29th Century Federation vs. Galactic Empire(Split)

[Alyeska]

Last TNG episode:

Captain Picard exists in three seperate timelines at the same time: old enterprise with current captain, current enterprise with current captain, and future enterprise with current captain. This would seem to imply that timelines are in fact seperate. If not, these three seperate timelines could not have existed concurrently.

"Fixing" timelines is probably the requirement for returning to your own original timeline.

Either that or Q is a fake and Picard's time travel was an illusion.

The time traveling had nothing to do with reality. The entire last episode of Star Trek was just something that Q cooked up to test Picard. Didn't you bother and pay attention? The anomoly was formed by Enterprises from 3 different time frames having fired the deflector dish thing at the exact same point. That is a paradox in two ways, first it was only 2 Enterprises and the Pasteur, second because the Enterprises would not have fired if the anomoly had not existed, yet the anomoly existed because of what the Enteprises had done. It is EXTREMELY obvious that Q set up the entire thing. That is how Picard was able to time shift, remember EVERYTHING, yet time shift again and remember what he "missed" while he was actively in another time, yet no one else remembers what had been going on.

Not to say it wasn't an illusion, but pointing out that Picard's whole trip was full of inconsistencies doesn't prove it, if that were so, most of TNG and ALL of Voyager and Enterprise would be fake... not that this doesn't have a certain appeal..

Actually those inconsistances were intentional. It was the impossiblity of how the anomoly formed that proved it was a paradox and thus Q really had been manipulating Picard. For all we know, none of what picard saw was real at all, but was a very complex illussion in Picards brain to see how he would react. Then again we did see that Picard will have a risk for a future alement, and we have seen what will eventually become of the Galaxy Class (which has already started in DS9 with the Venture)

[Zoink]

The time traveling had nothing to do with reality. The entire last episode of Star Trek was just something that Q cooked up to test Picard. Didn't you bother and pay attention?

Yes I payed attention. What quote says it WAS an illusion? All you provided was a summary of what happened.

The anomoly was formed by Enterprises from 3 different time frames

Yes.

It is EXTREMELY obvious that Q set up the entire thing

No shit. If Q hadn't sent Picard into those time frames then it wouldn't have happened.

That is how Picard was able to time shift, remember EVERYTHING, yet time shift again and remember what he "missed" while he was actively in another time, yet no one else remembers what had been going on.

So either:
Q lied and it was an illusion.

Or:
Q was telling the truth and Picard was in three seperate timelines that didn't affect each other.

[Evil Jerk]

The time traveling had nothing to do with reality. The entire last episode of Star Trek was just something that Q cooked up to test Picard. Didn't you bother and pay attention? The anomoly was formed by Enterprises from 3 different time frames having fired the deflector dish thing at the exact same point. That is a paradox in two ways, first it was only 2 Enterprises and the Pasteur, second because the Enterprises would not have fired if the anomoly had not existed, yet the anomoly existed because of what the Enteprises had done. It is EXTREMELY obvious that Q set up the entire thing. That is how Picard was able to time shift, remember EVERYTHING, yet time shift again and remember what he "missed" while he was actively in another time, yet no one else remembers what had been going on.

Not to say it wasn't an illusion, but pointing out that Picard's whole trip was full of inconsistencies doesn't prove it, if that were so, most of TNG and ALL of Voyager and Enterprise would be fake... not that this doesn't have a certain appeal..

Actually those inconsistances were intentional. It was the impossiblity of how the anomoly formed that proved it was a paradox and thus Q really had been manipulating Picard. For all we know, none of what picard saw was real at all, but was a very complex illussion in Picards brain to see how he would react. Then again we did see that Picard will have a risk for a future alement, and we have seen what will eventually become of the Galaxy Class (which has already started in DS9 with the Venture)

Do we know that the inconsistancies were intentional though?
What possible bearing would it make mistaking the Pasteur for another Enterprise for example? This one sounds more like a writer's gaffe.
As for the paradox involving the anti-time, well, it wasn't the first paradox nor the last, it doesn't make sense, but like O'Brien once said: "I hate temporal mechanics".

[Zoink]

Multiple intersecting timelines solve the paradox. Its also solves the problem about killing your grandfather, etc.

[Alyeska]

Do we know that the inconsistancies were intentional though?
What possible bearing would it make mistaking the Pasteur for another Enterprise for example? This one sounds more like a writer's gaffe.
As for the paradox involving the anti-time, well, it wasn't the first paradox nor the last, it doesn't make sense, but like O'Brien once said: "I hate temporal mechanics".

The Pasteur is likely a writers mistake, but the paradox involving the three Enterprises was intentional because Q mentions to Picard that that was the entire point behind the test, to see if Picard and the human race was capable of expanding their capabilities.

[Evil Jerk]

Do we know that the inconsistancies were intentional though?
What possible bearing would it make mistaking the Pasteur for another Enterprise for example? This one sounds more like a writer's gaffe.
As for the paradox involving the anti-time, well, it wasn't the first paradox nor the last, it doesn't make sense, but like O'Brien once said: "I hate temporal mechanics".

The Pasteur is likely a writers mistake, but the paradox involving the three Enterprises was intentional because Q mentions to Picard that that was the entire point behind the test, to see if Picard and the human race was capable of expanding their capabilities.

Yes, perhaps. Like I said I was never sure it was real.
On the other hand, Q was spot on with the future uniforms

[Admiral_K]

Are there trekies out there actually arguing that there aren't multiple timelines?

Do you not remmember the TNG episode where worf kept getting pulled into alternate realities. In each was an alternate chain of events (alternate timelines). In one, Riker was captain because Picard didnt survive the Borg incident, in another the Borg won and took over, in another worf was married with children. It became trek cannon that multiple realities DO exist and that yes each time you time travel you create a new one. This episode proved the theory that "Each possibly that can occur, does occur just in different realities".

That is why the time travel cop out doesn't work.

[Alyeska]

Are there trekies out there actually arguing that there aren't multiple timelines?

Do you not remmember the TNG episode where worf kept getting pulled into alternate realities. In each was an alternate chain of events (alternate timelines). In one, Riker was captain because Picard didnt survive the Borg incident, in another the Borg won and took over, in another worf was married with children. It became trek cannon that multiple realities DO exist and that yes each time you time travel you create a new one. This episode proved the theory that "Each possibly that can occur, does occur just in different realities".

That is why the time travel cop out doesn't work.

That was not time travel. There is a difference between alternate universes and alternate time lines. That episode also firmly established it is possible to determine who comes from what universe. If Time travel were nothing but universe hopping, they would have realized that a long time ago and not bothered attempting to change the past or save the past.

[Slartibartfast]

About the episode with the 3 timelines:

If the anomaly was generated in the future, and it grew larger the farther you went to the past (it was tiny in the future, medium-sized in the "present" and large in the past) why as time went by, the anomaly grew larger in all three timelines???

[SirNitram]

Bad writing.

[Master of Ossus]

1. You people don't get what happened in the episode, do you? When Archer was pulled into the future, he could not be in the past. Since Archer was not in the past, the Federation was never founded. That is why the monument was not there. The UFP had never existed in the alternate timeline. However, in the REAL timeline (the one that Daniels came from), the UFP did exist, and a monument to it had been constructed on the road to the library. However, that is pretty clear evidence that the UFP no longer existed at the time that Daniels was from--it HAD existed in the past, but it no longer did.

Actaully, it make sense that when Archer was pulled through the timeportal, the timeline was CHANGED, not branched into a new one. That is why Deniels was surprised that he was still here and not disappeared like all his friend and co-workers. Later on Archer finally get back into his time, and the timeline was CHANGED , possbily back to as normal as possible (we wouldn't know since we didn't see Deniels and the future).

I think the key is that while most of the people (here) believe that timeline is something solid and can't be changed, and any difference must therefore be considered a branch of the original one, I consider timeline more like liquid. It's always going to be that much volume in it. but the shape of it will not always be the same. hence I can accept the single-timeline (solid is a very misleading term here, sorry about using it) better than most people.

Red herring, the point was that you had completely and utterly misinterpreted the episode when you claimed that the "monumento" was not there when Archer visited the future because it still existed. This is patently false. The monument was not there because in the alternate future the UFP never existed in that timeline.

Further, your statements that that was part of the actual timeline must be incorrect because Daniels still existed in the future. Also, the existence of multiple timelines has been demonstrated in ST multiple times, most notably in ST:FC, when the Federation fleet (except for the E-E, because it was protected) disappeared when the Borg ship went back in time. The old timeline was restored only when the E-E destroyed the Borg sphere and saved Cochrane and the Phoenix. Multiple universes have been demonstrated many times in ST, and some of them have actually been visited. Clearly there are alternate timelines going on, and not just alterations in the future (also shown by a multitude of episodes, like "Yesterday's Enterprise.").

[Alyeska]

First Contact supports a single time-line with changing futures. If it was multiple time lines then the Borg would have gone back in time and created a new time line not having anything to do with the Federation, and the E-E would never have saw earth change into a Borg planet. First Contact is a classic example that it is possible to alter the past while remaining in the same time line.

[Master of Ossus]

You assume that the Borg did not transport the E-E into the alternate timeline when this happened, despite the fact that they were shielded from the temporal effects on the rest of the timeline. When the Enterprise and her crew restored the timeline, however, they were transported back into a facsimile of their own future.

[Slartibartfast]

First Contact supports a single time-line with changing futures. If it was multiple time lines then the Borg would have gone back in time and created a new time line not having anything to do with the Federation, and the E-E would never have saw earth change into a Borg planet. First Contact is a classic example that it is possible to alter the past while remaining in the same time line.

Since that was caused by some phenomenon associated with the time rip, the same that explains why the Enterprise is spared from the "change", one could easily argue that the Enterprise was watching that new timeline because they were in the time rip to the past of that timeline.

Just like the Defiant was actually in some space bubble which was the same that made the other guys travel to the past and alter the future, it was making them shift between timelines.

Maybe if they had stepped out of the bubble, they would have remained stuck there no matter what was done in the past, instead of vanishing into a non-existing timeline.

[Slartibartfast]

I forgot to say timeline.

[Evil Jerk]

and not just alterations in the future (also shown by a multitude of episodes, like "Yesterday's Enterprise.").

I think "Yesterday's Enterprise" also supports multiple timelines, it's just that the shift occurs from our point of view.

First Contact supports a single time-line with changing futures. If it was multiple time lines then the Borg would have gone back in time and created a new time line not having anything to do with the Federation, and the E-E would never have saw earth change into a Borg planet. First Contact is a classic example that it is possible to alter the past while remaining in the same time line.

Not really, the E-E was dragged along into the new timeline by the temporal vortex or whatever the hell it was, from the original universe's point of view, the E-E would've simply mysteriously dissapeared, never to return (as it's actions in the past would create a 3rd timeline).

[Alyeska]

You assume that the Borg did not transport the E-E into the alternate timeline when this happened, despite the fact that they were shielded from the temporal effects on the rest of the timeline. When the Enterprise and her crew restored the timeline, however, they were transported back into a facsimile of their own future.

We already know that the only way to have been transfered is to cross through the temporal field. They did not do that, they were caught in its wake, which as was stated in the movie protected them from the changes. If going back in time places you in a different time line, then time travel to change the past is USELESS. The problem is that there are plenty of examples of events in the past changing the future, which is clearly indicative of it being a single time line. That is why the E-E saw earth change, that is why the Defiant was suddenly faced with an alternate future, that is why when the Time Ship was destroyed the future reset itself in Voyager. Those are all clear examples of the timeline being single, and changes in the past being very bad. The Federation has enough of an understanding about time travel to know that past travel can cause bad things. If going back in time sent you to an alternate reality, they would have discovered that very quickly, and the proof is in the episode in which Worf was reality hopping.

[Master of Ossus]

You state that the UFP has experience with timelines. How do you explain their abducting of Captain Archer, if they were experts in the field? The results of such an action were easily foreseeable.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You state that the UFP has experience with timelines. How do you explain their abducting of Captain Archer, if they were experts in the field? The results of such an action were easily foreseeable.

Daniels admitted that was a very stupid mistake.

[SirNitram]

Alyeska: As I posted above, we have seen time travel where the past is maintained, and the past is shunted to another timeline. Please show any proof the methods employed by the 29th Century Federation is the former and not the latter, when they state otherwise in Future's End.

Side Note(On FC): Of course it's stupid to head back in time. But the Queen was on board, and the Sphere was a lifeboat. It went to a timeperiod/timeline when it should have been safe. In it's wake, the E-E could perceive the 'present' of this new timelne. They, in effect, saved a completely different timeline.

It's also my pet theory that that timejump created the timeline where the NX-01 Enterprise comes from, as it would have been influenced by Cochrane's viewing of the E-E, hence it's futuristic look.

[Alyeska]

Yesterday's Enterprise is ALSO an example of a single time line. If it were multiple time lines, the E-D would not have detected the E-C for a split second at the very end.

There is canon information the Federation can scan and detect if people are from alternate realities. If time travel created alternate time lines, or as you say they move to an alternate reality close to what they were attempting to do, then such transgressions would have been detected long ago by use of this scanning. They would have imediately realized the futility of time travel and stopped bothering with it. The fact that they have not is clear proof that the time line is static for the most part.

[Evil Jerk]

You assume that the Borg did not transport the E-E into the alternate timeline when this happened, despite the fact that they were shielded from the temporal effects on the rest of the timeline. When the Enterprise and her crew restored the timeline, however, they were transported back into a facsimile of their own future.

We already know that the only way to have been transfered is to cross through the temporal field. They did not do that, they were caught in its wake, which as was stated in the movie protected them from the changes.

Changes as they understood them, there's nothing to say it didn't really drag them into a new timeline.

If going back in time places you in a different time line, then time travel to change the past is USELESS.

That's the point, it's useless except to pad the ego of the traveller.

The problem is that there are plenty of examples of events in the past changing the future, which is clearly indicative of it being a single time line. That is why the E-E saw earth change, that is why the Defiant was suddenly faced with an alternate future,

They were protected so when the timelines shifted while they remained in place.

that is why when the Time Ship was destroyed the future reset itself in Voyager.

But the old Braxton still exists! The future did not reset, it just spawned a new timeline.

Those are all clear examples of the timeline being single, and changes in the past being very bad. The Federation has enough of an understanding about time travel to know that past travel can cause bad things. If going back in time sent you to an alternate reality, they would have discovered that very quickly, and the proof is in the episode in which Worf was reality hopping.

This is the Federation, the same people who think event horizons have cracks.
I would not put too much faith in their ability to work out anything.

[Master of Ossus]

You state that the UFP has experience with timelines. How do you explain their abducting of Captain Archer, if they were experts in the field? The results of such an action were easily foreseeable.

Daniels admitted that was a very stupid mistake.

So? It should have been foreseen by anybody. He appears not to have even considered the consequences of his actions. That is not the usual procedure for a group that has vast experience with time travel. Also note that they had a device specifically used for communicating across time on "every desk." Clearly they don't really give a damn that they're messing with time.

Incidentally, this whole thing is kind of proof that the future government in the ST universe does not have the power to transport ships back in time. If they did have that ability, they should have been able to destroy all of the weird aliens that were screwing around with the timeline by destroying their fleet back in Enterprise's day and then cleaning up the mess. As it is they have thoroughly altered the timeline.

[Evil Jerk]

Yesterday's Enterprise is ALSO an example of a single time line. If it were multiple time lines, the E-D would not have detected the E-C for a split second at the very end.

Why not? As far as I remember, the anomaly existed in both timelines.

There is canon information the Federation can scan and detect if people are from alternate realities. If time travel created alternate time lines, or as you say they move to an alternate reality close to what they were attempting to do, then such transgressions would have been detected long ago by use of this scanning. They would have imediately realized the futility of time travel and stopped bothering with it. The fact that they have not is clear proof that the time line is static for the most part.

Only if they know to actually scan for such things, which I don't think is a regular occurence.

[Alyeska]

Alyeska: As I posted above, we have seen time travel where the past is maintained, and the past is shunted to another timeline. Please show any proof the methods employed by the 29th Century Federation is the former and not the latter, when they state otherwise in Future's End.

If time travel created alternate realities only, then in VGR Relativity it would have been pointless to go back in time to save Voyager.

What happened is the 29th century Federation detected a time change. Voyager was supposed to survive and make it back to the Federation, they knew this. Except Voyager suddenly blew up, and they detected that someone from the future had caused this. They investigate, they loose Voyager at least once during the episode, but eventually they find out how it happened. The 29th Century Federation officers indicated that the death of Voyager would cause bad changes to the future, their future. The time ship had observed the changes while itself remaining unchanged. It sent people back in time to prevent Voyager from being destroyed and the future was restored. Why did the Time ship itself not get affected by the change? It had temporal shields that allowed it to avoid the grand father paradox. The time ship saw time as it started, time as it was altered, and time as it was fixed. If the time lines diverge when the past is altered, such monitoring of the time lines would be pointless because you have no worry about the past being altered. The fact that they DO worry about the past changing, and that they have safe guards to prevent this is CLEAR evidence that the time line can be static.