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Robert Walper wrote:

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Robert Walper wrote:Species 8472's ability to tear through hull plating and SIF fields is an indication of their enormous strength and durability, not weakness of Federation hulls.

No, that would indicate extreme weakness in the Federation hull. It's extremely doubt that a spindly bug monster in zero gravity could do much of anything to much more claw at the surface of a metal plate. IIRC, it's arms don't have a much greater crosssection than a human arms, and since it's organic it can't be all that vastly stronger.

Really, the ball is in your court to demonstrate that it's superstrengh on the part of the Bug Eyed Monster, not weakness in the hull. Really, a critter with millions of times the strength of a man despite similar arm size, a spindlier body, organic composition, the fact that the BEM was wounded at the time AND working without gravity as an anchor is a far more outrageous claim than really shitty materials on the part of the hull.

Except we have canon examples said hull can take an extremely impressive pounding and remain intact. But I leave the ball in Alyeska's court on that note, as he is far more versed on that specific issue than I am. I merely happen to agree with him.

Lets think about those examples, shall we?

Cause and Effect - yeah, don't want to go there, do ya?
Jem'Hadar ramming examples covered on Mike's page - as said, covered. Not impressive.
Voyager crashing into ice. No one's covered this AFAIK
Generations - As was pointed out, visably we see little damage, but there were gaps in the hull when Data recovered Spot.

And the killer factor here - the difference in pressure. Claws = smaller cross section = increased pressure for force.

So no, does not show 8472 being all that great.

Is it possible the 8472 guy just tore a panel off or some such? Might make it easier to crawl in.

Gandalf wrote:Is it possible the 8472 guy just tore a panel off or some such? Might make it easier to crawl in.

That's what I'm thinking. Through an airlock without using it or some such.

Ender wrote:

Gandalf wrote:Is it possible the 8472 guy just tore a panel off or some such? Might make it easier to crawl in.

That's what I'm thinking. Through an airlock without using it or some such.

It's possible, the ones on DS9 were easy to open.

BTW how would the beating the Enterprise (NX-01) took in "Azati prime" affect this debate.

Fed hulls are week, fed FORCE FIELDS are decent, and good at disapating energy...

It appears that forcefields cancel force fields as ramming and boarding seem to be effective tactics (Kazon boarding torpedo, Dominion War)

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Fed hulls are week, fed FORCE FIELDS are decent, and good at disapating energy...

It appears that forcefields cancel force fields as ramming and boarding seem to be effective tactics (Kazon boarding torpedo, Dominion War)

SIF isn't exactly force field. We've got several examples of Fed hulls surviving good impacts against planets. That SIF failures or some interaction reduces hull strength to more natural levels would explain the observed colission incidents.

How can people look at shuttles burrowing themselves 3 km into rock without significant visible structural damage and multi million ton saucers crashing on rocky ground almost completely intact (so there were a few holes in the very thin outer hull...whoop de do ) and then look at ONE incident of hull breach by something that doesn't even conform to Startrek's idea of physics and conclude all Federation hulls are made of tissue paper equivalent? By Gil's comments one would conclude Federation hulls are weaker than modern day materials--nothing we have today could survive re-entry the way the Ent-D did. Not even close. We are talking about orders of magnitude difference in strength.

Many examples of literally unbelievable strength > one example of poor resistence to something unknown and hard to quantify.

The Silence and I wrote:How can people look at shuttles burrowing themselves 3 km into rock without significant visible structural damage and multi million ton saucers crashing on rocky ground almost completely intact (so there were a few holes in the very thin outer hull...whoop de do ) and then look at ONE incident of hull breach by something that doesn't even conform to Startrek's idea of physics and conclude all Federation hulls are made of tissue paper equivalent? By Gil's comments one would conclude Federation hulls are weaker than modern day materials--nothing we have today could survive re-entry the way the Ent-D did. Not even close. We are talking about orders of magnitude difference in strength.

Many examples of literally unbelievable strength > one example of poor resistence to something unknown and hard to quantify.

I agree with this reasoning, however the arguement violates the "piss on Trek every chance we get" mentality I see at SDN.

Alyeska wrote:Never occured to you it might be holding on the hull through other means? Say magnitism. Hell, today there are people who are magnetic. I saw a guy put a bloody iron on his chest and it didn't fall. Also did you see any damage on the hull?

Ah yes, so the Bug Eyed Monster is so magnetic that it can stick to a hull in zero gravity and even resist the force of it ripping off a piece of hull, yet they can walk around inside a debris laden Borg cube without getting shit stuck to them constantly, never magnetically attract bits of metal around Federation ships (like crew members comm badges), or cause computer monitors to plotz themselves when it was sitting in sickbay.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Never occured to you it might be holding on the hull through other means? Say magnitism. Hell, today there are people who are magnetic. I saw a guy put a bloody iron on his chest and it didn't fall. Also did you see any damage on the hull?

Ah yes, so the Bug Eyed Monster is so magnetic that it can stick to a hull in zero gravity and even resist the force of it ripping off a piece of hull, yet they can walk around inside a debris laden Borg cube without getting shit stuck to them constantly, never magnetically attract bits of metal around Federation ships (like crew members comm badges), or cause computer monitors to plotz themselves when it was sitting in sickbay.

You're assuming that if Species 8472 actually has the ability to magnetically grip a metal hull, it must be magnetic at all times. Like any organism, Species 8472 should have voluntary and involuntary biological functions.

It seems to be more of a bash on biotech, which is even more common on this board and for good reason. No one loves the ubertech bio menace, whether he shows up in Star Trek or in the EU. Star Trek is just suffering because of the canon status of craptastic Voyager writing.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Never occured to you it might be holding on the hull through other means? Say magnitism. Hell, today there are people who are magnetic. I saw a guy put a bloody iron on his chest and it didn't fall. Also did you see any damage on the hull?

Ah yes, so the Bug Eyed Monster is so magnetic that it can stick to a hull in zero gravity and even resist the force of it ripping off a piece of hull, yet they can walk around inside a debris laden Borg cube without getting shit stuck to them constantly, never magnetically attract bits of metal around Federation ships (like crew members comm badges), or cause computer monitors to plotz themselves when it was sitting in sickbay.

magnetism was suggested as a possible mechanism at work. Not the definitive mechanism.

Personally, I suspect that their durability/strength/ability to manouver in zero-g comes from their other/multi-dimensional origin.

Other extra/multi-dimensional organisms have demonstrated abilities beyond normal organic constraints, such as the Spherebuilders of Ent, and the Founder/changelings of DS9. 8472 could very well be another example of this.

Robert Walper wrote:You're assuming that if Species 8472 actually has the ability to magnetically grip a metal hull, it must be magnetic at all times. Like any organism, Species 8472 should have voluntary and involuntary biological functions.

So, what, it can magically make itself into an absurdly powerful electromagnetic, for the sole purpose that you don't have to admit that it was digging its feet into Voyagers hull in walk and get leverage in zero gravity? So now you're saying that not only does your BEM have strength and durablity vastly beyond that of any other biological organism possibly can have so that rip though the outer hull of Voyager, but it's got a giant electromagnet in it!

...Isn't this striking you as increasingly rediculous?

Matt Huang wrote:Personally, I suspect that their durability/strength/ability to manouver in zero-g comes from their other/multi-dimensional origin.

Other extra/multi-dimensional organisms have demonstrated abilities beyond normal organic constraints, such as the Spherebuilders of Ent, and the Founder/changelings of DS9. 8472 could very well be another example of this.

Just because it comes from another dimension doesn't mean that it can ignore mechanics in this one. It's still a biological creature, which puts a limit on how strong it can be and how durable it is, and it still has to obey mechanics, which makes moving around and lifting/striking things in zero gravity a true bitch.

Besides, I thought that the BEM of Voyager were from the Beta Quadrant, which puts them squarely in this quadrant.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Robert Walper wrote:You're assuming that if Species 8472 actually has the ability to magnetically grip a metal hull, it must be magnetic at all times. Like any organism, Species 8472 should have voluntary and involuntary biological functions.

So, what, it can magically make itself into an absurdly powerful electromagnetic, for the sole purpose that you don't have to admit that it was digging its feet into Voyagers hull in walk and get leverage in zero gravity? So now you're saying that not only does your BEM have strength and durablity vastly beyond that of any other biological organism possibly can have so that rip though the outer hull of Voyager, but it's got a giant electromagnet in it!

...Isn't this striking you as increasingly rediculous?

And calling Fed hulls massive weak when they can withstand crashing into planets isn't ridiculous? Rather then say Fed hulls are automaticaly weak some of us are trying to figure out how the S8472 incident happened when we have known examples of the hulls being strong as well.

Alyeska wrote:And calling Fed hulls massive weak when they can withstand crashing into planets isn't ridiculous? Rather then say Fed hulls are automaticaly weak some of us are trying to figure out how the S8472 incident happened when we have known examples of the hulls being strong as well.

The problem is that you saying "crashing into a planet" without leaving out the details of the impact. For instance, in Generations, "crashing into the planet" is huge spin on what actually happened. The Enterprises saucer did not come close to slamming into the planet at a hard angle and at orbital velocities, but made a suprisingly controlled splash down on the planet. It came in at an extremely acute angle. In fact the bottom of the saucer was damn near parallel with the ground. This has a huge effect on how much of an impact an object makes when it touches down, since most of it's energy is vectored forward, and not directly into the ground. That means it was taking extremely little impact when the bottom touched down.

It's also a saucer shape, which is one of the more aerodynamic shapes in existance. Notice that it wasn't dropping like a rock, it was skipping over the surface of the planet and wasn't moving terribly fast (at orbital velocities, the forest would be an indistinctive blur, yet you could clearly see individual trees.

Then it proceded to skid across the landscape. At this point, the friction with the ground is a much bigger threat to the ship than KE, and it finally came to rest after plowing into a hill made of soil, not exactly a very rigid substance that it was no different in that situation, since it came up in an enormous cloud. Not only that, the didn't hit it straight on, once again they hit it at an acute angle.

What does this mean? To summarize, it was moving very slow and not directly hitting the ground but hitting it at a majorly shallow angle, then skidding a rather long distance before coming to rest thanks to its saucer shape and hitting a hill of dirt at a shallow angle. That sort of impact is very gentle on an object, as it's only enduring a meagre fraction of what it would have taken if it hit the ground like a meteor at a hard angle. The fact that it skidded and skipped so much is clear evidence of that.

This is all not evidence of superstrong materials. Modern materials in the same situation would have easily survived it too. At the speed and angle the saucer was moving, I have no doubt that the Space Shuttle could easily touch down and have the crew walk away from it with big grins on their astronaut faces.

Yet some how the Trekkies here are spinning this all into "OMG! T3h S4ucer slammed into a pl4n3t!!111! and sliced moutnains in half!!!1 It is t3h 0\/\/N!!!!!11" like it was something really special.

Gil Hamilton wrote: Just because it comes from another dimension doesn't mean that it can ignore mechanics in this one. It's still a biological creature, which puts a limit on how strong it can be and how durable it is,

However, that's a violation of Suspension of Disbelief. We analysis what members of Species 8472 actually can do as opposed to what logical, real world biological limitations say they "should" only be able to do.

We have canon examples of Trek hulls not being as weak as you claim. We have Species 8472 physically tearing through those hulls. We don't go turning around and casually dismissing multiple other examples of strong Trek hulls merely to favor one incident of a Trek hull being breached by an organic being.

and it still has to obey mechanics, which makes moving around and lifting/striking things in zero gravity a true bitch.

Despite ranting about how impractical or unlikely it is Species 8472 could tear through a metal hull, it did anyway. We employ Suspension of Disbelief, and we're not going to dismiss many previous examples of strong Federation hulls simply to appease your intent of downplaying Trek strengths, Gil. That's not honest or fair. We've already listed many examples of strong hulls of Federation built ships, and unless you refute them effectively, they stand.

Besides, I thought that the BEM of Voyager were from the Beta Quadrant, which puts them squarely in this quadrant.

BEM? Could you clarify that?

Gil, you just betrayed yourself. You just claimed modern materials could do what the saucer could. That is full of shit. From an egineering standpoint we could never do what the Saucer did. Hell, we can't even make something like that without it wanting to fall apart easily. And trying to crash it like that, no fucking way.

Gil Hamilton wrote:*snip*

You're focusing on one example, Gil.

-What about when the Delta Flyer crashed through 3 kilometers of rock and maintained structural integrity(ref STVOY "One Upon a Time")?

-What about when a heavily damaged Voyager, without shields or an operating deflector dish, was pounded heavily by a meteor shower and yet exposed areas like the bridge didn't even get a hull breach (ref STVOY "Year of Hell")?

-What about the Delta Flyer's ability to withstand water pressure, again without shields, at a depth of 600 kilometers (ref STVOY "Thirty Days")?

There are several other good examples, but those ones are just off the top of my head.

Alyeska wrote:Gil, you just betrayed yourself. You just claimed modern materials could do what the saucer could. That is full of shit. From an egineering standpoint we could never do what the Saucer did. Hell, we can't even make something like that without it wanting to fall apart easily. And trying to crash it like that, no fucking way.

Wouldn't the saucer section's re entry into a Earth-like atmosphere also boast impressive structural integrity and design? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the enormous heat generated by re entry would make the metal hull more susceptible to damage?

Robert Walper wrote:However, that's a violation of Suspension of Disbelief. We analysis what members of Species 8472 actually can do as opposed to what logical, real world biological limitations say they "should" only be able to do.

There are definite physical limits to how strong a creature can be based on cross-section of the manipulator and composition. A biological creature is not going to be ripping up industrial steel plates bolted to a steel frame, so if we actually see one ripping something up, especially under as funky strength nullifying conditions are zero-gravity, we have to conclude that the frame and the support is really weak, rather than the creature being superstrong.

We have canon examples of Trek hulls not being as weak as you claim. We have Species 8472 physically tearing through those hulls. We don't go turning around and casually dismissing multiple other examples of strong Trek hulls merely to favor one incident of a Trek hull being breached by an organic being.

You mean the ones like Generations that turn out that Trekkies are making a mountain out of molehill?

Despite ranting about how impractical or unlikely it is Species 8472 could tear through a metal hull, it did anyway. We employ Suspension of Disbelief, and we're not going to dismiss many previous examples of strong Federation hulls simply to appease your intent of downplaying Trek strengths, Gil. That's not honest or fair. We've already listed many examples of strong hulls of Federation built ships, and unless you refute them effectively, they stand.

Yes, it did rip through the hull. Under suspension of disbelief, we've got absolutely no choice but to conclude that Voyagers hull was extremely weak because of it, because frankly it's a less convoluted and much simplier explaination for what happened. In order to go the other way, you've already claimed that the BEM was millions of times stronger than a man, despite the fact it was in null gravity AND had just got schooled in a hand-to-hand fight with a Hirogen, AND that it was a powerful electromagnet in order to avoid claiming that it was gripping the hull with it's feet in order to walk and not fly off into space when it does lifting. At this point, the abilities that you're piling on the the S8472 is rediculous in order to maintain your belief that StarTrek hulls are really strong. It's a MUCH simplier explaination to conclude that it was able to breach the hull due to it being really weak.

BEM? Could you clarify that?

Bug Eyed Monster. It's a generic sci-fi term dating back to the day for aliens which are creepy, sneaky, and generally alien. I call Xenomorphs in Aliens BEMs too. Species 8472 are classic BEMs.

Alyeska wrote:Gil, you just betrayed yourself. You just claimed modern materials could do what the saucer could. That is full of shit. From an egineering standpoint we could never do what the Saucer did. Hell, we can't even make something like that without it wanting to fall apart easily. And trying to crash it like that, no fucking way.

Like hell we can't. The Mars Rover made planet fall at much faster speeds and at a much harder angle with a bunch of freaking airbags between it and hard Martain surface, rolled a much less than the Enterprise skipped, and came out great. It says something that it hit with enough force to bounce up a few stories and over a kilometer from touch down, despite weighing half a ton.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Gil, you just betrayed yourself. You just claimed modern materials could do what the saucer could. That is full of shit. From an egineering standpoint we could never do what the Saucer did. Hell, we can't even make something like that without it wanting to fall apart easily. And trying to crash it like that, no fucking way.

Like hell we can't. The Mars Rover made planet fall at much faster speeds and at a much harder angle with a bunch of freaking airbags between it and hard Martain surface, rolled a much less than the Enterprise skipped, and came out great. It says something that it hit with enough force to bounce up a few stories and over a kilometer from touch down, despite weighing half a ton.

Actualy when the Saucer struck it was moving at a speed of about 300 meters per second. Thats around a thousand kilometers per hour. The Mars Rover bounced on Mars at a speed of maybe 150 kph. And remember, scale has everything to do with this. The smaller something is the easier it is to shock proof it. If we could build something that could crash into the planet like you suggest, care to explain what happened to Columbia?

Gil Hamilton wrote: Like hell we can't. The Mars Rover made planet fall at much faster speeds and at a much harder angle with a bunch of freaking airbags between it and hard Martain surface, rolled a much less than the Enterprise skipped, and came out great. It says something that it hit with enough force to bounce up a few stories and over a kilometer from touch down, despite weighing half a ton.

Big difference, Gil. No, skip that. Huge difference. The saucer section is vastly more massive than a one ton object with specific design emphasis on padding the impact and decelerating its descent.

The E-D's saucer is one solid piece with no padding. It's sheer size alone boasts it's structural intregity in a Earth like gravity field. I refer you to Mike's pages on how the more massive an object is, the more of it's strength is required to just to maintain it's own integrity (pay particular attention to his truck analogy). Never mind impacting a solid surface at high velocity with no padding or decelerating measures.