George Lucas on the Clone Trooper/Stormtrooper connection

[Sea Skimmer]

Wouldn't flash imprinting of these skills address this issue?

Maybe, though you could also just do that to conscripts and save all costs involved in raising any form of child or clone. But then they seem to favor human troops over driod's for creative thinking and giving all your troops the same mind wouldn't support that.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Wouldn't flash imprinting of these skills address this issue?

Maybe, though you could also just do that to conscripts and save all costs involved in raising any form of child or clone. But then they seem to favor human troops over driod's for creative thinking and giving all your troops the same mind wouldn't support that.

Really? I'd love to see the proof you can flash-imprint a normal person. It appears to be a gradual wiring of the brain while a clone is developing. There's not a shred of evidence to show it can be used on normal people.

[YT300000]

IIRC, flash imprinting also wipes all the previous memories. Not a problem with a clone just pulled out of a vat, but with a conscript...

Flash learning, on the other hand, adds memories without harming existing ones.

[Illuminatus Primus]

IIRC, flash imprinting also wipes all the previous memories. Not a problem with a clone just pulled out of a vat, but with a conscript...

Flash learning, on the other hand, adds memories without harming existing ones.

Evidence?

[YT300000]

IIRC, flash imprinting also wipes all the previous memories. Not a problem with a clone just pulled out of a vat, but with a conscript...

Flash learning, on the other hand, adds memories without harming existing ones.

Evidence?

An Image Attack on SW.com showed the headphone-type things that the young Jango clones were wearing. It said they were flash-learning devices. I'm looking for the Image, but there are so many of them that I may not find it.

[YT300000]

Ooops, bad memory. It says accelerated learning, not flash learning. But it might be the same thing, however doubtful.

here

[Illuminatus Primus]

It isn't. Those are just audio visual interactive systems to educate Kaminoan clones.

[YT300000]

I hadn't seen that Image in over half a year. My memory slipped a little. Sorry.

[vakundok]

Your claiming that diseases and starvation don't exists on Coruscant? That would be very fucking wrong.

I did not know about Zimbabwe district or AIDS on Coruscant, so I was wrong. However they account only for the smaller part.

Armed conflicts are very common, or did you miss the fact there are whole sectors, which are basically run by gangs that pay off the authorities?

You used Coruscant (a very large population center) as an example, didn't you? How the number of orphaned children on Coruscant (or on other large population centers) are affected by these 'very common' armed conflicts?

But there are still the other problems: time, cost and independency.

It's much quicker and far cheaper to train someone who acquired basic life skills on there own then to raise them from birth? Do you realize how much effort would be required to teach all those accelerated growth clones how to walk, read, write, drive and do about a million other things we learn as children? And it all has to be done in half the time with the addition of military training. That is not a cost effective proposition when you can find an ample support of persons who already have such skills and would require only the military training.

Did you realize that a large part (maybe the larger part) of the military training is to break down the soldiers and than build them up again as part of a unit?
Yes, the children have already learnt many many things. From which many many have to be forgotten. A few examples:
You mentioned walking. The clones learn to walk and move together, whereas the children have to forget their individual movement habits and learn this.
Sleeping. The clones sleep in tubes, it is not unnatural for them. The children have to be accustomed to this.

Forgetting a habit is far far more demanding than learning something. So, I think yes, the training of the clones are cheaper and (since you wrote that it can be done in 'half the time') faster.

[vakundok]

But then they seem to favor human troops over driod's for creative thinking and giving all your troops the same mind wouldn't support that.

Excuse me, but this was only a marketing speech. The novelisation stated that the usage of living beings was only chosen because force sensitives (officially jedis) coluld lead them more easily. It also stated that a battle droid was nearly equal to a lone clone trooper and a super battle droid was maybe even better and the clone troopers were better only as groups. In this case the same mind (and thinking) is an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

[Sea Skimmer]

Really? I'd love to see the proof you can flash-imprint a normal person. It appears to be a gradual wiring of the brain while a clone is developing. There's not a shred of evidence to show it can be used on normal people.

This not a shred of evidence to prove that its not 500 time more expensive then conventional training and half as effective either. In fact theres just about no evidence about its capabilits one way or another.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm willing to bet that Thrawn's ability to churn out a clone per tank per week at the skill of Royal Guards was a lot cheaper than 10 years of training and such with the Kaminoans.

[Sea Skimmer]

You used Coruscant (a very large population center) as an example, didn't you? How the number of orphaned children on Coruscant (or on other large population centers) are affected by these 'very common' armed conflicts?

I don't know. However every you can divided the orphan rate by a thousand and still have an ample number of troops when you consider that my current numbers reflect just one planet in a galaxy of 51 million and quintillions of beings.

Did you realize that a large part (maybe the larger part) of the military training is to break down the soldiers and than build them up again as part of a unit?

You dont know me well

Yes, the children have already learnt many many things. From which many many have to be forgotten. A few examples:
You mentioned walking. The clones learn to walk and move together, whereas the children have to forget their individual movement habits and learn this.
Sleeping. The clones sleep in tubes, it is not unnatural for them. The children have to be accustomed to this.

You know its funny how modern militaries manage to get there adult troops accustomed to marching in step and sleep in tiny coffin sized bunks (notice the luxurious accommodations on nuclear submarines) in a matter of months.

Forgetting a habit is far far more demanding than learning something. So, I think yes, the training of the clones are cheaper and (since you wrote that it can be done in 'half the time') faster.

What you don't seem to get is that the Empire incurs no additional cost in training orphans or any form of recruit or conscript in life skills. It only incurs the cost of the military training. Clones it must pay an additional amount for such life skill training.

There is no way in hell training clones could be cheaper.

[vakundok]

I don't know. However every you can divided the orphan rate by a thousand and still have an ample number of troops when you consider that my current numbers reflect just one planet in a galaxy of 51 million and quintillions of beings.

Yes. While I questioned the ratio you used I accepted what you wrote due to the size of the galaxy. 'Otherwise, you are possibly right. So, maybe there are enough orphaned children to use at any time.'

You dont know me well.

It is definitely true.

You know its funny how modern militaries manage to get there adult troops accustomed to marching in step and sleep in tiny coffin sized bunks (notice the luxurious accommodations on nuclear submarines) in a matter of months.

The clones use similar or even less luxurious accomodations continuously for a lifetime without moral problems. I simply doubt it could be reached with someone who lived normal life for a while.

What you don't seem to get is that the Empire incurs no additional cost in training orphans or any form of recruit or conscript in life skills. It only incurs the cost of the military training. Clones it must pay an additional amount for such life skill training.

I got that. I only think that teaching those is not more costly than the children's 'clearing up'.

[Cyke]

However, since clones grow faster, the cost of feeding and housing them would be much lower.

Possibly, but creating the clones in the first place is extremely expensive.

The remaining factor that has been used is that the cost of the actual cloning procedure would be high, but this cannot be established, since the Empire might have very cost-effective methods of producing large numbers of clones (low cost per unit).

Explain why the Empire might have more cost-effective methods, and provide evidence for your claims of cheap cloning methods in The Empire.

It wouldn't take much of a stretch to believe that the same industrial capabilities that allow them to manufacture their fleets of starships also allow them to churn out clone soldiers.
Lowering costs through mass production- industrial efforts scale very well.

Yes - but doesn't most humans consider such mass-cloning to be morally repulsive, thus leaving the cloning to be done by species whose cultures don't give them qualms about mass-producing clones?? (eg. Khommites, Lurrians, Kaminoans)

And if the mass-production of armies are left to a few obscure species, doesn't this only serve to make the process more expensive on the galactic scale??

I don't have to provide evidence of the Empire having cheap cloning methods; you're supposed to provide evidence that cloning will be more expensive, remember?
Anyway, I just stated that in any industrial process, mass producing will decrease the cost per-unit.
Aside from moral issues which the Empire likely ignores, production of Stormtroopers is quite likely no different than any other industrial process.
Even assuming that the "assembly lines" can't be completely automated, after the first batch of clones, note that the staff of clone production facilities could also be clones!
I haven't been to the board for a few days, and these points have already been addressed by other people, but I thought I should reply.. thx for responding.

[Peregrin Toker]

I don't have to provide evidence of the Empire having cheap cloning methods; you're supposed to provide evidence that cloning will be more expensive, remember?

Hey, you got me there. However, I personally doubt that the majority of the Stormtrooper Corps is clones as it would be more cost-efficient to recruit people as soon the need for total secrecy is gone.

Even assuming that the "assembly lines" can't be completely automated, after the first batch of clones, note that the staff of clone production facilities could also be clones!

Heh, you're a subscriber to the theory that the Kaminoans reproduce by means of cloning?? (I personally believe that they use in-vitro fertilization but not necessarily cloning - then again, it's up to you what you think about this)

[Darth Wong]

You know its funny how modern militaries manage to get there adult troops accustomed to marching in step and sleep in tiny coffin sized bunks (notice the luxurious accommodations on nuclear submarines) in a matter of months.

The clones use similar or even less luxurious accomodations continuously for a lifetime without moral problems. I simply doubt it could be reached with someone who lived normal life for a while.

You have not provided a shred of evidence that clones use similar or less luxurious accomodations when compared to modern military men. Their accomodations have, in fact, never been shown anywhere. You cannot contradict a fact-based argument with speculation unless you're just trying to look like a jack-ass.

Moreover, the cost differential between a 10-year training/boarding period and a 3-month training period is insanely large even if the short program is many times more expensive per day; your attempt to dismiss it borders on idiotic.

What you don't seem to get is that the Empire incurs no additional cost in training orphans or any form of recruit or conscript in life skills. It only incurs the cost of the military training. Clones it must pay an additional amount for such life skill training.

I got that. I only think that teaching those is not more costly than the children's 'clearing up'.

What you think is irrelevant; what you can back up with facts is relevant. It has already been pointed out that the cost of clonetroopers includes 10 years of room, board, food, and life training. Note that infants require far more supervision than children, who in turn require far more supervision than adults. You must show that their operating costs are so much lower that they wipe out this massive initial cost when compared to recruits, and you have not even attempted to do so. You merely appeal to ignorance and argue that because we cannot absolutely prove that it is NOT the case, that it probably is.

[PainRack]

I have a question.

Assuming we're examing the viability of the orphaned children as a recruting source for stormtroopers, are we going to recruit them as adults or as children? If the later, we have the same objections involved as against clones.

If its the later, won't we be facing a significant problem in terms of the emotional stability of orphans, forcibly conscripted into an Empire that expects them to die? Excluding the use of brainwashing, how could the use of orphans not lead to the high desertion rates of france conscript army and create a mentally disciplined force, utterly loyal to the Empire?

[Darth Wong]

I have a question.

Assuming we're examing the viability of the orphaned children as a recruting source for stormtroopers, are we going to recruit them as adults or as children? If the later, we have the same objections involved as against clones.

True. I don't understand the justification for the orphan argument unless they're already in late adolescence. I'm talking about ordinary recruits, such as you'd use to do something like staffing the Death Star. After all, training and raising and breeding a clonetrooper for years in order to serve as a glorified security guard would be quite the waste of resources.

[Sea Skimmer]

True. I don't understand the justification for the orphan argument unless they're already in late adolescence.

I believe the original idea was to scoop them up as they leave preexisting state run orphanages and thus had already had a basic education and a nice indoctrination into the glory of the Empire. Train them for year or two and the resulting solider will give you a good twenty-five years of service.

The clones use similar or even less luxurious accomodations continuously for a lifetime without moral problems. I simply doubt it could be reached with someone who lived normal life for a while.

Ever seen the accommodations on a wooden fighting ship? In the 1880's the USN was able to amply stock its ships with volunteers who where quite willing to sleep in a narrow hammock and go on a deployment lasting three to five years. And this was without any brainwashing.

Having your own tube is better then that since at least you could lay down any time you wanted. And Japanese hotels make money selling such sleeping space..

[vakundok]

You have not provided a shred of evidence that clones use similar or less luxurious accomodations when compared to modern military men. Their accomodations have, in fact, never been shown anywhere. You cannot contradict a fact-based argument with speculation unless you're just trying to look like a jack-ass.

In the novelisation Obi-van was led trough a narrow tunnel full of transparent tubes. He was surprised when the clones climbed into the tubes, took position and fell asleep.

Moreover, the cost differential between a 10-year training/boarding period and a 3-month training period is insanely large even if the short program is many times more expensive per day; your attempt to dismiss it borders on idiotic.

Please read earlier posts. We are talking about the costs of using (brainwashed) orphaned children vs clones. You are talking about adult conscripts.

What you think is irrelevant; what you can back up with facts is relevant. It has already been pointed out that the cost of clonetroopers includes 10 years of room, board, food, and life training. Note that infants require far more supervision than children, who in turn require far more supervision than adults. You must show that their operating costs are so much lower that they wipe out this massive initial cost when compared to recruits, and you have not even attempted to do so. You merely appeal to ignorance and argue that because we cannot absolutely prove that it is NOT the case, that it probably is.

See above, I did not talk about adult recruits.
Facts:
1. GL decided that the stormtroopers are (at least partially) clones but hasn't said a word yet about that they would use a different cloning method. (In the EU, yes, but GL doesn't seem to really care about the EU.)
2. Kamino produced armies in the past. '... one of the finests we have ever created'- if I remember well.
3. Normal children here start learning at the age of six. Since kaminoian clones reach that level after three years, they can receive several years of training. You cannot give the same training in a few months.

[Illuminatus Primus]

1. GL decided that the stormtroopers are (at least partially) clones but hasn't said a word yet about that they would use a different cloning method. (In the EU, yes, but GL doesn't seem to really care about the EU.)

Argument from Ignorance. The EU explanation is what we have and it isn't contradicted, so its the real story.

[vakundok]

The clones use similar or even less luxurious accomodations continuously for a lifetime without moral problems. I simply doubt it could be reached with someone who lived normal life for a while.

Ever seen the accommodations on a wooden fighting ship? In the 1880's the USN was able to amply stock its ships with volunteers who where quite willing to sleep in a narrow hammock and go on a deployment lasting three to five years. And this was without any brainwashing.

Having your own tube is better then that since at least you could lay down any time you wanted. And Japanese hotels make money selling such sleeping space..

1. They couldn't. They went to sleep together.
2. 'lasting three to five years' and 'for a lifetime without moral problems' (without any special compensation) are quite different.
3. The clones are genetically engineered not to be too independent. So they will never even question the orders.
4. Normal soldiers require payment (apart from the feeding and such). Clones do not.

[vakundok]

1. GL decided that the stormtroopers are (at least partially) clones but hasn't said a word yet about that they would use a different cloning method. (In the EU, yes, but GL doesn't seem to really care about the EU.)

Argument from Ignorance. The EU explanation is what we have and it isn't contradicted, so its the real story.

Please? What argument was based on that? I used the kaminoian style clones as the earliest example to show that it was not so irrational to use clones instead of orphaned children. A faster cloning method only supports my point better.

[Ender]

You have not provided a shred of evidence that clones use similar or less luxurious accomodations when compared to modern military men. Their accomodations have, in fact, never been shown anywhere. You cannot contradict a fact-based argument with speculation unless you're just trying to look like a jack-ass.

In the novelisation Obi-van was led trough a narrow tunnel full of transparent tubes. He was surprised when the clones climbed into the tubes, took position and fell asleep.

You've never seen military accomadations, have you?