Bruce Lee

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-09-17 04:01am

Speaking of martial arts, why are so many of the stereotypical "white uniforms and colored belts" styles so divorced from reality? I'm sorry, but the first person who throws one of those silly horse-stance straight punches at me and leaves their fist hanging out there like that is getting an assbeating.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2003-09-17 05:00am

aerius wrote:
BoredShirtless wrote:If you measure the arts purely on moves, then yes, boxing has fewer. But when you start considering things like footwork, you also have to consider fitness, and the ability to take punishment. So taking everything into consideration, boxing is unmatched IMO.
Muay Thai, also known as Thai Kickboxing has boxing beat. One of the things they learn is how to dish out and absorb massive amounts of punishment. It has all the moves of boxing including the footwork but adds brutal knee & elbow strikes for close in work as well as kicks for fighting at long range. It also targets the lower body of the opponent to take away his ability to move & stand and generate power, something that boxing does not do. There are many strikes with the knees & elbows which can be done from a clinch, which boxing also doesn't do. A boxer would get his ass handed to him by a Muay Thai practitioner.

Put it this way. If they fought in a kickboxing bout, the kickboxer would win. In a boxing bout, the boxer would win. [I've seen many kickboxing bouts, and one thing that really catches my eye, each time, is that their boxing is just crap. This big Dutch guy one the K-1 recently: you should have seen him. He couldn't box for shit; heck he couldn't even throw a punch properly!]

I agree that kickboxers take a lot of punishment, and that they have more moves. But the fact they can't really box, together with their inferior footwork, makes them inferior to boxers.

aerius wrote:
Yeah, that's true. But a pro boxer would'nt get into a bear hug in the first place. If you were facing off against pro boxer, your only real chance would be to rush his legs and make him kiss dirt. If you can grapple, then his yours.
Nope, stay at range and kick him in the knees & legs to take away his ability to move & generate power.

And the boxer will just stand there with his thumb up his arse?

Boxers evade punches by ducking and weaving their upper body, and by moving backwards [most move backwards in a slant, but some, like the Undisputed Junior Welterweight Champion, the legend, Kostya Tszyu, can get away with moving backwards in a straight line]. And the thing about kicks is, it takes a lot longer to land then a punch. You miss with your kick, and the boxer will pounce!

aerius wrote: Kick him in the nuts and pound the crap out of him when he flinches in pain. A boxer can take punishment in his upper body and trains to absorb, dodge, & deflect strikes aimed at his upper body, but not for his legs since they are not a target area in competition. Target his weakness and whack him.

The problem is, boxers are just so much better then kick boxers in boxing, that their weakness is nicely compensated. Pitting a pro boxer against a pro kick boxer in a street fight, I'd put my money on the boxer. I just don't see how the kick boxer could stop the boxer from coming in and unloading.

StimNeuro · Post by **StimNeuro** » 2003-09-17 05:23am

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:Speaking of martial arts, why are so many of the stereotypical "white uniforms and colored belts" styles so divorced from reality? I'm sorry, but the first person who throws one of those silly horse-stance straight punches at me and leaves their fist hanging out there like that is getting an assbeating.

Those moves are more for practicing control than actual practical use. It's like forms that many places teach. They have little, if any, practical use, but they teach you discipline and control.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-09-17 08:49am

BoredShirtless wrote:The problem is, boxers are just so much better then kick boxers in boxing, that their weakness is nicely compensated. Pitting a pro boxer against a pro kick boxer in a street fight, I'd put my money on the boxer. I just don't see how the kick boxer could stop the boxer from coming in and unloading.

A sufficiently speedy kickboxer against a slower, heavier boxer might be able to land a solid kick in the groin or knee and then that would be the fight, as boxers aren't really trained to guard against it and he might be too slow to pull back in time. A quicker boxer would simply demolish his opponent.

When making JKD Bruce Lee studied a lot about boxing and fencing, because he found the Western arts to be the most scientific, economical, and free from traditionalist BS.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2003-09-17 10:20am

BoredShirtless wrote:Put it this way. If they fought in a kickboxing bout, the kickboxer would win. In a boxing bout, the boxer would win. [I've seen many kickboxing bouts, and one thing that really catches my eye, each time, is that their boxing is just crap. This big Dutch guy one the K-1 recently: you should have seen him. He couldn't box for shit; heck he couldn't even throw a punch properly!

I agree that kickboxers take a lot of punishment, and that they have more moves. But the fact they can't really box, together with their inferior footwork, makes them inferior to boxers.

No shit a boxer would win in a boxing match, what I'm talking about is how well a boxer would do in a UFC style match, or better yet a streetfight with no rules. If you restrict all the fighters to fighting within the rules of a certain style, in this case boxing, then it's obvious that the fighters specializing in that style will win. Remove the boxer from the limits which boxing rules impose and see how well he does, take away his taped hands & padded gloves and he'll break his hand when he gets a punch jammed with an elbow or he misses and punches into the guy's forehead. Ever watch boxing footwork? It does a damn good job of keeping the head & body away from being hit, but it leaves the legs vulnerable. This is something common to many martial arts unfortunately.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-09-17 10:32am

Professional boxers are vastly superior to professional kickboxers, simply because there's so much more money in boxing, and talent goes where the money is. The kickboxers I've seen switch to normal boxing have almost always been dismal failures.

(Muay Thai is a different story. There have been a number of Thai champions in the very low weights who started out fighting Muay Thai.)

But the average western kickboxer is a fat incompetent slob who wouldn't last three rounds with a boxer of equivalent ranking.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2003-09-17 10:39am

aerius wrote:take away his taped hands & padded gloves and he'll break his hand when he gets a punch jammed with an elbow or he misses and punches into the guy's forehead.

What, and the kickboxer wouldn't? If you remove the tape and gloves, of course the boxer won't go head hunting [but that's not to say he wouldn't pop him one on the chops if he sees an opening]. Neither would the kickboxer. Hands give before skulls, and that's a fixed rule for everyone.

Ever watch boxing footwork?

Yes. I've trained in both boxing and ninjitsu.

It does a damn good job of keeping the head & body away from being hit, but it leaves the legs vulnerable. This is something common to many martial arts unfortunately.

My point was the superior movement of the boxer would allow him to easily evade most kicks. And you're seriously overestimating the effectivness of kicks. They take too damn long [meaning you have more time to evade or block], and are more taxing. If kicks were such a sure thing as you're suggesting, why do kickboxers trade [or try to anyway] so many punches?

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-09-17 04:19pm

BoredShirtless wrote:
It does a damn good job of keeping the head & body away from being hit, but it leaves the legs vulnerable. This is something common to many martial arts unfortunately.
My point was the superior movement of the boxer would allow him to easily evade most kicks. And you're seriously overestimating the effectivness of kicks. They take too damn long [meaning you have more time to evade or block], and are more taxing. If kicks were such a sure thing as you're suggesting, why do kickboxers trade [or try to anyway] so many punches?

As you said, kicks are less likely to connect, but when they hit it tends to end the fight rather quickly (busting a knee, ankle, or gonad

). A boxer isn't trained to defend against blows coming from that area, and a slower one might miss the cues and fail to evade in time. But I'm still fairly certain that a boxer would tend to win most such fights.

Sumo wreslting, IMO, is the epitome of the combat art

pellaeons_scion · Post by **pellaeons_scion** » 2003-09-17 07:09pm

What, and the kickboxer wouldn't? If you remove the tape and gloves, of course the boxer won't go head hunting [but that's not to say he wouldn't pop him one on the chops if he sees an opening]. Neither would the kickboxer. Hands give before skulls, and that's a fixed rule for everyone.

Unless you use palm strikes

Seriously, Ive seen the sabaki matches on pay tv, where its pretty much like no-holds barred kickboxing, cept they arent allowed to use fists, only palms. Not that it made much difference, the seemed well able to pummel their opponent into a bloody mess just as effectively, just without the broken knuckles of a boxer

On UFC...Im unconvinced of it being the'ultimate' fighting championship. Last I looked at it the rules seemed heavily in favour of grapplers and ground fighters. It was a few years ago but I remember a ninjutsu stylist being disqualified for using claw strikes and attacks to the softer parts of the body(groin, throat, eye gouge)...I thought it was supposed to be no-holds barred. Any one got a copy of UFC rules?

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2003-09-17 08:46pm

pellaeons_scion wrote:On UFC...Im unconvinced of it being the'ultimate' fighting championship. Last I looked at it the rules seemed heavily in favour of grapplers and ground fighters. It was a few years ago but I remember a ninjutsu stylist being disqualified for using claw strikes and attacks to the softer parts of the body(groin, throat, eye gouge)...I thought it was supposed to be no-holds barred. Any one got a copy of UFC rules?

It isn't. And there's a big difference between "no holds barred" and "no techniques barred". The former means you can use any choke hold or submission hold that you want and says nothing about other moves, the latter means you can do whatever you want to your opponent including hair pulling, nose biting, and whatever else you can think of.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-09-17 09:38pm

On a semi-related note, I've heard of a number of boxers who study other fighting styles, on top of the one they make their living at. I believe Kevin Kelley, featherweight champ back in the mid-90's, has a black belt in... something. And Roy Jones Jr. had a deal going on with a Pensacola-area karate instructor, whereby each would teach the other about their respective styles.

(The last guy you want to meet in an alley: The world-champion boxer who has a black belt on the side. Meh heh heh.)

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2003-09-18 05:12am

Pablo Sanchez wrote: Sumo wreslting, IMO, is the epitome of the combat art

How fit are those guys? I remember this Discovery program [or was it National Geographic? Always getting those two mixed up] on Sumo's. Although they're fat, they're just so fit.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-09-18 02:16pm

BoredShirtless wrote:
Pablo Sanchez wrote: Sumo wreslting, IMO, is the epitome of the combat art
How fit are those guys? I remember this Discovery program [or was it National Geographic? Always getting those two mixed up] on Sumo's. Although they're fat, they're just so fit.

There is a common mis conception that Sumo's are just fat Japanese slobs who throw each other arround. There is deep training and discipline involved in learning this art. While the guys involved do pack a lot of beef it also takes a strong body to control that weight effectivly.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-09-18 02:49pm

pellaeons_scion wrote:...I thought it was supposed to be no-holds barred. Any one got a copy of UFC rules?

As far as i know they're:

1) No attacks to the groin/testicles.

2) No eye gouging/clawing/etc.

3) No "fish-hooking" (inserting a finger of two into the mouth/nose and pullin)

4) Do as the ref says.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-09-18 03:30pm

Lord Pounder wrote:There is a common mis conception that Sumo's are just fat Japanese slobs who throw each other arround. There is deep training and discipline involved in learning this art. While the guys involved do pack a lot of beef it also takes a strong body to control that weight effectivly.

From what I know, they're as dedicated and disciplined as athletes in any other sport, with training aimed towards increasing mass and power. For their size they can move very quickly and they've got a lot of momentum.

But more seriously, in terms of effectiveness and lethality I would tend to rank Fencing and Boxing at the very top of the fighting sports. Turkish wrestling also gets a nod, though