Video Seems to Show Beheading of American

KrauserKrauser · Post by **KrauserKrauser** » 2004-05-11 11:31pm

So decapitating defenseless members of the other side in public is an appropriate civilized response? Sorry these mikes are just showing themselves to be the animals that they are. I was dismayed at the revelations as to the prison torture and trust the military to carry out appropriate punishment.

I have so many violent reactions to this hideous act. Since my father is over there working as a civilian contractor this hits even closer to home as it was unimaginable to hear those bastards have the man give a speech and then just slaughter him, and then think that my father could have been that man. The fuckers even declared the glory of their fucking pig god after killing him. Fuck those fuckers! What gives them the right to do shit like this and not expect a violent fucking retaliation in response. I'm so fucking pissed off.

Where the fuck is the outcry from the Islamic community? I don't hear the Imam's, clerics and other figures saying dick about it. Guess they think it's mighty fine then. Islam as a religion is starting to piss me the fuck off and well I'm just angry. Really angry. Not at the muslims I know, I understand that these are just some un-educated fuckwits brought up with an understanding that might makes right and the validity of terrorism. I also understand that this type of shit would have been continuing today but with Iraqi's torturing fellow Iraqi's instead. When the fuck is the middle east going to join us in this century, hell when are they going to get out of the middle ages?

Nope, not sorry for the cussing. Thought I would be but the outright disgust I feel for the citizenry in that area just brings it out in me. Fuck Iraq.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-05-11 11:48pm

KrauserKrauser wrote:So decapitating defenseless members of the other side in public is an appropriate civilized response?

Do you even bother reading before posting your bullshit? I defy you to find one person in this thread who has said that it was a "civilized" thing to do. However, the point remains: if you demand that other people treat your prisoners well, you need to treat your own prisoners well.

Where the fuck is the outcry from the Islamic community?

What difference does it make whether Muslims decry these actions?

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-05-11 11:48pm

I can't find the video anywhere. This may sound wierd, but I feel like I need to watch it.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-05-11 11:54pm

Vympel wrote:I can't find the video anywhere. This may sound wierd, but I feel like I need to watch it.

Trust me, it's not worth it. It's infuriating.

KrauserKrauser · Post by **KrauserKrauser** » 2004-05-12 12:16am

Darth Wong wrote:Do you even bother reading before posting your bullshit? I defy you to find one person in this thread who has said that it was a "civilized" thing to do. However, the point remains: if you demand that other people treat your prisoners well, you need to treat your own prisoners well.

True enough.

Darth Wong wrote:What difference does it make whether Muslims decry these actions?

Mainly my sensibilities. I want something to hold on to showing that the Islamic community is as outraged by this as I am. With school and my concern for my dad's safety being foremost in my mind I haven't been able to really analyze all the issues behind Iraq and have alotted those thoughts till after my dad gets back. Any apology by the nation of Islam would be invalid. These individuals are simply idiots, though sadly idiots with power to kill indiscriminately. What I want is for the nation of Islam to police itself. To clean its own shit up. If fundamentalist ideas are so wrong and against the Koran then excommunicate the fuckers. Oh wait Islam doesn't a structured organization. Well then that sucks for the world.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-05-12 12:22am

Darth Wong wrote:
Where the fuck is the outcry from the Islamic community?
What difference does it make whether Muslims decry these actions?

Mike, you don't think that if the Islamic community rose up and said that these actions were despicable and that no true Muslims should be doing anything like this, that such a statement would help at all in stablizing the country? Let me ask you another question: do you think that if Muslims in the United States were seen more actively opposing terrorist organizations that run things like this that that would reduce anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiment here?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-05-12 12:26am

Master of Ossus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Where the fuck is the outcry from the Islamic community?
What difference does it make whether Muslims decry these actions?
Mike, you don't think that if the Islamic community rose up and said that these actions were despicable and that no true Muslims should be doing anything like this, that such a statement would help at all in stablizing the country? Let me ask you another question: do you think that if Muslims in the United States were seen more actively opposing terrorist organizations that run things like this that that would reduce anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiment here?

Lots of Muslims around the world and particularly in America have gone to great lengths to say that they oppose Muslim fanaticism and violence. Many of them even make a point of claiming (somewhat tenuously) that the religion of Islam itself condemns these actions. It doesn't seem to have made any difference.

Americans speak often of Iraqis ignoring the good things they do and focusing on the bad. I would counter that Americans seem to ignore the good things Muslims say and focus on the bad. More specifically, they treat all Muslims as a monolithic organization, so when some "Imam" in Saudi Arabia says nothing, they blame all Muslims. A million Muslims in America can say that they oppose such behaviour, but it won't make any difference because they're not bigshots. They're not important enough for CNN.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-05-12 12:33am

Master of Ossus wrote: Mike, you don't think that if the Islamic community rose up and said that these actions were despicable and that no true Muslims should be doing anything like this, that such a statement would help at all in stablizing the country? Let me ask you another question: do you think that if Muslims in the United States were seen more actively opposing terrorist organizations that run things like this that that would reduce anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiment here?

The extremists would simply dismiss these people as "traitors" to Islam and ignore them or try and kill them.

KrauserKrauser · Post by **KrauserKrauser** » 2004-05-12 12:54am

Christianity and Islam and all religions have their fanatics. What is different that allows fanatacism in Islam to lead to more frequent violent outbreaks and terrorist acts when compared to other religions? If the tennents are equally peaceful, then what sort of system allows for more rampant violence in Islamic fundamentalism?

I suppose it partially comes from the lack of a central "beauracracy" that is found in such entities as the Roman Catholic church and other such religious entities with a well defined struture of influence and "power". Islam has so many sects that are viewed to be almost completely mutually exclusive and cannot be policied even within their various sects. They have allowed the fundamentalist's to gain so much power that they cannot stop them without fear of being killed in the process. The only way this trend toward terrorism can ever end is if the religion itself finally modernizes and make the changes necessary to remove the unfaithful from their ranks. The fundamentalists do not follow the Koran. The religion as a whole needs to say that. They need to say that those people are not Muslims. They do not believe in Mohammed and the peace of Islam, they simply are using it as a tool.

Yes, Mike the big guys need to say that. If all the Imam's got together on Meet the Press and Al-Jezzera(sp?) and said that those screw-heads that did things such as this in the name of Allah were all ex-communicated and are no longer welcome within the Muslim faith, then they would be finally showing that they are willing to share the responsibility for breeding such zealots. I want Is;am to own up for the creation of their fundamentalist tendencies and actively try to purge it from their religion, to eliminate their ties to the religion. But I honestly think they aren't willing to do that for their own safety and for the fact that they think there might be some truth behind the fundie's actions.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-05-12 12:58am

Darth Wong wrote: Lots of Muslims around the world and particularly in America have gone to great lengths to say that they oppose Muslim fanaticism and violence. Many of them even make a point of claiming (somewhat tenuously) that the religion of Islam itself condemns these actions. It doesn't seem to have made any difference.

True, and not to take anything away from what those Muslims have done, I think that if visible heads of Islamic states or important clerics from the Middle East began saying similar things, they could turn some heads. There will obviously still be terrorists and their ilk who ignore them, but I am personally convinced that it would both improve the moderate Muslim visibility and also damage the claims of the fundamentalist groups that they are fighting for Islam, or for Muslims, and could potentially even force them to give up these specious claims.

Americans speak often of Iraqis ignoring the good things they do and focusing on the bad. I would counter that Americans seem to ignore the good things Muslims say and focus on the bad. More specifically, they treat all Muslims as a monolithic organization, so when some "Imam" in Saudi Arabia says nothing, they blame all Muslims. A million Muslims in America can say that they oppose such behaviour, but it won't make any difference because they're not bigshots. They're not important enough for CNN.

You'll get no argument from me, here, which is why I think that Imams that DON'T support these things should stand up and say it, rather than giving their fundamentalist peers the public spotlight both in the Muslim world and the rest of the world.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2004-05-12 01:34am

Several people at work were outraged at this news. Which always surprises me because these same people were cheerleaders for this war. I'm not surprised they are angry, but that they don't seem to have seen this coming. There is a price to be paid for invading a country filled with zealots.
It is sad so many people are only slowly realizing that price. Its time to pack up and leave.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-05-12 03:19am

Vympel wrote:I can't find the video anywhere. This may sound wierd, but I feel like I need to watch it.

http://www.ogrish.com/index2.php

Remember what you're going to see before you click on the link located on this page.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-05-12 03:29am

As disturbing as I thought it would be. It's small size was a mercy (big pixels and all).

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-05-12 03:32am

Vympel wrote:As disturbing as I thought it would be. It's small size was a mercy (big pixels and all).

That's exactly what I was thinking while watching it.

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2004-05-12 03:34am

KrauserKrauser wrote:Christianity and Islam and all religions have their fanatics. What is different that allows fanatacism in Islam to lead to more frequent violent outbreaks and terrorist acts when compared to other religions? If the tennents are equally peaceful, then what sort of system allows for more rampant violence in Islamic fundamentalism?

On what grounds do you say that Muslims are more violent than people of other faiths? The largely Christian US and UK armed forces have killed far more people in Iraq than Muslims, Jews have killed far more people than Muslims in Israel/Palestine.

Most Islamic countries have been under formal and informal imperial control for hundreds of years leading to feelings of humiliation and resentment particularly amongst young males, they are unable to compete on the conventional battlefield and so turn to terrorism. The same thing happened with the IRA in Ireland whenever they tried a stand up fight with the British army they got trounced so instead they turned to unconventional warfare. The Catholic Church with you precious “central bureaucracy” did very little to stop the PIRA over the years.

KrauserKrauser · Post by **KrauserKrauser** » 2004-05-12 09:30am

Plekhanov wrote:
KrauserKrauser wrote:Christianity and Islam and all religions have their fanatics. What is different that allows fanatacism in Islam to lead to more frequent violent outbreaks and terrorist acts when compared to other religions? If the tennents are equally peaceful, then what sort of system allows for more rampant violence in Islamic fundamentalism?
On what grounds do you say that Muslims are more violent than people of other faiths? The largely Christian US and UK armed forces have killed far more people in Iraq than Muslims, Jews have killed far more people than Muslims in Israel/Palestine.

Most Islamic countries have been under formal and informal imperial control for hundreds of years leading to feelings of humiliation and resentment particularly amongst young males, they are unable to compete on the conventional battlefield and so turn to terrorism. The same thing happened with the IRA in Ireland whenever they tried a stand up fight with the British army they got trounced so instead they turned to unconventional warfare. The Catholic Church with you precious “central bureaucracy” did very little to stop the PIRA over the years.

Ok the IRA is a good example of a terrorist group with some religous ties. I personally have not heard much about recent attacks made by the IRA. What has Britain/Ireland done to limit these attacks?

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-05-12 09:35am

KrauserKrauser wrote: Ok the IRA is a good example of a terrorist group with some religous ties. I personally have not heard much about recent attacks made by the IRA. What has Britain/Ireland done to limit these attacks?

We all play nice and negotiate and do things in political boring committe sorts of ways...

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-05-12 10:05am

TrailerParkJawa wrote:It is sad so many people are only slowly realizing that price. Its time to pack up and leave.

As I've said before, I opposed the invasion of Iraq before it took place, but just "up and leaving" because we get a bloody nose would be the worst thing we could do. It would only cause countless American deaths in the future, for we've no stomach to finish what we started, and our enemies need only kill enough of us in order to send us whimpering into a corner -- not the message our enemies need to hear.

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2004-05-12 02:00pm

KrauserKrauser wrote:Ok the IRA is a good example of a terrorist group with some religous ties. I personally have not heard much about recent attacks made by the IRA.

That’s because the major Republican terrorist group the Provisional IRA has been stood down for quite a while now and is supposedly decommissioning and giving up it’s weapons. There are still a few much smaller groups such as the Real and Continuity IRA’s but they are much less effective than the PIRA.

What has Britain/Ireland done to limit these attacks?

First off we made it absolutely clear that the PIRA would never defeat us militarily. Comprehensive security measures crucially led by intelligence particularly the infiltration of Republican groups by informers and double agents made it increasingly difficult for the PIRA to act as did “Robust” measures which at the height of the troubles went up to deploying the SAS to “shoot to kill” terrorists whilst they were committing violent acts.

We undermined the PIRA’s base of support amongst the general population by taking away most of the factors that cause young Catholics to want to blow up Unionists and the British. Through measures such as: scrapping anti-catholic legislation, ending interment, no longer shooting human rights marchers, buying off moderate militants by giving them all high paying government jobs. And get this we actually NEGOCIATED with the terrorists until they agreed a ceasefire.

Crucially after we realising that in the medium and long term this was causing terrorism we:
Ended interment
Stopped shooting political marchers
Negotiated with hunger strikers

And things we didn’t do because it was obvious to even the most pig ignorant security officer that it would be counterproductive:
Carpet Bomb Ireland
Shell Republican areas in Northern Ireland
Practice widespread collective punishment
Demolish the homes of insurgents

Also on the subject of the PIRA many people (myself included) are still pissed off that the US government never did anything to stop the PIRA raising funds amongst the Irish-American population over there.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-05-12 02:27pm

KrauserKrauser wrote: Fuck Iraq.

So far from liberating it ey

Who even says they were iraqees. They might as be fundamentalists of another country (such as allied Saoudi Arabia like most of the 9/11 terrorists) who came to iraq to fight americans

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-05-12 02:29pm

wautd wrote:
KrauserKrauser wrote: Fuck Iraq.
So far from liberating it ey

Who even says they were iraqees. They might as be fundamentalists of another country (such as allied Saoudi Arabia like most of the 9/11 terrorists) who came to iraq to fight americans

besides we already "fucked" the iraqi people after the first gulf war.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2004-05-12 03:34pm

jegs2 wrote:
TrailerParkJawa wrote:It is sad so many people are only slowly realizing that price. Its time to pack up and leave.
As I've said before, I opposed the invasion of Iraq before it took place, but just "up and leaving" because we get a bloody nose would be the worst thing we could do. It would only cause countless American deaths in the future, for we've no stomach to finish what we started, and our enemies need only kill enough of us in order to send us whimpering into a corner -- not the message our enemies need to hear.

More importantly, at least to me, is that we're responsible for this.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-05-13 08:18am

Durandal wrote: Islam as a religion is defined by its holy books, because its followers regard those books to be infallible or divinely inspired. If Osama bin Laden got all the Muslims around the world to hold hands and sing "Cumbaya," it wouldn't change the fact that Islam is a hateful religion that encourages violence against non-believers and promises rewards in the afterlife for fighting holy wars, dreamed up by someone who we'd probably consider dangerously mentally unstable today.

That's not extremely accurate either. The religious texts about war and jihad usually refer to God Judgement in the afterlife, prefaced by the need for tolerance or the need to defend one fellow muslim.

To put it simply, the Quran is a book that has so many myriad verses and can be easily manipulated to say anything anyone wants it to say. Just like the Bible. I wish I can recall how someone twisted Biblical verses to make it seem that God does not like to play golf.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-05-13 08:23am

KrauserKrauser wrote: Where the fuck is the outcry from the Islamic community? I don't hear the Imam's, clerics and other figures saying dick about it. Guess they think it's mighty fine then. Islam as a religion is starting to piss me the fuck off and well I'm just angry. Really angry. Not at the muslims I know, I understand that these are just some un-educated fuckwits brought up with an understanding that might makes right and the validity of terrorism. I also understand that this type of shit would have been continuing today but with Iraqi's torturing fellow Iraqi's instead. When the fuck is the middle east going to join us in this century, hell when are they going to get out of the middle ages?

AP already has various statements from muslims like a political expert from Kuwait and so forth commenting on this atrocity.

Can I say something? The US news media is not the most non-biased source of news ever. I seriously doubt you get to hear any form of Muslim outrage over this incident from there, or the main Arab networks either.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-05-13 08:26am

Keevan_Colton wrote: We all play nice and negotiate and do things in political boring committe sorts of ways...

You can call the politics in Northern Ireland a great many things. Boring is not one of them... especially in 'Marching Season' or whatever the hell its called. Thats equivilant of white Americans marching through Indian reservations on the aniversary of the Battle of Little Bighorn with flags and banners chanting "na na na na na na! hey Tonto we killed your grandpa!". I never understood that.