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Crown wrote: And even if the NR did exactly what it did, why weren't the member states pulling out faster than a premature ejectulator on a $2 whore who isn't wearing a condom and mobilising their own fleets for their own home system defense/offence like in the Thrawn Duology?

It was fucked up.

But they did. Frankly, I liked the way they protrayed the fumbling of the NR. It demonstrated the virtues of the NR military and the inherent flaws of leadership and talent.

In the space of a single generation, the NR military has transformed from being a rebel froce to a decent, somewhat overstretched and undermanned military that is totally professional in nature, only breaking down in the climatic Coruscant Battle. A huge leap, considering the breakdown in discipline that occured during the Black Fleet Crisis earlier.

Furthermore, the problems of government and leadership has always been how to pass it on. Without directly selecting and nominating the next generation of leaders, as often as not, the next gen of leaders turn up to be people who made their mark by opposing every single policy you did and created.

PainRack wrote:In the space of a single generation, the NR military has transformed from being a rebel froce to a decent, somewhat overstretched and undermanned military that is totally professional in nature, only breaking down in the climatic Coruscant Battle. A huge leap, considering the breakdown in discipline that occured during the Black Fleet Crisis earlier.

Having not read Star by Star I don't know about the Battle of Coruscant, Take Three (or whatever it is), but I don't recall any breakdowns in discipline in the BFC Trilogy, insofar as the Fleet/Military was concerned...can you elaborate please?

His Divine Shadow wrote:

Durandal wrote:Any concept which relies on ships made of organic tissue standing a chance against gigaton-level weaponry is a horrendously flawed concept.

Well it doesn't actually do that, if a shot gets past their defences it's usually very bad, one ISD2 can vaporize two 1.2km Mataloks in an instant also, as the Errant Venture did when it opened fire, so I don't have a problem there, the bigger problem is this gravity crap they pull.

That incident was not using turbolasers.

RogueIce wrote:Having not read Star by Star I don't know about the Battle of Coruscant, Take Three (or whatever it is), but I don't recall any breakdowns in discipline in the BFC Trilogy, insofar as the Fleet/Military was concerned...can you elaborate please?

In one of the battles, the Yevetha transmitted pleas for help in various "vermin" languages, which stated that all the Yevethan ships carried, in effect, hostages. As a result, the K-wings aborted their runs against orders and the NR fleet got massacred. Considering that the YV tried pretty much the same thing in SbS, I think the NR performed spectactularly at Coruscant.

Darth Yoshi wrote:In one of the battles, the Yevetha transmitted pleas for help in various "vermin" languages, which stated that all the Yevethan ships carried, in effect, hostages. As a result, the K-wings aborted their runs against orders and the NR fleet got massacred. Considering that the YV tried pretty much the same thing in SbS, I think the NR performed spectactularly at Coruscant.

Ah... Well, breakdown in discipline though that may be, I think it was an understandable reaction, if a costly one.

So far as YV captives, though...isn't it fairly common knowledge what happens to the captives, in regards to the implants and stuff? Maybe they had that in mind, and considered that killing them might be doing a favor. That, or because they were fighting for the very survival of the NR, whereas the Yevetha weren't as big a threat to the NR itself.

Just speculation, though. I don't know what, if anything, the author attributed it to in the book. And don't tell me! *goes out to find book sometime soon*

Durandal wrote:

Crown wrote:For my money, the NJO was a flawed concepet from day 1.

Any concept which relies on ships made of organic tissue standing a chance against gigaton-level weaponry is a horrendously flawed concept.

To be fair, that is not what they are. They are organic tissue buried deep under an asston of "coral" armor. The outside is basically solid rock, with the sole exceptions to this being ships specifically designed with a different function. In addition, that coral is fucking tought, Traitor indicates that it is on par with durasteel (though that could be because that particular batch was grown using durasteel molecules as a base)

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

His Divine Shadow wrote:

Durandal wrote:Any concept which relies on ships made of organic tissue standing a chance against gigaton-level weaponry is a horrendously flawed concept.

Well it doesn't actually do that, if a shot gets past their defences it's usually very bad, one ISD2 can vaporize two 1.2km Mataloks in an instant also, as the Errant Venture did when it opened fire, so I don't have a problem there, the bigger problem is this gravity crap they pull.

That incident was not using turbolasers.

Oh yes it was:

Pg. 310: As the Imperial Star Destroyer rotated to bring each matalok within sight of the greatest possible number of weapons, thirty turbolaser batteries fired at each target, turning the hull of each cruiser into a superheated, explosive ruin.
In a matter of seconds, the two mataloks where gone, an expanding cloud of gas and rubble the only sign they had ever been there.

(ref: Enemy Lines II - Rebel Stand)

PainRack wrote:Isn't our speculation based on the theory that the YV won't adapt their tactics? What if they do and say, incite a period of warlordism in the Empire? The Empire can and will stamp them out, but this gives the YV time to establish themselves in the Empire.

What say communications and resource lines between Core and Rim worlds were cut off? Or that terrorist attacks by aliens versus humans took up the entire attention of the Imperial command?

The Empire is highly decentralized, but the Hands and various high-level Enforcers serve to keep the Grand Moffs and Moffs in-line (Like the "Royal Scribes" assigned to watch the Satraps of the Persian Empire), even though they basically rule States within States. Any one of the Grand Moffdoms is easily capable of defeating the Vong on its own, for that matter (consider that Tarkin basically built the Death Star with the resources of his own territory), terrorist attacks would be met with a brutality that would make the Mongols wince--thus deterring other such attacks even with Vong incitement--and, again, efforts at raiding would not prevent the various Sectoral or Regional governments from maintaining a defence entirely independent of central control. The Empire was highly decentralized.

I was just wondering... say the Vong's homeworlds were intact, and instead of them being the invaders, the Empire came to their galaxy to take over.
Since the Vong were in their ow galaxy, I believe their fleet might be much larger.
The Empire, of course, can't possibly bring all their ships over. Say maybe a small fraction of their existing fleet. To make it easier, let us assume they brought about 1/2 (the no. of ships.) what the Vong had in their own galaxy.
Who will win if the above is the case?

Oh, one more thing... what do you think the Emperor's reaction will be when he discovered the Vong are Force-immune? Even his Dark Side powers wouldn't help him... so, he might feel a little less secured. And... I don't think he can forsee what the Vong will do next, can he?

EDCP

They aren't immune to the Force, only to being sensed through the force. Telekinetics and force lightning will kill them like anyone else.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:They aren't immune to the Force, only to being sensed through the force. Telekinetics and force lightning will kill them like anyone else.

IIRC, in the NJO, TK was tried on them, and it didn't work. Same with lightning. When Tahiri was held captive, the only way she found to attack them was by manipulating air molecules.

YT300000 wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:They aren't immune to the Force, only to being sensed through the force. Telekinetics and force lightning will kill them like anyone else.

IIRC, in the NJO, TK was tried on them, and it didn't work. Same with lightning. When Tahiri was held captive, the only way she found to attack them was by manipulating air molecules.

No, in Traitor Jacen used force lightning on Nom Amor and knocked him flat on his ass. Also I believe there's several instances of force push working on the vong.

The lightning had no effect. The squad of YV were knocked down by very strong winds and the fact that the room was collapsing around them (both things done by Jacen).

YT300000 wrote:The lightning had no effect. The squad of YV were knocked down by very strong winds and the fact that the room was collapsing around them (both things done by Jacen).

not for Jacen in traitor
But in star by star jaina used it to blow a hole through a vongs chest.

Wild Karrde wrote:

YT300000 wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:They aren't immune to the Force, only to being sensed through the force. Telekinetics and force lightning will kill them like anyone else.

IIRC, in the NJO, TK was tried on them, and it didn't work. Same with lightning. When Tahiri was held captive, the only way she found to attack them was by manipulating air molecules.

No, in Traitor Jacen used force lightning on Nom Amor and knocked him flat on his ass. Also I believe there's several instances of force push working on the vong.

The only time TK worked on the Vong was when Anakin used it, and he channeled it through his own "link" to the Vong, the lambent-crystal in his lightsaber. Even then, a Force-push that would've thrown humans across the room and probably killed them only staggered the Vong.

The Jedi had better luck using TK on inanimate objects and using those objects against the Vong, with Anakin maiming or killing numerous warriors using boulders (when he and Mara are being chased on Dantooine), Tahiri almost suffocating a roomfull of them by compressing air molecules (or something).

[Edited because I'd forgotten that Jaina managed to force-lightning the Vong, and Jacen's had only hurt Vergere]

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

PainRack wrote:Isn't our speculation based on the theory that the YV won't adapt their tactics? What if they do and say, incite a period of warlordism in the Empire? The Empire can and will stamp them out, but this gives the YV time to establish themselves in the Empire.

What say communications and resource lines between Core and Rim worlds were cut off? Or that terrorist attacks by aliens versus humans took up the entire attention of the Imperial command?

The Empire is highly decentralized, but the Hands and various high-level Enforcers serve to keep the Grand Moffs and Moffs in-line (Like the "Royal Scribes" assigned to watch the Satraps of the Persian Empire), even though they basically rule States within States. Any one of the Grand Moffdoms is easily capable of defeating the Vong on its own, for that matter (consider that Tarkin basically built the Death Star with the resources of his own territory), terrorist attacks would be met with a brutality that would make the Mongols wince--thus deterring other such attacks even with Vong incitement--and, again, efforts at raiding would not prevent the various Sectoral or Regional governments from maintaining a defence entirely independent of central control. The Empire was highly decentralized.

I know how decentralised the Empire was. I compiled an essay on it once. I was talking about how the Empire central command was distracted by several of her moffs, admirals and what not going rogue and claiming parts of the Empire for herself. In the midst of the chaos engineered, the YV could have come in and established herself.

I'm just asking a single question. What happens if the YV changes her tactics? What changes will they make, and what are the Empire counter-tactics?

Emperor Palpatine wrote:I was just wondering... say the Vong's homeworlds were intact, and instead of them being the invaders, the Empire came to their galaxy to take over.
Since the Vong were in their ow galaxy, I believe their fleet might be much larger.
The Empire, of course, can't possibly bring all their ships over. Say maybe a small fraction of their existing fleet. To make it easier, let us assume they brought about 1/2 (the no. of ships.) what the Vong had in their own galaxy.
Who will win if the above is the case?

Oh, one more thing... what do you think the Emperor's reaction will be when he discovered the Vong are Force-immune? Even his Dark Side powers wouldn't help him... so, he might feel a little less secured. And... I don't think he can forsee what the Vong will do next, can he?

EDCP

They aren't Forc eImmune, they can't be sensed. And that deosn't even matter when 200GT of green rain come crashing down on your homeworld.

I suspect a quick Imperial victory in this case because the Emperor would order the extermination of the entire YV race. ANd the EMpire at its height could do it too.

*sings* Galaxy Gun, oh Galaxy Gun. *stops singing*

Since we've already analysed Empire vs. itself, and determined it is stronger offensively, its a bit of a foregone conclusion.

PainRack wrote: I know how decentralised the Empire was. I compiled an essay on it once. I was talking about how the Empire central command was distracted by several of her moffs, admirals and what not going rogue and claiming parts of the Empire for herself. In the midst of the chaos engineered, the YV could have come in and established herself.

I'm just asking a single question. What happens if the YV changes her tactics? What changes will they make, and what are the Empire counter-tactics?

My apologies. Well--I mean, I just don't think it would happen. And even if it did, the Empire could probably simultaneously take the rogues and the Vong--or even the rogues could take the Vong. The likely result of a Vong attempt to sow dissension like this is that people who did not register in the force would be discovered by the Emperor or his agents, and tracked by the Ubiqtorate. If any Governors were suborned by them, they would be killed by the Hands, their disloyalty proven. In fact, this may be how Nom Anor got into his leadership position--the Emperor was using him to screen the Sector Governors. It would be the height of typical machiavellian scheming from Palpatine.