Remember the KGB's ideas of counter-terrorism? Its back!

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-10-29 09:59pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Shepp is.

Random guy? What the fuck? As Fgalkin said, these family members
are up in it to their fucking eyebrows, they're usually the ones who transmit
the fucking demands to the authorities themselves!!

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-10-29 10:04pm

MKSheppard wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Shepp is.
Random guy? What the fuck? As Fgalkin said, these family members
are up in it to their fucking eyebrows, they're usually the ones who transmit
the fucking demands to the authorities themselves!!

Shep wrote: And Make it quite clear that you WILL
kill every single last relative of the terrorist themself if they carry out their threats

You're blithely assuming that every single member of their family is automatically a terrorist themselves. You might as well take a random guy off the street.
How is a toddler going to be a terrorist, Shep?

Gambler · Post by **Gambler** » 2004-10-29 10:07pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
I'm not saying we should pick up a random guy off the street and threaten to kill him here.
Shepp is.

I wonder why he hasn't suggested to nuke the homevillage of the terrorists, after all, what would be a better deterrend than to know that the place were you where born with all your family and friends is forever gone, also it implies the use of nukes, and we all know how much Shepp loves nukes

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2004-10-29 10:42pm

MKSheppard wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Shepp is.
Random guy? What the fuck? As Fgalkin said, these family members
are up in it to their fucking eyebrows, they're usually the ones who transmit
the fucking demands to the authorities themselves!!

You seem to have some difficulty understanding how individuals differ from their families, on the off chance that you’ve never actually experienced people who fail to share their families opinions on everything I thought I’d share an example from my family which might hopefully help you understand that a shared surname or bloodline doesn’t equal the same opinions.

My Uncle like his father and mother is a fundamentalist Christian, as are all his offspring, his brother and sisters are agnostic as are as far as I’m aware their children, one of his brothers in law (my father) is a Methodist, of his offspring 3 are agnostic 1 is atheist and his daughter in law is a pagan. That’s just religion as for politics between us we have supporters/members of the pro-life party, UKIP, Conservatives, Labour and the Lib Dems.

Don’t you get it you DUMB FUCK we live in a world where people can and do differ from their relatives (I mean it’s entirely possible than some of your relatives aren’t genocidal psychopaths and that you just got dropped on your head) your assumption that “these family members “are up in it to their fucking eyebrows,” is idiotic even by your standards (and that really is saying something) take a cold shower and grow the fuck up you blood thirsty bigot.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-10-29 10:45pm

Gambler wrote: I wonder why he hasn't suggested to nuke the homevillage of the terrorists, after all, what would be a better deterrend than to know that the place were you where born with all your family and friends is forever gone, also it implies the use of nukes, and we all know how much Shepp loves nukes

And best of all, even if it didn't stop the terrorists, eventually their entire civilizations would be pounded into extinction. Of course, this method won't work too well on US domestic terrorists, but the new Imperial Guards will take care of those.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-10-30 12:51am

salm wrote:
fgalkin wrote: THEY ARE proven guilty, you dipshit. I'm not saying we should pick up a random guy off the street and threaten to kill him here.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
liar:

you were talking about relatives. period.

you weren´t talking about relatives "who are proven to be terrorists".

if you were talking about proven terrorists all the time why the hell did it take you two pages to say so? are you just flame baiting?
and it was already mentioned several times why your whole point is bunk if you´re talking about proven terrorists.

god, get rid of that wall infornt of your head.

Ever heard of due process and freedom from torture? well, under the new law, that doesn't apply to terrorist supporters. And yes, most of the family members of the Chechen terrorists are involved in it, too. Why, because they all belong to the same clan which is at war with Russia.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-10-30 01:21am

Plekhanov wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Shepp is.
Random guy? What the fuck? As Fgalkin said, these family members
are up in it to their fucking eyebrows, they're usually the ones who transmit
the fucking demands to the authorities themselves!!
You seem to have some difficulty understanding how individuals differ from their families, on the off chance that you’ve never actually experienced people who fail to share their families opinions on everything I thought I’d share an example from my family which might hopefully help you understand that a shared surname or bloodline doesn’t equal the same opinions.

My Uncle like his father and mother is a fundamentalist Christian, as are all his offspring, his brother and sisters are agnostic as are as far as I’m aware their children, one of his brothers in law (my father) is a Methodist, of his offspring 3 are agnostic 1 is atheist and his daughter in law is a pagan. That’s just religion as for politics between us we have supporters/members of the pro-life party, UKIP, Conservatives, Labour and the Lib Dems.

Don’t you get it you DUMB FUCK we live in a world where people can and do differ from their relatives (I mean it’s entirely possible than some of your relatives aren’t genocidal psychopaths and that you just got dropped on your head) your assumption that “these family members “are up in it to their fucking eyebrows,” is idiotic even by your standards (and that really is saying something) take a cold shower and grow the fuck up you blood thirsty bigot.

No, YOU live in a world where people differ from the relatives. The Chechens llive in a world where having a blood feud between clans is considered a fun passtime activity. And guess what, lots of Chechen clans have a boold feus wirh Russia. Therefore, you got it, the entire clan a)is trying to kill the Russians, or b) helping to kill the Russians. If you don't participate, you're disowned.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-10-30 01:32am

fgalkin wrote: Strawman. I said I am willing to punish the GUILTY.

No problem then. So these relatives will of course be given the full due process of law to show that they are guilty? Trial by a jury of their peers?

If you don't keep in touch with your uncle, than holding you as a hostage would hardly have any weight with him, would it?

Bullshit, I am in a very tight knit family. Besides, you are still arguing that a family member MUST have full knowledge of the activities of another or else face death.

Do you suffer from lack of reading comprehension? There's a metric ton of eveidence linking their families to their acitivyt. The terrorists at Beslan contacted the authorities THROUGH THEIR FAMILIES. Does that count as zero evidence?

EACH INDIVIDUAL must be given full due process under law in a civilized state. Your "mountains of evidence" aren't worth shit if you can't directly link an individual to a crime. And in your hypothetical scenario, you can't and you know it.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-10-30 02:17am

I would think that prevention of terrorist acts is more important than the rights of terrorists.

However, we all know that Putin is not going to follow the rules I set out in this thread, and will, in fact, use guilt by association. Not to mention the victims of it will be his politicla opponents, who have very little to do with Chechnya. As such, this discussion is pointless.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-10-30 05:12am

fgalkin wrote:I would think that prevention of terrorist acts is more important than the rights of terrorists.

Prove that the individuals in question are terrorists and then we can talk. Until you do, all you are arguing for is taking away the rights of people that you THINK are terrorists.

However, we all know that Putin is not going to follow the rules I set out in this thread, and will, in fact, use guilt by association. Not to mention the victims of it will be his politicla opponents, who have very little to do with Chechnya. As such, this discussion is pointless.

Wow, what a cheap cop out. You know you are arguing an indeffensible position, yet you continue to hold onto the idea that depriving people of their rights without cause or proof is somehow acceptable and then you wonder why people like Putin can come to power in Russia in the first place. Maybe you should consider rethinking your own position before bitching about how the evils of your leaders are somehow a fluke and not representative of the mindset of the Russian people.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-10-30 05:28am

Sure. All Chechens are part of a family and a clan (known as a taip). When a Chechen does something, it is probably becuase the clan has decided it. So, if the terrorists are carrying out the will of the clan, then the other members of this clan are fair game. Simple, isn't it?

I don't wonder how people like Putin come to power. I know that what Putin is doing sits very well with the Russian mentality, which is why he's so goddamn popular.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-10-30 06:27am

fgalkin posted that he though Putin was going to abuse the power at the beginning of the thread. His point (I think) was the Putin was going to reinstitute a brutal policy that has some history of success and would probably use it as a weapon against his political enemies in the near future.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-10-30 09:02am

fgalkin wrote: Ever heard of due process and freedom from torture? well, under the new law, that doesn't apply to terrorist supporters. And yes, most of the family members of the Chechen terrorists are involved in it, too. Why, because they all belong to the same clan which is at war with Russia.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

this is getting stupid, we´re going round in circles and it´s leading nowhere.
so let´s start again.

1. do you support taking relatives of terrorists hostage if we don´t know if they´re connected to the terrorists act? please don´t give me the "most chechens are connected to terrorists" evasion again.
and i don´t care what the law is, i want to know weather YOU find it moral or not.

2. if yes, why do you think that innocent till proven guilty is less valuable than deterrant.

3. if no, what´s your point?

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-10-30 11:19am

Your argument is like Swiss cheese; full of holes.

fgalkin wrote:Sure. All Chechens are part of a family and a clan (known as a taip). When a Chechen does something, it is probably becuase the clan has decided it.

Only "probably" by your own admission. The terrorist "probably" got the go ahead from the clan, so all clan members are fair game. "Probably".....hmmmm.....

Then there's the fact that decisions made by the clan don't have to reflect EACH MEMBER. Majority rule? Dissent? You don't know if decisions passed with 100% backing, so once again a policy of picking up members without evidence is bullshit and immoral.

So, if the terrorists are carrying out the will of the clan, then the other members of this clan are fair game. Simple, isn't it?

Only if you're an imbecile.