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yeah, him.

He was the father of them all, sort off... Er... The prototype.

SirNitram wrote:

IG-88E wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote: But Obi wan and Qui-Gon weren't able to destroy the destroyer droids when they were trying to cut through the door to get to the viceroy, if telekinesis could have taken them out, then why didn't they do it? Could thier shields have interfered with thier force powers?

Um...concentration maybe? While your deflecting dozens of rapidfire blaster bolts, do you have the concentration fo summon the force, gesture, and send the droid flying? All quickly enough to not be hit in the process?

The Droidekas are more firmly planted on the ground, so they can't be pushed over. The shields on the ones on the ship also complicated matters.

I'd assume as much. Since you can't just send out a wave of TK and knock them over, you'd have to pick them up w/ TK and then slam them into something w/ TK with enough force to kill the shields or some other important system while simultaneously deflecting blaster bolts from twin double cannons.

A better question is why didn't they reach with the Force and screw w/ their internal systems like Skywalker did in Dark Empire and like Arca did in the Sith War.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

SirNitram wrote:

IG-88E wrote: Um...concentration maybe? While your deflecting dozens of rapidfire blaster bolts, do you have the concentration fo summon the force, gesture, and send the droid flying? All quickly enough to not be hit in the process?

The Droidekas are more firmly planted on the ground, so they can't be pushed over. The shields on the ones on the ship also complicated matters.

I'd assume as much. Since you can't just send out a wave of TK and knock them over, you'd have to pick them up w/ TK and then slam them into something w/ TK with enough force to kill the shields or some other important system while simultaneously deflecting blaster bolts from twin double cannons.

A better question is why didn't they reach with the Force and screw w/ their internal systems like Skywalker did in Dark Empire and like Arca did in the Sith War.

Perhaps they have to be familiar with the internal mechanism to do that, they need to know what to break so they can find and concentrate on it. Luke had encountered AT-AT's and likely SD-9's before along with possibly having briefings on them during his time as a Rebel officer. The Jedi on TPM and AOTC on the other hand would have had minimal to no experience with the relatively secret driod armies and their equipment.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Perhaps they have to be familiar with the internal mechanism to do that, they need to know what to break so they can find and concentrate on it. Luke had encountered AT-AT's and likely SD-9's before along with possibly having briefings on them during his time as a Rebel officer. The Jedi on TPM and AOTC on the other hand would have had minimal to no experience with the relatively secret driod armies and their equipment.

That's pretty good actually.

Though he tore the AT-AT down with brute force, not by screwing with its joints IIRC.

He tossed a grenade inside.

pecker wrote: BDs are designed to fulfill human roles. A spider wouldn't have been able to pilot an AAT, for example.

Why should the AAT have humanoid pilots if they're built to be automated??? To me, the AAT should not have any pilot or cockpits at all - rather, they should be controlled by a computer system - it would also make the vehicle much smaller.

BTW, another concept for a battledroid is a small, uncrewed flying saucer robot that functions like a helicopter gunship and has a non-barelled rim used for projecting laser beams. It'd be so "War Of The Worlds"-ish.

There appears to be considerable evidence to point to the conclusion that the droid inability to think creatively, assessing tactical situations and altering movements to take advantage of circumstance, is actually a serious handicap in many things, including combat.


Being unable to think creatively is a serious handicap in combat. Take a look at the eastern front in WWII: the Russians were not able to think for themselves and nearly lost to the Germans, who were allowed tactical iniative. The droids and the clones have the same situation: the droids are told what to do by a computer. The clones-to a certain extent, anyway-are allowed to do what they think works. Since this is their first battle, it's obvious that we didn't see a lot of improvisation, but I bet we will by Ep. III. Note the stormies in ANH-none of their gear kits were exactly the same.

Simon H.Johansen wrote:

pecker wrote: BDs are designed to fulfill human roles. A spider wouldn't have been able to pilot an AAT, for example.

Why should the AAT have humanoid pilots if they're built to be automated??? To me, the AAT should not have any pilot or cockpits at all - rather, they should be controlled by a computer system - it would also make the vehicle much smaller.

The AAT, MTTs, etc... weren't designed with drodis in mind. They were simply commercially available vehiciels the TF bought and crewed with Droids.

pecker wrote:

Simon H.Johansen wrote:

pecker wrote: BDs are designed to fulfill human roles. A spider wouldn't have been able to pilot an AAT, for example.

Why should the AAT have humanoid pilots if they're built to be automated??? To me, the AAT should not have any pilot or cockpits at all - rather, they should be controlled by a computer system - it would also make the vehicle much smaller.

The AAT, MTTs, etc... weren't designed with drodis in mind. They were simply commercially available vehiciels the TF bought and crewed with Droids.

I don't know about that. The STAP must've been designed for droids. The engine exhaust is directly STRAIGHT AT the Droid's legs! If it was a human ... ack.

I, Sith wrote:There appears to be considerable evidence to point to the conclusion that the droid inability to think creatively, assessing tactical situations and altering movements to take advantage of circumstance, is actually a serious handicap in many things, including combat.

Thinking creatively? Assessing tactical situation? Altering movements?
Excuse me have you watched attack of the clones? Have you seen what R2D2 did? Pretty good improvisation for a droid (and an astromech one for that matter) supposedly being incapable of thinking creatively.Without mentioning IG 88 of course, do you really think that being a bounty hunter does not require improvisation?
This is a gross misconception.Already now we are experimenting with AI capable of learning and adapting,albeit only at elementary levels.There is no reason to believe that a civilization millenia more advanced than us could not fare much better.
The idea that they can build droids capable of doing what R2D2 did and not capable of assessing a tactical situation is laughable.And do not overestimate the amount of creative thinking that is usually required at the low levels of a regular army.Do you really think that boot camps are built to encourage the recruits to thinking creatively?
The reality is that droids would be far much better soldiers than humans.No sleep, no fatigue, no fear beyond what is deemed necessary ,they can have faster reflexes, and much,much more.If the the beer cans salesmen who rule the trade federation decide to waste this potential for saving a bit of money and for the droids revolts paranoia you cannot blame droid technology for that.Besides it is somewhat ironic that clones are genetically engineered and trained to make them more dociles,prone to execute orders without discussion etc:in other words to behave like droids.

Droids with human like intuition and capabilities can be built, it's just that people aren't very trusting of such things, possibly got something to do with the droid revolution a few millenia earlier.

Have you seen what R2D2 did?

R2 is an astromech droid. These are battle droids being used by a particularly paranoid bunch of folks we're talking about. The difference between R2 units being able to think creatively and for themselves is huge from a vast army of heavily armed droids being able to think for themselves.

The reality is that droids would be far much better soldiers than humans.No sleep, no fatigue, no fear beyond what is deemed necessary ,they can have faster reflexes, and much,much more.If the the beer cans salesmen who rule the trade federation decide to waste this potential for saving a bit of money and for the droids revolts paranoia you cannot blame droid technology for that.Besides it is somewhat ironic that clones are genetically engineered and trained to make them more dociles,prone to execute orders without discussion etc:in other words to behave like droids.


The thing is, I'm not blaming droid technology for this. I'm simply stating the droids aren't better soldiers than the clones.

Yes, the clones are more docile and able to take orders; however, Lama Su puts a heavy emphasis on their ability to think creatively. The droids, as we've seen, march into battle without thought for themselves-they take fire and don't bother taking cover, etc. The clones don't do this, and thus, they win.
No sleep, no fatigue, no fear beyond what is deemed necessary ,they can have faster reflexes...

Consdering the obvious amount of genetic tampering the clones come out with (accelerated aging, accelerated learning ability, etc) I think it might well be possible the clones may have their human emotions gone as well. They certinaly don't show fear in the OT or AOTC. As for sleep and fatigue, as we've seen the conetrooper concept of battle is fast, rapid,. and deadly. No lengthy battle requiring days to win. Indeed, the clones exterminated an army of 200,000 battle droids plus their support weaponry in perhaps a few hours. Most modern battles (from 1990 on, with the obvious exception of Mogadishu, somalia in '93) last no more than an hour or two. Fatigue may not be an issue with the clonetrooper army. And there's no reason you can't mess with genes to produce faster reflexes.

IG-88E wrote:He tossed a grenade inside.

Not in Dark Empire. He simply sent it crashing down with the Force.

"Yes, the clones are more docile and able to take orders; however, Lama Su puts a heavy emphasis on their ability to think creatively."

Advertising.
And again thinking creatively is not the most important thing in an open battle.Consider how human soldiers are trained in first place.

"The droids, as we've seen, march into battle without thought for themselves-they take fire and don't bother taking cover, etc."

Exactly what the clones do.Maybe you should watch the film again.

"Consdering the obvious amount of genetic tampering the clones come out with (accelerated aging, accelerated learning ability, etc) I think it might well be possible the clones may have their human emotions gone as well. They certinaly don't show fear in the OT or AOTC. As for sleep and fatigue, as we've seen the conetrooper concept of battle is fast, rapid,. and deadly. No lengthy battle requiring days to win. Indeed, the clones exterminated an army of 200,000 battle droids plus their support weaponry in perhaps a few hours. Most modern battles (from 1990 on, with the obvious exception of Mogadishu, somalia in '93) last no more than an hour or two. Fatigue may not be an issue with the clonetrooper army. And there's no reason you can't mess with genes to produce faster reflexes"

Maybe because the clones were not outnumbered and had the control of the air,better support etc.Even if they manage to make clones with the same combat value of droids they still take much more time (and money) in order to be built.

Admiral Piett wrote: Maybe because the clones were not outnumbered and had the control of the air,better support etc.Even if they manage to make clones with the same combat value of droids they still take much more time (and money) in order to be built.

We have no evidence that clones are more expensive to create, do we? For all we know it could be cheaper- not to mention actually LESS resource intensive- look at all the material in the Geonosian droid foundries.

Vympel wrote: We have no evidence that clones are more expensive to create, do we? For all we know it could be cheaper- not to mention actually LESS resource intensive- look at all the material in the Geonosian droid foundries.

Less resources intensive?Are you joking?
You have to clone people,using massive and expensive biological machinery, feed and train them for ten years before they are ready using the related support infrastructures.And then equipping them with armor etc (which the droids have alredy built in).The Geonosians foundries may look like massive but this does not mean that they are more expensive to build and to run that the equally massive Kamino cloning facilities.Do you really think that a foundry is much more expensive to run than a pharmaceutic industry?.Without mentioning that you have to feed people even when they do not fight,while droids can be put on racks until they are needed again.

You're forgetting maintenance of these droids. You can't just leave a combat vehicle unused for ages and expect it to be in perfect order when you get back.

Vympel wrote:You're forgetting maintenance of these droids. You can't just leave a combat vehicle unused for ages and expect it to be in perfect order when you get back.

And you are forgetting that clones may need medical treatments.

Admiral Piett wrote:

Vympel wrote:You're forgetting maintenance of these droids. You can't just leave a combat vehicle unused for ages and expect it to be in perfect order when you get back.

And you are forgetting that clones may need medical treatments.

Which is more expensive though? Clones that have been genetically engineered and who need to be fed- or droids that require constant maintenance and an endless stream of spare parts to keep them in working order?

Vympel wrote:You're forgetting maintenance of these droids. You can't just leave a combat vehicle unused for ages and expect it to be in perfect order when you get back.

SW stuff is pretty hardy, the Katana fleet was in pretty good shape when they found it, or what was left of it.
Sure, most of it's expierables where gone, like turbolaser capacitors and such, but they functioned well enough for a volley even after several decades of drifting.
Still, it was a relatively minor job to bring them back up to spec.

Yeah, but that's big ships in space with relatively few moving parts, not small man-sized droids that are basically ALL moving parts. Maintenance of military equipment is a fact of life- if we're gonna call cloning expensive based on modern experience I don't see why droids should be seen as super cheap.

Vympel wrote:You're forgetting maintenance of these droids. You can't just leave a combat vehicle unused for ages and expect it to be in perfect order when you get back.

The life expectancy for the droids is probably not high enough to warrant too much maintenance.
We see a line of droids being produced in the film (3po's batch) that is sent into battle a few hours or so later, and most, if not all are destroyed by those wonderful wonderful LAATs (finnaly developed an appreciation for thoe suckers).

The problem is the classic Quanity over Quality

Watching the the Driods fighting the Clones reminded me of the Face-up between Veteran American Soliders in Korea VS the Untrained Chineese Conscipts, They are not increably bright, Not exaclt well armed but enough so that they could kill an American or two and when you outnumber the enemy twenty to one thats normaly enough