StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Super-Gagme wrote:
Edit: It also seems to me that people want to call them Destroyers so they can fan wank over the empire claiming it should be X amount bigger.

Naturally. Its not like there was a Command Ship that was many times bigger then an ISD that was common enough it's appearence around a certain sanctuary moon was not unusual because there was a lot of them. Because I was worried fir a second.

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:

Super-Gagme wrote:
Edit: It also seems to me that people want to call them Destroyers so they can fan wank over the empire claiming it should be X amount bigger.

Naturally. Its not like there was a Command Ship that was many times bigger then an ISD that was common enough it's appearence around a certain sanctuary moon was not unusual because there was a lot of them. Because I was worried fir a second.

Just because the Executor class was known doesn't mean the Empire had LOTS of them. Furthermore it is not uncommon for cruiser level ships to be used in escort for much more important ships in certain situations.

Alyeska wrote:Just because the Executor class was known doesn't mean the Empire had LOTS of them.

HAN (indicating the Executor): ...there are a lot of command ships...

Anyways, it is known how many Executor-class ships were in existance at the time of Endor. I think it's somewhere between 10-20, but I don't remember.

And the fact that there existed 2 death stars and even one Executor proves that the Empire is capable of making many ships larger than the ISD.
There, we know that they can do it, but, hm, do we know whether or not they did? Hm, let's see, oh, wait, that's right, the answer is YES.

Alyeska wrote:
Just because the Executor class was known doesn't mean the Empire had LOTS of them.

Luke: That's Vader's ship
Han: Now don't get gittery Luke. There are a lot of Command Ships.

Furthermore it is not uncommon for cruiser level ships to be used in escort for much more important ships in certain situations.

Not when the 'cruiser' is less then a tenth of the length of the ship its escorting.

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Luke: That's Vader's ship
Han: Now don't get gittery Luke. There are a lot of Command Ships.

Subjective statement. We have no more evidence then 20 of these ships existing. Thats not a WHOLE lot all things considered. Given the size of the Imperial navy I find it odd they would have less then 1% of their fleet higher then destroyer level.

Not when the 'cruiser' is less then a tenth of the length of the ship its escorting.

This stems from the SSDs massive size over everything else. The role performed by the ISD fits cruiser perfectly. Trying to fit the ISD with the SSD does not work. The SSDs are overly large ships that do not fit classification properly.

Robert Treder wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Just because the Executor class was known doesn't mean the Empire had LOTS of them.

HAN (indicating the Executor): ...there are a lot of command ships...

Anyways, it is known how many Executor-class ships were in existance at the time of Endor. I think it's somewhere between 10-20, but I don't remember.

And the fact that there existed 2 death stars and even one Executor proves that the Empire is capable of making many ships larger than the ISD.
There, we know that they can do it, but, hm, do we know whether or not they did? Hm, let's see, oh, wait, that's right, the answer is YES.

Yes, the Empire is capable of building thips larger then the ISD, they just choose not to. For some reason the ISD represents the most significant chunk of the Empires offensive capabilities.

Of course we can't forget the fact that one must support all the ships built. There is a reason why the Empire doesn't build more of the larger ships. It doesn't necessarily have the manpower.

Alyeska wrote:

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Luke: That's Vader's ship
Han: Now don't get gittery Luke. There are a lot of Command Ships.

Subjective statement. We have no more evidence then 20 of these ships existing. Thats not a WHOLE lot all things considered. Given the size of the Imperial navy I find it odd they would have less then 1% of their fleet higher then destroyer level.

Since when is the Executor the only ship bigger then a SD? Besides, I doubt there are only 20 when a 2 bit warlord in Darksaber was able to build them and most major fleets have them.

This stems from the SSDs massive size over everything else. The role performed by the ISD fits cruiser perfectly. Trying to fit the ISD with the SSD does not work. The SSDs are overly large ships that do not fit classification properly.

What about the 17.5km Eclipse, whose construction IIRC started before Endor? Or the 15km Sovereigns? Or the various km long cruisers seen in DE?

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Since when is the Executor the only ship bigger then a SD? Besides, I doubt there are only 20 when a 2 bit warlord in Darksaber was able to build them and most major fleets have them.

While SOME warlords have had them, most of these warlords were people who had access to them before the breakup of the Empire. Furthermore it is clear that various SSDs were relative rareties bassed on EU references.

What about the 17.5km Eclipse, whose construction IIRC started before Endor? Or the 15km Sovereigns? Or the various km long cruisers seen in DE?

Note that I said SSDs. I was talking in the plural about all the various classes. Even when you factor them all together, the Empire had less then 1% of its fleet above the size of ISDs.

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote: Since when is the Executor the only ship bigger then a SD? Besides, I doubt there are only 20 when a 2 bit warlord in Darksaber was able to build them and most major fleets have them.

Thrawn, I really don't think you want to use that example. Immediately after they saw it, Daala commented that the Executor had nearly bankrupted the Empire.

Alyeska wrote:This stems from the SSDs massive size over everything else. The role performed by the ISD fits cruiser perfectly. Trying to fit the ISD with the SSD does not work. The SSDs are overly large ships that do not fit classification properly.

Type is largely determined by tonnage as well, Alyeska.

Alyeska wrote:While SOME warlords have had them, most of these warlords were people who had access to them before the breakup of the Empire. Furthermore it is clear that various SSDs were relative rareties bassed on EU references.

Just because most of them had been culled by the fall of Coruscant is not significant. Years of internecine war within the various faction for control of the Imperial Centre and with the warlords had already emasculated the Empire by the first major NR push Coreward years after ROTJ. Hell, we have sources talking about how just among the twelve Grand Admirals Executor-class ships were lost. And this is neglecting the Navy reserves recalled by Palpatine in the Deep Core. Given the predominance of the "Saxton-scale" Imperial Navy (as opposed to the Sector Groups and Starfleets belonging to the Sectorial Moffs and Regional Grand Moffs) vessels of the larger brand, it is highly likely that many remaining Executor-class vessels were recalled in addition to many of the Navy's large-scale battleships, cruisers, battlecruisers, and carriers. Afterall, we find the post-ROTJ Empire starved of them, it follows that the Executor-class would probably follow a similar fate.

The Kernel wrote:Thrawn, I really don't think you want to use that example. Immediately after they saw it, Daala commented that the Executor had nearly bankrupted the Empire.

She was obviously mistaken, or using an odd definition of "nearly." The Executor could not possibly have nearly bankrupted the Empire, since they were able to secretly build DSII only years after building the Executor (not to mention the other Executor-class ships).

Alyeska wrote:Yes, the Empire is capable of building thips larger then the ISD, they just choose not to.

Are we forgetting Something?

For some reason the ISD represents the most significant chunk of the Empires offensive capabilities.

That "some reason" wouldn't happen to be this one, would it?

Of course we can't forget the fact that one must support all the ships built. There is a reason why the Empire doesn't build more of the larger ships. It doesn't necessarily have the manpower.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Empire cannot crew a large navy? Perhaps you missed the part where the Empire has easily more than HUNDREDS OF QUADRILLIONS of citizens,* not to mention droids.

*(Here's a reminder, in case you did miss it. Note particularly Publius and Nhik Rath's posts)

Alyeska wrote:

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Since when is the Executor the only ship bigger then a SD? Besides, I doubt there are only 20 when a 2 bit warlord in Darksaber was able to build them and most major fleets have them.

While SOME warlords have had them, most of these warlords were people who had access to them before the breakup of the Empire.

I'm talking about BUILDING an Executor. A warlord in Darksabe and was in the same league of a handful of other warlords who only had a handful of ISD+

Furthermore it is clear that various SSDs were relative rareties bassed on EU references.

As I recall, several battles during the Imperial Civil War resulted in the destruction of several Executors.

What about the 17.5km Eclipse, whose construction IIRC started before Endor? Or the 15km Sovereigns? Or the various km long cruisers seen in DE?

Note that I said SSDs. I was talking in the plural about all the various classes. Even when you factor them all together, the Empire had less then 1% of its fleet above the size of ISDs.

What I was replying to you saying the Executor was oversized and couldn't be classified. How did you get this number?

The Kernel wrote:

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote: Since when is the Executor the only ship bigger then a SD? Besides, I doubt there are only 20 when a 2 bit warlord in Darksaber was able to build them and most major fleets have them.

Thrawn, I really don't think you want to use that example. Immediately after they saw it, Daala commented that the Executor had nearly bankrupted the Empire.

Which means she's insane or exagerating.

And contrary to Alyeska's opinion, there's easily thousands of the higher-end "Saxton-scale" Imperial Navy vessels in the reserves in Byss' orbit. The withdrawls accounted for in the DESB more than explain said ships' absence in the EU, and convienently, the missing expected Executor-class ships as well.

What I want to know is why the hell would the Empire recall all the largest warships away from the front? Yeah, I can see it now.

Moff 1: "Hey, I have an idea! Let's gut our fleet by hiding all our best warships so that the Rebels can easily overrun us!"

Moff 2: "Yeah! Let's do that!"

Grand Moff Whosit: "Motion on the floor, all in favor?"

Committee of Moffs: "Aye!"

Sure, Wilbur. It makes no sense.

We should point out that the Trade Federation had the resources to deploy thousands of TF battleships to completely blockade a single, insigifnicant Outer Rim planet. A single TF battleship VASTLY outmasses a Star Destroyer - Thousands alone would be equal to the 25,000 ISD's.

I also seem to recall the SWAJ generally establishing a lower limit of 16 Executor class, and that was way back when WEG was still publishing - there was suggestion there were more.

Moreover, how does one explain a group like Black Sword Command supposedly controlling 3 such vessels? As I recall they were something on the order of a Sector Group.

Ender wrote: Everything is called a cruiser, so it not a valid way of telling.

Which applies equally well to calling them destroyers because they are "Star Destroyers", or "Star Cruisers" for that matter. Doesn't really help your argument any, does it? Especialyl when there is in fact a vast difference in size and role between the ISD and the CC/Republic cruiser (Aside from the fact one is from the Empire and another is from the "Republic" which has nothing close to the Empire's Navy.)

We see larger ships titled "star Cruisers", not described as such. And thier role is identifed by comparing what they do in the movies and novels with the textbook definitions of the ship classes

You should really do some better research before you go spouting off facts.

1.) First off, the "Star Destroyer" designation, given its capitalization and reference (both in terms of "Star Destroyer" both in TESB and "Super Star Destroyer" in ROTJ) suggest they are merely titles. The same is equally true of "Star Cruiser". This can be further reinforced by the existence of ships called "Star Defenders" - are you suggesting there is a ship designation of "Defenders?"

2.) They are referred to as "Cruisers" or "Imperial cruisers", in all three of the OT novelizations. They are also labeled "cruisers" on the official SW.com website. You will note that such naming of "cruisers" is lowercase, not capitalized.

3.) The Liberty, the first ship destroyed by the second Death Star, was also labeled a "Star Cruiser", yet is comparable in size and dimensions to a Star Destroyer. For that matter, its inferred alot of smaller vessels are "Rebel Cruisers" or "Star Cruisers" as well (IE the fact that "Dozens" of "Cruisers" engaged the I mperial fleet, etc.) Furthermore we know most "Star Cruisers" are only 1.2-1.3 km long, typically. This fits more closely with my side than yours, in fact - the only difference being is that the ISD would simply be "light" cruiser (which I see no problem with concluding) and that much larger ships (such as perhaps the communications ship in ROTJ) are much larger cruisers. Seems to fit more with my argument than with yours, doesn't it?

So at best, even *IF* the naming is just coincidental regarding "Imperial cruisers" (unlikely given the evidence), your argument also falls flat over reason 1 and 3.


Secondly, regarding roles of the "Star Destroyer", correct me if I am wrong (and please provide sources in doing so) but are not destroyers small, agile warships primarily dedicated to defensive/escort/recon mission roles? They hunted submarines, swept for mines, provided AAA support and anti-torpedo support, and scouted for enemy vessels. Cruisers were also support ships, but were multi-role offensive and defensive ships expected to assist larger battleships in battle (at least by engaging enemy cruisers, if not supporting against larger ships). They also supported ground assault operations, acted independently as commerce raiders or in convoy escort They even carried limited numbers of craft/planes/helicopters in some cases, but also carried enough heavy armament and armor to be able to effectively slug it out. They were also fast, but not neccesarily agile. And on top of that, they could also serve as command and control vessels of sorts in certain variants, although this was certainly not their main role or requirement. For that matter, a cruiser is more likely to be mistaken for a battleship than a destroyer is (battlecruiser/heavy cruiser, anyone?)

So unless you can do better than this to prove me wrong, what we see and read in the canon and EU suggests something more along the lines of a cruiser than a destroyer.

Outmasses, yes. But a Star Destroyer would pick one apart.

You notice that they "blockaded" Naboo by ringing the equator? What really boggles the mind, though, is that the Queen's transport flew right at the blockade. From the List of Things to Do if you are Ever the Hero: "There are three dimensions in space. I do not need to attack on the same plane as my opponent." I assume that you don't have to evade on the same plane that your opponent is attacking on either.

Rogue 9 wrote:Outmasses, yes. But a Star Destroyer would pick one apart.

I didn't say they were militarily comparable. For one thing hte TF battleship was more of a fighter/troop carrier, second it was a converted warship, and third the Trade Federation are demonstrated morons.

You notice that they "blockaded" Naboo by ringing the equator? What really boggles the mind, though, is that the Queen's transport flew right at the blockade. From the List of Things to Do if you are Ever the Hero: "There are three dimensions in space. I do not need to attack on the same plane as my opponent." I assume that you don't have to evade on the same plane that your opponent is attacking on either.

They had rather clear line of sight on all the poles of the planet. Anything trying to get away could be shot down, or pursued by fighters. But even then, what do you expect from a glorified shipping company?

Connor MacLeod wrote:*snip*

Actually, the ISD very often seems to fill the role described by the USN (nix antisubmarine warface) and comparitive tonnage (which IS very important to classing--and LOA is not perfectly proportional to mass) seems to fit. Like I said, with the big Saxton-style fleets and such, the ISD is purchased and classed by name probably as a destroyer.

But most commonly in the Sector Groups its classed as a cruiser with the name holdover as it was designed/designated by KDY/High Command.

And the entire Mon Calamari shipline is scaled-down from the overall Imperial shipline. Therefore, a smaller or equal tonnage vessel to a Imperial Navy destroyer in the Calamarian fleet is easily a cruiser, and this fits with their roles. The Calamarian "Star Cruisers" are designed for heavy broadsides and their ovoid shapes accomodate larger reactors in a smaller LOA. They lack the speed and the troop accomodations as well as much of the figher/gunship support of the ISD, but are more heavily protected.

I'll attempt to find the USN link which pretty concisely describes the ISD's roles as seen, especially when used by the Imperial Navy higher-scale fleets, as opposed to the forces put together by Moffs for permanent occupation of their territories and suppressing revolt. The fact that the ISD ended up being used more and more as a mothership and fast battleship, especially as the EU goes on just proves that's what the Imperials had to work with (notice this is because all the biggish ships seem to be in clone Palpy's hands). Keep in mind the Iowa-class eventually became a glorified ground-installation bombardment platform whereas its original purpose and the designation of battleship refered to something else entirely.

I will under no circumstances argue that the ISD is always utilized as a destroyer. However, the grandiose main-line fleets (which I believe are part of the Navy as opposed to the local Starfleets under Marina's theory which does have support in ANH and WEG, the autonomy of local forces under Moffs and the noticably different make-up of centrally commanded forces) apppear to be fighting "Yesterday's War" if you will, use the ISD as a destroyer mostly, and as a support and escort vessel.

The fact it ended up being used locally more as a fast battleship and a de facto mothership for putting down revolts, and that the later incarnation of the Imperial II appears to be another step toward converting the "Yesterday's War"/Navy/KDY-scale destroyer into a cruiser or even fast battleship by the Sector Group/Calamarian scale.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

You notice that they "blockaded" Naboo by ringing the equator? What really boggles the mind, though, is that the Queen's transport flew right at the blockade. From the List of Things to Do if you are Ever the Hero: "There are three dimensions in space. I do not need to attack on the same plane as my opponent." I assume that you don't have to evade on the same plane that your opponent is attacking on either.

They had rather clear line of sight on all the poles of the planet. Anything trying to get away could be shot down, or pursued by fighters. But even then, what do you expect from a glorified shipping company?

?

I was under the impression the various calcs for the quantity of TF BBs at Naboo was dependent on the observation(?) that they totally englobed the planet at the distances seen in the opening scenes.

Destroyers can NEVER be turned into heavy cruisers and fast battleships. They lack the tonnage capability and the sheer size difference completely prevents it. Furthermore you still ignore the fact that the ISD class was used in the cruiser role quite often durring the height of the Empire. This and of course Connor brought up those nice little bits on it actualy being labeled a cruiser.

Alyeska wrote:Destroyers can NEVER be turned into heavy cruisers and fast battleships. They lack the tonnage capability and the sheer size difference completely prevents it. Furthermore you still ignore the fact that the ISD class was used in the cruiser role quite often durring the height of the Empire. This and of course Connor brought up those nice little bits on it actualy being labeled a cruiser.

You're being obtuse, Alyeska.

I said that the ISD can be used as a cruiser or better when its been classed against shit like Nebulon-Bs, Victory-class's, and Dreadnoughts.

Hence the double "scales" of ship-classings. The local ships from Carracks to Dreadnoughts and such that fill-in the navies needed for policing and local warfare are quite different from the enormous-scale Navies utilized by the Empire proper. When a mile-long multi-purpose vessel is being utilized as escort and support for eight-kilometer battleships, five- and twelve-kilometer battlecruisers, four-kilometer cruisers, and seventeen kilometer supercarrier/commandships, its not hard to see how it could be a heavy destroyer for those vessels, and even as much as a fast battleship or battlecruiser against a slew of picket ships classed as cruisers at a 600 meter LOA for smallish local and picket fleets (not to mention it fits in PERFECTLY with the independence/autonomy of the local fleets vs. the central Imperial Navy, fits in perfectly with the tonnage and quantities built for the overall Empire as a whole, and solves the various dichotomy problems. Hell, Alyeska, you can OBSERVE the difference between the last-Imperial era fleets and the Sector Groups, and the mainline armadas of the Empire at its height, and those same armadas recalled by the thousands to Byss. And you can see the difference in the ISD roles when serving with either scale of navy.

EDIT: Not to mention Alyeska, modern examples of cruisers and destroyers with very similar tonnages (the Kidd-class Destroyer and the Ticonderoga-class Cruiser, etc.) contradicts your false demand that a destroyer CANNOT serve as a cruiser in different circumstances. Quite frankly the ISD of Giel's fleet and Death Squadron and the Reserves of Byss is fighting a much different war than the ISD of the local Moff's Superiority Fleet to root-out a Rebel hide-out.

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:

The Kernel wrote:

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote: Since when is the Executor the only ship bigger then a SD? Besides, I doubt there are only 20 when a 2 bit warlord in Darksaber was able to build them and most major fleets have them.

Thrawn, I really don't think you want to use that example. Immediately after they saw it, Daala commented that the Executor had nearly bankrupted the Empire.

Which means she's insane or exagerating.

Or that KJA's a hack that doesn't understand economics

Robert Treder wrote:

The Kernel wrote:Thrawn, I really don't think you want to use that example. Immediately after they saw it, Daala commented that the Executor had nearly bankrupted the Empire.

She was obviously mistaken, or using an odd definition of "nearly." The Executor could not possibly have nearly bankrupted the Empire, since they were able to secretly build DSII only years after building the Executor (not to mention the other Executor-class ships).

Yes, I know that, I was being sarcastic.