear we unfortunately ahve to deal with the fact that Riker's line in the episode is "lasers those won't..." Basically the screenplay makes the quote's intent clear but the actual epsiode has it different so Trekkies will always try to pour it on.

I'll have to watch this particular episode again in the near future for a better clarification.

However, it is a known fact that the Enterprise has had to go to some sort of defensive posture when the threat of laser weapons appeared. Very contradictory with the context that Trekkies are taking this laser thing with.

Sheesh!! you would think that they would pull their head out of their ass on this by now.

Ok time to update and Calucate a better low end

Inculding the one Volly idea

Ok NEW Calcs based on the fact that HTLs are 50 Gigatons more than MTLS as we are counting in MTLs this go around

1 Volly equals 36 HTLsX250=9000 Gigatons +200 x 34=6800+8000=14,800 or 15.8 Teratons

Now you may notice I uped the MTL and HTL count, well thats because as I was informed Broad side for ISDs means FORWARD ARC WEAPONRY which indules a few HTLs I had not counted before thus brining up weapon counts slighty

So 15.8 Teratons BARE MINIUM ASSUMING ONE VOLLY

Now to use the shall we shall insanley likley fact that there was more than one volly and instead as some suggest the ISDs kindly lined up and waited till Wedge shot a few times before attacking and those vollys where between 5-14 and we will use five places more reasonsable low end figures
15.8x5=79 Teratons which we will round to 80 Teratons
So 80 Teratons feel free to use this as established calcuated minium low end assuming SW every disadvantage...

Mr Bean wrote: So 15.8 Teratons BARE MINIUM ASSUMING ONE VOLLY

Now to use the shall we shall insanley likley fact that there was more than one volly and instead as some suggest the ISDs kindly lined up and waited till Wedge shot a few times before attacking and those vollys where between 5-14 and we will use five places more reasonsable low end figures
15.8x5=79 Teratons which we will round to 80 Teratons
So 80 Teratons feel free to use this as established calcuated minium low end assuming SW every disadvantage...

Personally I'll take 15.8 TT since it exceeds what any dozen ST ships can realistically bring to bear against an ISD excepting, possibly, Borg or S8472.

Still its quite a nice minium number no?

Anyway I decided to incudle the one volly figures with updated to incudled the bare minium due an unamed posters insistance

I just decided to add back in the MTLs that I had taken away


Anyway it gives nicer figures anyway

Mr Bean wrote:Still its quite a nice minium number no?

Anyway I decided to incudle the one volly figures with updated to incudled the bare minium due an unamed posters insistance

I just decided to add back in the MTLs that I had taken away


Anyway it gives nicer figures anyway

Truly it does, though we could always bother to remember that LTLs should be included in this and they ought to add a gigaton or two here and there which could make a difference after a few volleys.