Klingons with X-Wings

[Darth Fanboy]

Alyeska has claimed 90% accuracy not 100% accuracy, so you still strawmanned me. As well, I list a couple of quotes above. Trekmiss, or picking the worst cases of Federation ship accuracy, does not automatically mean we disregard Alyeska's analysis of the whole of Trek.

No, but that 90% figure wasn't against 12.5m fighters, fighters which you have already admitted exhibit a level of maneuverability not seen in ST. Sure the accuracy will be higher than anyone else Trek and more than likely will do well but it won't be as high as 90%.

Now combine that with your quote of Vympel that refers to there being enough ST ships to pick off the fighters. You know theres a reason he said that part. Its because if the fighters get a numerical advantage then no one ST ships is going to have an easy go of it.

[Darth Fanboy]

Caffeiene induced kicker

First things first, more thanks to Ghost Rider.

In fact, brian should not use the whole folly of appealing to Alyska as in an appela to authority to go "Trek can hit small ships"

Make the claim, provide the proof.

We've been pushing the accuracy thing a lot.

Brian's evidence - "Alyeska said this..."
My evidence - "Its very hard to hit something that is small and fast."

Brian has said that Alyeska and Wong's debate solved nothing. Should that not mean any claims based on these other claims are somewhat baseless?

The claim i'm making in the above statement isn't necessairly my evidence, its a fact. Smaller + Faster = Harder to hit. Even if a GCS can hit 200m ships with 90% aaccuracy that does not mean a 12.5m ship is going to get hit at the same rate at all.

Neither of us have yet brought up the rate of fire either, and IIRC the GCS rate of Fire isn't exactly rapid.

Suppose Q gives the Klingons the technology to build and maintain X-Wings (- proton torps) at the same cost of a Bird of Prey. Is the alpha quadrant fucked if the Klingons change their tactics to fighter swarms or will they have too little to make a significant difference?

Klingons are given the tech to build Xwings (according to above)

This doesn't mean they will take as long to build necessarily. It would be expensive but they could build a number of these in a small amount of time. I have never heard of what the possible production rate is for X-Wings, but if they aregiven the technology to build and maintain them it can't be too awful right?

If the Klingons are able to produce X-Wings substantially faster than the BoP, it should be obvious even to Brian which to go with. Also Lets keep in mind Waut has said that they aren't replacing the existing BoPs. (which I dont feel I have done properly, my bad Waut) Of course it begs the question of can the Klingons build X-Wings that fast? Would it be unreasonable to say the Klingons could build a squadron per week if they are willing to assume the cost? ( i'm sure the wealthier houses would be willing to part with funds if it gave them some)


ANd if anyone else here thinks im wrong for assuming that the Klingons would use the inherent advantages of Hyperdrive please tell me. Its not in the Klingon's character according to Brian. Military Advantages aren't their style apparently.

[wautd]

Fuck if we go along with what you are saying then why would the klingons even bother arming their ships? Why not glue giant bat'leths to the outside and have them try and duel enemy ships!

Lmao. Dont give B&B any ideas you fool

[brianeyci]

It'd be foolish to think that the Klingon military existed without any sort of intelligence gathering agency.

Klingons don't use combined arms in ground combat, Klingons use melee in ground combat. Klingons will obviously know where major Fed shipyards and colonies are, but beyond that unless you show me more...

Archaelogical outposts ALONG THE BORDER OF AN ENEMY POWER. Show me a Federation colony that is armed not within spitting distance of the Romulans and maybe i'll buy this.

Betazed was mentioned to have defenses, although outdated. Vulcan has defenses. And when was that archaeological outpost which Baran visited near the Romulan border? I can bring out quotes if you want, I think it was in the heart of the Federation.

You asked for evidence when none was required. I brought up the possibility of Klingon pilots requiring training at first because they were
being handed alien starfighters and completely alien technology. I still find it odd though that you at first were on my case about "stupid klingons" and then later in the debate you try and constrain their abilities using what you describe as their character.

If my style/tone was wrong, then fine. But I don't see what is wrong about asking for evidence.

And you're wasting my time if you are firm in the belief that the Klingons would not even attempt to devise such a tactic. I say to you Brian, "Tear down this wall of ignorance!"

Look man I am not saying that "Klingons stooooopid", I am saying that Klingons would not use hyperspace in the way you say when Klingons have not used cloak in this way.

Fuck if we go along with what you are saying then why would the klingons even bother arming their ships? Why not glue giant bat'leths to the outside and have them try and duel enemy ships!

Because cloak is hit-and-run, and hyperspace is hit-and-run. It is not stupidity, but in-character behaviour for Klingons to have problems considering this.

-You argue a BoP is more valuable to the Klingons than the X-Wing Starfighter

-You say this is because BoPs can deal and take greater damage

-I say the X-wings have a greater chance of avoiding damage than the BoP, which is screwed against a fed ship of GCS-level strength on its own anyway.

-We don't need it to be clear wether or not the GCS can hit EVERY time (we know it can't hit EVERY time and it would be unfair to say the X-wings could dodge every time) but so long as the X-Wings have increased maneuverability.

All of which you have not brought any numbers to the table at all. If the maneuverability of an X-Wing is supposed to be common knowledge or something, I apologize, but all I read is the main site and archives.

Look at this.

BOP (smaller than K'Vort)
Firepower : 100 KT torpedoes, slightly less powerful wing disruptors
Shielding : 500 KT, if we take 5 torpedoes to take out a BOP
Crew Compliment : 12
Special Tech : Cloak

X-Wing
Firepower : 4 KT / second
Shielding : single-digit kiloton, based on 4 KT figure being consistent with TIE firepower
Crew Compliment : 1
Special Tech : Hyperspace

Now X-Wing has Hyperspace, which is an advantage over cloak because of speed, but look at the rest. Maneuverability and accuracy aside. See why I'm hesitant to give Klingons X-Wings?

Read the part I highlighted in bold. I never said the phasers weren't dangerous, but just because phasers are dangerous doesn't mean the X-wing would be a waste of time or resources.

The reason why I brought that up was not to say that phasers are not dangerous, but to show that "heavy but acceptable losses" for Imperials would mean death for the Klingons who cannot work with hundreds of thousands of fighters, and to show that Fed ships can hit X-Wings.

Read the part in bold.

I am just showing that others consider Fed phasers accurate enough to hit X-Wings (unless X-Wings are much more maneuverable than TIE's)

I noticed this after I posted, but I already point out the effectiveness of Hyperdrive and your flawed arguments about the Klingons failure to use cloak because it doesn't fit their character.

The argument is not flawed. They have not taken advantage of cloak for hundreds of years. What makes you think they will take advantage of hyperspace, which is exactly the hit-and-run tactic that cloak is but with incredible speed?

AGAIN I TELL YOU: Hyperdrive is fast enough to cross the galaxy in days (many canon examples, including the ability to go from Naboo to Tatooine to Geonosis with great speed in AOTC), Warp couldnt do it in 100 years (see the entire series of Voyager).

Federation fleet can reach Q'nos in a few days as evidenced by Klingon Chancellor and Federation President travelling to Khitomer.

This on its own proves Hyperdrive is WAY faster. Which means that if the entire Federation fleet, enroute to Q'o'nos is travelling through Klingon territory its going to get picked up. Its going to take days.

I have never disputed that hyperdrive was slow. I have disputed the Klingons using X-Wings this way.

the X Wings can then work with a lot less resistance on key targets back home. Your Uber-wank fleet against Q'o'nos is impractical. The X-wings would be fast enough to set out, destroy a target, and be back well before the Feds got there. Hyperdrive means the X-wings can be anywhere in the AQ at almost any time. So the X-wings can be brought to bear whenever the Klingons wanted.

Very good, but meanwhile the Feds go to Q'nos and force a decisive battle.

Seeing as how you already conceded the point about the devastating impacts of surprise attacks and the impact against the Fed Command structure I don't think I should even bother.

Seeing as how you don't want to concede the cloak point, I don't know if I should bother. Tell me, why would someone not take advantage of cloak for hundreds of years? Perhaps it has something to do with that thing called Klingon honor? "If my people are cloaked, they intend to strike". Perhaps cloak is only used when Klingons are outgunned, or by dishonorable Klingons. Stabbing someone in the back is definitely dishonorable, and is a good explaination why Klingons don't use cloak. Hyperspace would be viewed this way as well.

Theres no number for: "speed advantage." Which you don't seem to get. How many outposts can the Klingons hit depends on the number of X-wings they have and the number of Federation Outposts there are, both of which are unknown or unspecified quantities. What kind of quantification is there for "

Sure there are. You could have taken the number of Federation homeworlds (150), used the smallest distance from Earth to its nearest star, used the speed for hyperspace, and calculated how long it would take, and see how it would stack up against the Fed fleet going to Q'nos. For good measure, use the 30 times shielding of a BOP.

Who the fuck are you the Klingon Sun-Tzu? Cloak is just one advantage, perhaps they disagree with you that it is enough of an advantage. Or perhaps they have other reasons for not invading, even Klingons don't invade just for the hell of it? Your fucking cloak claim is ridiculous, you're giving the Klingons Borg-level ineptitude at devising tactics and that's saying something.

Hyperspace is exactly hit-and-run of cloak, only really fast.

I'll humor you though, here's DF's oiffical list of Klingon reasons not to use a huge ass cloaked fleet to invade the Federation.

-PEACE TREATY WITH THE FEDERATION. You're wondeirng why they don't invade their most pwerful peaceful neighbor and sometimes military ally? I bet you wonder why the US doesn't invade England either.

When Klingons declared war against the Federation in DS9, they did not decimate the Federation with their cloak.

-Resource Requirements. BoPs and other ST ships for that matter are limited by the speed of warp travel. The BoPs need fuel and supplies for the LONG journey (long even at maximum warp). SW Hyperspace Travel means anywhere anytime from your home base. If the Klingons realize this, they will do it.

Unsupported assumption, and BOP have travelled from deep in Cardassian territory cloaked back to DS9. You don't seem to understand that limited warp travel speed doesn't excuse the Klingons from using cloak in the way I and others have suggested.

-Balance of Power. If the Klingons overstretched themselves against the Feds, the Romulans or someone else may come at them from another front, either through a treaty with the Feds or for the purpose of butchering Klingons. With X-wings they can hit a target and get their guys back in case something develops on another front.

Good point. But that depends on whether Klingons even use cloak in the way you suggested.

-Cloak isn't that much of an advantage, like you said in your Redemption II quote. The Feds already have a way of detecting cloak. Eventually the cloak advantage would be negated or limited. Starfleet cannot adapt to the huge speed advantage of Hyperdrive without some major revolutions in technology. Cloaks have an existing countermeasure, hyperspace travel many orders of magnitude greater than an opponent's doesn't

The point of bringing up that quote is to show that Federation is incredibly inept in dealing with cloak, and Klingons could have taken advantage of that. Cloak does not have a countermeasure other than when a fleet of ships are together, and did not have a countermeasure for hundreds of years.

Alyeska has claimed 90% accuracy not 100% accuracy, so you still strawmanned me. As well, I list a couple of quotes above. Trekmiss, or picking the worst cases of Federation ship accuracy, does not automatically mean we disregard Alyeska's analysis of the whole of Trek.

You haven't responded to the above point.

Are you this dense? I brought up this fact because your great solution was a huge Fed Fleet attacking Q'o'nos. You can use the GCS as your benchmark all you want but if you think that all of your ships are going to be as effective in a huge fleet engagement as the GCS you are wrong.

And if you think all your ships are going to be X-Wing, you are wrong as well.

My points on GCS is just about shield strength. Other Federation vessels can take 10 photon torpedo hits. Sovereign, War Galaxy, Defiant come to mind instantly, as well as many of the smaller and older Fed vessels like Ambassdor, Ent-C, etc.

And you didn't respond to the above point either.

but the Feds have to use a max of Warp 9 to get to Q'o'nos. It will take days, the X wings could travel across the entire AQ with hyperdrive, hit their target, and be back well ahead of the Feds. Again you understimate the speed advantage.

And you have not proven that the Klingons would use this tactic when for hundreds of years they have not used cloak.

Sure, but until you suggest otherwise (as you said before you're not suggesting anything) I will continue to use Defiant. And you underestimate the puny Defiant. It has more armor, is far better constructed, and overpowered for its size. Defiant can survive torpedo hits, and that's 100 KT x however many we've seen Defiant hit by.

Or the above point.

Restating what has been said:

You are an IDIOT to think that the Klingons not taking a huge easy to figure out military advantage is out of their character. There is nothing in their character about them not utilizing a speed advantage. Thats the crux of your argument, a misconception. Gee I bet you got a big trophy when you were on the debate team too eh?

Cloak is a huge military advantage. I have proposed an explaination for Klingons not using cloak more often -- Klingon honor. Stabbing someone in the back is dishonorable. Winning is important to the Klingons, but hyperspace allows the Klingons to strike anywhere, anytime, even more deadly than cloak, and Klingon honor explains why the Klingons haven't taken advantage of cloak for so long.

You mgiht as well give the Klingons a Death Star, and claim that they wouldn't use the Superlaser because it isn't in their character to blow up planets. ITS FUCKING OBVIOUS MAN! You who claimed to see so many 'obvious' things earlier! Don't get it.

-In war, it is good to be faster than the enemy.

Its not obvious that the Klingons would violate their character.

Its also good to have more endurance than your enemy.

Which part of the above statemtn do you think the Klingons have trouble understanding?

Of course the Klingons will use speed, but perhaps not in the way you suggest. I have provided an explaination for that.

You talk about the endurance between the BoP and X-Wing being the advantage of the BoP. Endurance doesnt mean jack shit if you can't get results. And Again, we're talking about "But the Klingons have never used their cloak like this!" See earlier points.

Endurance is a hard number, and so is firepower, which are relevant points to consider.

*sarcasm* "But the Federation won't take the fight to the Klingons, its out of character."

They took the fight to the Dominion. Federation has changed since their maulings by the Borg, Dominion, Klingons, and all the other baddies. Also Starfleet has expanded by an order of magnitude, from where 40 ships was a significant loss, to producing thousands of ships a year (and no I didn't make that up either).

Your idea of a huge 5,000 strong fed fleet invading Klingon space is so ludicrous you can't possibly be joking. Doesn't matter about your shield calcs either, because the X-wings are going to hit targets of opportunity. I should have said this earlier, but you remember "BEst of Both worlds" right? and all of that strong Federation defense in the Sol system right? Oh wait, no there were no ships and those little thingys that hit the Cube at Mars. Nothing important there other than Earth right? Which you already conceded. Well Utopia Planitia shipyards, but those can't be THAT important now can they? Doesn't matter how strong the shields are if theres nothing to defend it.

You are wrong. The Angel One episode shows that the Klingon D-7's had to stay out of range of the colony's defenses, or perhaps the colony didn't have any. Since Federation archaeological outposts have two phaser arrays and possibly photon torpedoes, Fed colonies would have at least this depending on their size. 48 minutes to fire at 7 D-7's means they're shredded. So the D-7's had to be bombarding the colony from a long distance with torpedoes.

Now go to the range of an X-Wing. As they close in to attack, they will be hit by the colony's defenses. Meanwhile, they will have to deal with shields 30-100 times stronger than a Galaxy. Attrition will be high, losses will be heavy, and the Klingons cannot afford to lose thousands of TIE's like the Empire if they cost as much as BOP.

Borg did not attack Mars, or UPS, or any other planet. They went straight for Earth, which I have already shown is the exception not the rule.

I've already explained to you how the advantage of Hyperdrive would devaste the Federation, you've conceded several key points, about the only thing I can give to you is that given enough time you could bore me to death and claim victory based on that. But I digress...

"Key" points? You claim that me saying that the Federation would go on the offensive to Q'nos and take the fight to Klingon territory where they would be forced to show their wank-wings is some sort of concession. You claim that conceding that Poe's Trekmiss, which is obviously based on the worst misses in ship combat exists, is some sort of concession when it was an honest mistake? You claim that conceding that a lot of Federation Admirals would be killed is some sort of concession? None of those concessions hurt the crux of my argument.

Third Concession Accepted (because I know the sound of defeat pisses you off)

I'm sure you think it does, but it doesn't. I'm going to eat sushi, see you later.

If you want to bring up the accuracy argument, fine. See this thread. Wars sensors are glorified cameras, and even that can be jammed. This is elegant and correct solution much better than Trek, but this shows that someone relying on hand-eye co-ordination can hit a moving TIE. Visual combat is king in Wars. Now unless you want to suggest that X-Wings are what contain the incredible ECM suites and show that they can jam Fed sensors so that cannot shoot, by their very nature computer controlled phaser arrays should be able to hit X-Wings if hand-eye co-ordination of Harrison Ford can, at least as well as he did. And where the hell does this "incredible maneuverbility" argument come from? The TIE's attacking Han Solo's freighter were moving fast, but straight. In other words, predictable. Klingon X-Wings won't be able to know where to maneuver anyway, because phasers are not turret-mounted and you won't know where the phaser will come out of and strike next. Against torpedoes, they can dodge, but phasers?

Brian

[brianeyci]

Now, for the "move like never seen before"...

Goto here. But hurry, startrek.com doesn't let you view the episode previews forever, only until the next episode airs. Don't worry if you don't like Enterprise, the clip only lasts a minute. You need IE though.

If someone can tell me how to save the movie file, I would appreciate it.

If you don't want to look at the video, take a look at these screencaps. The Maurader is moving so fast that the stars are blurred.





There you get a picture of a Romulan Maurader, dodging phaser and photon fire from Enterprise.

Couldn't get the exact screenshot that shows the Maurader dodging photon fire, but others who have watched the episode can vouch for me if you think I am lying. Most recently it was discussed in PST. We came to no satisfactory conclusion why the Maurader would move like this, and ships hundreds of years more advanced would not move like this.

The battle was fought sublight. In fact, the Enterprise was almost entirely stationary as the Maurader made its attack runs.

Photons move at around 600 m/s according to Brandon Bray. These are older photons, so may go much slower, but I do not think so, they go as fast as any photons from eyeballing.

I'm guessing this episode, they rig a system up with T'Pol and manage to nail the sucker.

Now. Fast-forward to the 23rd Century. Two hundred years later. Why would they need a stupid system where you rig up someone's brain to move like that with two hundred years in computer advancement? Why aren't there more ships that move like that being fielded against the Federation? The only answer that preserves continuity is that the Federation has devised countermeasures against the "small maneuverable ship" idea. The Romulans wholesale changed their tactics to hugeassed warbirds rather than use this maneuverability. Strike craft in space is stupid, if they cannot take advantage of their maneuverability.

Is this consistent with the rest of Trek? Other races, like Cardassians and Klingons, may not have this phaser accuracy because they did not go through this moment in history where they had to do intense research into phaser accuracy to deal with the Romulan threat. This hypothesis is consistent with the evidence, and shows us why nobody in the 23rd Century fields highly maneuverable strike craft against the Feds. Feds rediscovered the advantage of maneuverbility once they saw how good the Maquis were doing against Cardassians, but nobody else fielded strike craft like Peregrines, probably because they realized that Federation phaser accuracy didn't allow for them to take advantage of the same tactic. Klingons and Romulans probably realized it was stupid to start building strike craft, because hey after the Dominion war your enemies are going to be Federation. Peregrines are 15 meters in length, no other enemy attack craft come close to this small size.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Sorry, forgot the credit. Enterprise screencaps came from here, hosted on my own webspace.

And, obviously, video comes from startrek.com

Brian

[The Silence and I]

Interesting idea. That was very fast turns by the way, more so than I thought I would see, and does require explanation IMO.

Such maneuverability fielded against the Klingons/Cardassians/Romulans would cause a cluster bomb of problems for them. This raises the question why the Federation never fielded these devices against its enemies, or why the Romulans never did the same against the Klingons/vice versa. The easy answer is the ability to remote control such devices is very difficult later in trek, but if Enterprise can cobble a counter device together within one episode...this seems less plausible to me.

So if the capability is there (and the Romulans would love this, the Klingons may object to the remote control aspect though) why not use it? I find it interesting that you imply maybe they (the Romulans most likely) did, against the Federation, and it ultimately was countered by developments in phaser accuracy.

After being thwarted early on by the Federation's accuracy the Romulans opt to build larger ships, and by the time hostilities with the Klingons erupt between the two it would have made little sense to operate two paradimes of fleet structure, or at least that was their descision. Hence we see only the Federation having the accuracy needed to counter an old threat, now extinct precisely because the Federation is the big kid on the block.

The unresolved question is why the Federation never made use of this against, say the Romulans. They are the only ones with genuine fighter craft in the Dominion War true, but if those fighters caused problems, the drone style attack would have been something...else. Perhaps a wish to hold onto their advantage in accuracy? The Federation, not being imperialistic, must have realized it's enemies would be around for a long time and any advantage needs to be long lived if possible. Fielding radically maneuverable craft would have had the short term effectiveness needed to overpower and invade, but over time would have nullified by research into weapons technology on the other side.

Mostly musing here, interesting, very interesting.

[brianeyci]

but if Enterprise can cobble a counter device together within one episode...this seems less plausible to me.

Since the next episode hasn't aired yet, I don't know what kind of device that T'Pol will create/use. More likely, they go to the Andorian planet and use the Romulan's brain device straight back at them. I'll know by Friday.

Whatever counter-device they use, two hundred years of computer development would supercede their technobabble solution. Other AQ powers, which have had no exposure to this tactic, do not invest as much in phaser accuracy. Romulans go for huge warbirds later.

Of course, this doesn't rule out why maneuverability is not fielded by the Feds. Your hypothesis of Feds wanting to retain their advantage in phaser accuracy is a good one. We also know that Fed ships can easily handle accelerations orders upon orders of magnitude greater than this, so the "unmanned" explaination is not satisfactory.

The Maurader hypothesis explains why the Romulans and Klingons, who were close allies with the Federation, wouldn't want to field fighter craft like Peregrines despite their success against the Cardassians and Dominion. They must have realized that creating such large numbers of fighter craft would be useful in crushing the Dominion, but afterwards their traditional enemies the Federation has the advantage in terms of phaser accuracy so it is suicidal to field Klingon-Peregrines or Romulan-Peregrines.

Brian

[NRS Guardian]

Bryan I think you're forgetting a few points first of all one of the main reasons Klingons don't use BoPs to conduct very many raids is because of logistics. All the Feds have to do is sit a few ships at the border and take out the Klingon's supply ships, most of which aren't cloaked, once the Klingons are cut off from fuel, ammo, and other supplies their BoPs are stopped. X-wings with hyperspace don't have this problem because they can go to and from base on missions with the superior speed of hyperspace and don't have to depend on supply ships. Second like you say there must be a reason why races with cloaks don't use them to overwhelm the Feds and hit them where they're weak and while honor might be a valid explanation for the Klingons, what about the Romulans the sneakiest race in ST why don't they conduct hit and run attacks against the Feds using cloak. I submit its because the Fed's border defences are capable of defending against cloaked raids if only because they can keep the raiders from being supplied or from getting back across the border which isn't a problem for X-wings. Third, we do see Klingons using BoPs in DS9 to take out shipyards, outposts, and shipyards in raids, and the Roms almost took out DS9 in a surprise cloak attack(the episode where O'Brien is stuck in a time loop). Fourth, the Feds uberfleet still needs logistical support and probably wouldn't even be able to get to Q'onos if the fleet train gets taken out by marauding X-wings. Fifth the main reason we don't see the Klingons swarming over the Feds when the truce wasn't in effect was because they were already engaged with the Cardassians. Sixth, most Fed ships are Mirandas, Excelsiors, Sabres, and such which we see get trashed in DS9. Also, you're underestimating the advantages of mobility and dispersion. If the enemy can't hit you or more importantly can't be where you strike then their superiority is moot case in point the France Blitzkrieg against France, the British and French were superior in numbers and capabilities to the Nazis in 1940, yet they beat the French and drove the English into the sea because of their greater mobility enabled them to hit them where they weren't deployed. Finally, the case of the chariot and cavalry in ancient warfare might provide an argument for use of X-wings if only in support of BoPs. Chariots were very powerful able to deliver shock, firepower, and mobility, and were even capale of acting as mobile infantry delivery vehicles rather like BoPs, however there were some disadvantages such as requiring relatively large crews and many horses, and requiring large numbers of support personnel to maintain, also they weren't very good over long distances or rough terrain. Cavalry on the otherhand was faster, more mobile, lighter, and less capable when it came to combat due to the lack of stirrups providing a secure fighting platform, they were also better over rough terrain, less resource intensive particularly with respect to people, required less logistical support, and were smaller targets, rather like X-wings. So Chariots were powerful, yet limited to flat terrain, and Cavalry was more flexible, but traded combat power for it. So as can be seen if ancient armies used both each for their own advantages then I think it should be possible for Klingons to do the same, especially since we're talking about sword weilding warriors in both cases.

[brianeyci]

Bryan I think you're forgetting a few points first of all one of the main reasons Klingons don't use BoPs to conduct very many raids is because of logistics.

Incorrect, because Klingon capital ships can cloak as well, just like Romulan Warbirds.

On the Negh'Var. Suddenly, an entire task force of
Klingon ships DECLOAKS behind the Negh'Var.

All the Feds have to do is sit a few ships at the border and take out the Klingon's supply ships, most of which aren't cloaked, once the Klingons are cut off from fuel, ammo, and other supplies their BoPs are stopped.

Incorrect, I've already shown that Fed sensors are insufficient to stop cloak, and Klingon capital ships can cloak.

X-wings with hyperspace don't have this problem because they can go to and from base on missions with the superior speed of hyperspace and don't have to depend on supply ships.

Superior speed does not excuse the Klingons from using cloak to decimate the Federation. Klingon honor is a good explaination why the Klingons don't use cloak in this way on a massive scale. Cloak is only used sparingly, when you are outgunned, and never to attack someone who has equal or less firepower than you. Consistent with how cloak is used in DS9, TNG and TOS movies.

Second like you say there must be a reason why races with cloaks don't use them to overwhelm the Feds and hit them where they're weak and while honor might be a valid explanation for the Klingons, what about the Romulans the sneakiest race in ST why don't they conduct hit and run attacks against the Feds using cloak.

Romulans did not develop Warbird until much later. They were defeated after the Romulan-Earth war, and probably thought the Federation was much stronger than they really were. After these hundreds of years of isolation and buildup, they finally show up, but by then the Klingons and Federation are close allies and they cannot attack the Federation without risking the Klingons coming down their throat.

I submit its because the Fed's border defences are capable of defending against cloaked raids if only because they can keep the raiders from being supplied or from getting back across the border which isn't a problem for X-wings.

Incorrect as proved on numerous examples. First one that comes to mind a Romulan warbird following the "Vulcan" ships of Sela. Another is the feet Picard had to deploy to counter the Romulan cloaking device. Federation fixed defences may be able to defend against "raids" like the 7 D-7's the Romulans sent to the Angel One colony, but forcing 500 Warbirds concentrated on one part of the defense net and then spreading out would have meant death for the Federation. The Romulan's fault they overestimated Fed strength.

Third, we do see Klingons using BoPs in DS9 to take out shipyards, outposts, and shipyards in raids, and the Roms almost took out DS9 in a surprise cloak attack(the episode where O'Brien is stuck in a time loop).

Romulans don't have stupid honor, so they do use them. And unless the Klingons used cloak to take out shipyards and outposts, that doesn't apply. I only remember cloak ever being used on covert operations or retreat, and never as a hit-and-run tactic. Translation -- the Klingons, even if they do use cloak, hang around long enough to let their enemies fight back rather than recloaking and running.

Fourth, the Feds uberfleet still needs logistical support and probably wouldn't even be able to get to Q'onos if the fleet train gets taken out by marauding X-wings.

Depends on how fast the fleet train is hit, and depends on how many consumables a Federation fleet has. All unsubstantiated generalizations you're making. We've never seen a Federation fleet train, and larger ships would carry enough consumables for a few weeks or months at least, enough to head to Q'nos and start kicking ass.

Fifth the main reason we don't see the Klingons swarming over the Feds when the truce wasn't in effect was because they were already engaged with the Cardassians. Sixth, most Fed ships are Mirandas, Excelsiors, Sabres, and such which we see get trashed in DS9.

Send 50 cloaked Vor'Chas to Earth and rid it of all life. How hard is that? They didn't do that. What the hell does what Fed ships getting trashed have to do? They are still durable enough to withstand several torpedo hits, which are 100 KT and meaning lets say 500 KT for the wussy Miranda, with 4 KT guns you better hope that maneuverability is on your side. Which with the above pictures I've shown aren't, since under my hypothesis Federation phasers can hit things like Romulan Maurader which is maneuverable enough to dodge 600 m/s torpedoes.

Also, you're underestimating the advantages of mobility and dispersion. If the enemy can't hit you or more importantly can't be where you strike then their superiority is moot case in point the France Blitzkrieg against France, the British and French were superior in numbers and capabilities to the Nazis in 1940, yet they beat the French and drove the English into the sea because of their greater mobility enabled them to hit them where they weren't deployed.

Except the Federation not losing most of its fleet strength to these initial assaults means the Federation will take the fight to the Klingons. British and French did not attack Nazi Germany and force the Nazis to reel back and defend their territory, they had their hands full with defense. Federation fleet would be intact, unless you propsoe that the Klingons focus their firepower on Federation fleet concentrations rather than supply lines like you suggest.

Finally, the case of the chariot and cavalry in ancient warfare might provide an argument for use of X-wings if only in support of BoPs. Chariots were very powerful able to deliver shock, firepower, and mobility, and were even capale of acting as mobile infantry delivery vehicles rather like BoPs, however there were some disadvantages such as requiring relatively large crews and many horses, and requiring large numbers of support personnel to maintain, also they weren't very good over long distances or rough terrain. Cavalry on the otherhand was faster, more mobile, lighter, and less capable when it came to combat due to the lack of stirrups providing a secure fighting platform, they were also better over rough terrain, less resource intensive particularly with respect to people, required less logistical support, and were smaller targets, rather like X-wings. So Chariots were powerful, yet limited to flat terrain, and Cavalry was more flexible, but traded combat power for it. So as can be seen if ancient armies used both each for their own advantages then I think it should be possible for Klingons to do the same, especially since we're talking about sword weilding warriors in both cases.

Irrelevant, as the analogy does not hold on so many points. BOP can work over long distances as shown by Picard taking a BOP straight to Romulus. In this OP, BOP costs just as much to maintain as an X-Wing so your points about cost are irrelevant. BOP are just as mobile as X-Wings, just far slower. X-Wings have their speed advantage, and that is it. They do not have a "terrain" advantage, or a cost advantage (in this op). Nor are X-Wings say, more capable of working in certain terrain than BOP, because BOP can also do atmospheric flight and combat.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Always remember to consider the weakest link in the chain, not the strongest link. This is an important lesson from real-life engineering which is often lost on sci-fi debaters, who tend to conceptualize sci-fi in a purely abstract theoretical sense in which they pick one particular phenomenon and concentrate on that phenomenon to the exclusion of all others (ie- focus on the non-physical shields and ignore physical constraints)

The one particular phenomenon is maneuverability and hyperspace. I have proposed from the beginning that we consider all variables -- crew compliment, shield strength, firepower, Klingon honor, and so on. But always the retort is maneuverability and hyperspace, as if the rest didn't matter.

Well, maneuverability is shot to the ground now with the Maurader hypothesis. So the only thing left is hyperspace. And there is no satisfactory explaination why the Klingons do not use cloak in the way I suggest other than Klingon honor (or at least nobody has proposed an explaination, logistics is a load of shit as we see BOP being able to go to Romulus and Klingon capital ships can cloak), there's no reason to suppose that Klingons will use hyperspace in this way.

The "weakest link" in the chain is that nobody can explain why the Klingons didn't use cloak to its devestating potential. I have proposed a superior theory, and other theories like logistics is shit. Are people seriously suggesting that a BOP or a Klingon fleet could not carry enough consumables to cloak all the way to Earth? We know a BOP can, from it staying cloaked as it traverses from the NZ to Romulus and stays there in orbit for a few days, about eight if I read the stardates correctly.

Brian

[harbringer]

Brian did you try right clicking the link to the file and download? do you have a multi threaded downloader this might also alow this and lastly you can try looking in the cache for the file.

There are reasons for and against klingons wanting and using x-wings. As for the honor argument there is one warrior in one small ship possibly taking on and killing a standard ST cap ship. I am pretty sure they will use them but not as widely as some here believe. For a start your limited in cargo capacity.

[NRS Guardian]

Bryan I think you're forgetting a few points first of all one of the main reasons Klingons don't use BoPs to conduct very many raids is because of logistics.

Incorrect, because Klingon capital ships can cloak as well, just like Romulan Warbirds.

On the Negh'Var. Suddenly, an entire task force of
Klingon ships DECLOAKS behind the Negh'Var.

What does any of this have to do with logistics. The reason capital ships don't usually go out on raids in RL is precisely because logistical support is required in greater quantities by larger ships and even more important in keeping then at peak performance

All the Feds have to do is sit a few ships at the border and take out the Klingon's supply ships, most of which aren't cloaked, once the Klingons are cut off from fuel, ammo, and other supplies their BoPs are stopped.

Incorrect, I've already shown that Fed sensors are insufficient to stop cloak, and Klingon capital ships can cloak.

Did I mention capital ships? No, I mentioned freighter and supply ships which according to DS9 can't cloak and require escort so it should be a piece of cake for the Feds to take out Klingon FREIGHTERS, dumbass.

X-wings with hyperspace don't have this problem because they can go to and from base on missions with the superior speed of hyperspace and don't have to depend on supply ships.

Superior speed does not excuse the Klingons from using cloak to decimate the Federation. Klingon honor is a good explaination why the Klingons don't use cloak in this way on a massive scale. Cloak is only used sparingly, when you are outgunned, and never to attack someone who has equal or less firepower than you. Consistent with how cloak is used in DS9, TNG and TOS movies.

First what does the X-wing not having to worry about being cut off from support because it can hyper from base directly to its target have to do with Klingon honor, and sparing use of cloak. Second Kligons use cloaks quite a bit, not sparingly, to ambush Cardassian freighters for instance and to take out a major Cardassian base(the episode where Kira teaches Dukat how to fight like a guerilla). They use it when escorting freighters that can't cloak, whats the point in that?

Second like you say there must be a reason why races with cloaks don't use them to overwhelm the Feds and hit them where they're weak and while honor might be a valid explanation for the Klingons, what about the Romulans the sneakiest race in ST why don't they conduct hit and run attacks against the Feds using cloak.

Romulans did not develop Warbird until much later. They were defeated after the Romulan-Earth war, and probably thought the Federation was much stronger than they really were. After these hundreds of years of isolation and buildup, they finally show up, but by then the Klingons and Federation are close allies and they cannot attack the Federation without risking the Klingons coming down their throat.

*sarcasm*
Really, the Klingons were allies of the Feds during TOS I did not know that?
The Romulans could have attacked the Feds with the tactics you suggest any time from TOS to STVI, yet they didn't maybe because the outposts could hold up the Romulans and give adequate warning to the Feds, maybe because the outposts would provide bases for the Feds to cut the Romulans off from supply and their line of retreat, maybe because they realized you don't leave enemy strong points at your back that can threaten your rear. Heck for a time the Klingons and Romulans were allies why didn't they send in a combined cloaked fleet and destroy the Feds?

I submit its because the Fed's border defences are capable of defending against cloaked raids if only because they can keep the raiders from being supplied or from getting back across the border which isn't a problem for X-wings.

Incorrect as proved on numerous examples. First one that comes to mind a Romulan warbird following the "Vulcan" ships of Sela. Another is the feet Picard had to deploy to counter the Romulan cloaking device. Federation fixed defences may be able to defend against "raids" like the 7 D-7's the Romulans sent to the Angel One colony, but forcing 500 Warbirds concentrated on one part of the defense net and then spreading out would have meant death for the Federation. The Romulan's fault they overestimated Fed strength.

That doesn't explain why the Romulans needed Troi to give them Fed codes to shut down the sensor net. Nor does it take into account the risk of being cut off from home after getting into Fed space, ala the Breen raid sure they got to Earth and hit SFHQ, yet not a one made it home, or the Romulans disastrous raid against the Dominion. Maybe the Romulans didn't feel like throwing a fleet away or committing suicide.

Third, we do see Klingons using BoPs in DS9 to take out shipyards, outposts, and shipyards in raids, and the Roms almost took out DS9 in a surprise cloak attack(the episode where O'Brien is stuck in a time loop).

Romulans don't have stupid honor, so they do use them. And unless the Klingons used cloak to take out shipyards and outposts, that doesn't apply. I only remember cloak ever being used on covert operations or retreat, and never as a hit-and-run tactic. Translation -- the Klingons, even if they do use cloak, hang around long enough to let their enemies fight back rather than recloaking and running.

I said the KLINGONS in DS9 take out Dominion and Cardassian outposts, shipyards, and convoys in raids. Not the Roms, I just listed the Roms attempt to take out DS9 (which would've succeeded if not for the stupid time loop) as further evidence of raiding tactics and capabilities demonstated in ST. Read the frickin' post.

Fourth, the Feds uberfleet still needs logistical support and probably wouldn't even be able to get to Q'onos if the fleet train gets taken out by marauding X-wings.

Depends on how fast the fleet train is hit, and depends on how many consumables a Federation fleet has. All unsubstantiated generalizations you're making. We've never seen a Federation fleet train, and larger ships would carry enough consumables for a few weeks or months at least, enough to head to Q'nos and start kicking ass.

That assumes the Klingons don't mount a defence in depth requiring the Feds to slowly fight their way through Klingon territory taking caualties the whole way, and being cut off from fuel and ammo badly needed after each battle. And that assumes the Klingons don't use the BoPs they have to whittle away at and slow down the fleet in quick raids using cloak. As you say when up against a superior foe, the Klingons are going to use cloak to get any advantage they can. And you're the only one saying the Klingons won't use both BoPs and X-wings. Also, it takes quite a while to get 5,000 ships spread across 8,000 light years to assemble in one place the Klingons sould probably use X-wings to hit isolated ships on their way to the rendevous point and they could probably hit support structures which would prevent fleet from being supplied before it even leaves for Q'onos.

Fifth the main reason we don't see the Klingons swarming over the Feds when the truce wasn't in effect was because they were already engaged with the Cardassians. Sixth, most Fed ships are Mirandas, Excelsiors, Sabres, and such which we see get trashed in DS9.

Send 50 cloaked Vor'Chas to Earth and rid it of all life. How hard is that? They didn't do that. What the hell does what Fed ships getting trashed have to do? They are still durable enough to withstand several torpedo hits, which are 100 KT and meaning lets say 500 KT for the wussy Miranda, with 4 KT guns you better hope that maneuverability is on your side. Which with the above pictures I've shown aren't, since under my hypothesis Federation phasers can hit things like Romulan Maurader which is maneuverable enough to dodge 600 m/s torpedoes.

Yet we never see Fed ships hitting anything as manueverable as the Marauder in any episode not even the episode its in is the Enterprise able to hit the Marauder when its manuevering. Also, the Marauder looks to be no less than 1/3 the length of the Ent not exactly small, compared to an X-wing.

Also, you're underestimating the advantages of mobility and dispersion. If the enemy can't hit you or more importantly can't be where you strike then their superiority is moot case in point the France Blitzkrieg against France, the British and French were superior in numbers and capabilities to the Nazis in 1940, yet they beat the French and drove the English into the sea because of their greater mobility enabled them to hit them where they weren't deployed.

Except the Federation not losing most of its fleet strength to these initial assaults means the Federation will take the fight to the Klingons. British and French did not attack Nazi Germany and force the Nazis to reel back and defend their territory, they had their hands full with defense. Federation fleet would be intact, unless you propsoe that the Klingons focus their firepower on Federation fleet concentrations rather than supply lines like you suggest.

Really, I didn't know that in an all out war between the Feds and the Klingons, with the Klingons having a mobility advantage, that the Feds wouldn't be in the same boat as the French in 1940. Most Fed ships are deployed on their own or with a few others, heck in Nemesis a Fed battlegroup only has 7 starships. Thus the Klingons could use the superior hyperdrive speed of the X-wing to strike at lone starships or small groups with enough X-wings to take them out quickly. And be able to do it repeatedly until the Feds start to assemble large groups, which will take a while with the slow speed of warp.

Finally, the case of the chariot and cavalry in ancient warfare might provide an argument for use of X-wings if only in support of BoPs. Chariots were very powerful able to deliver shock, firepower, and mobility, and were even capale of acting as mobile infantry delivery vehicles rather like BoPs, however there were some disadvantages such as requiring relatively large crews and many horses, and requiring large numbers of support personnel to maintain, also they weren't very good over long distances or rough terrain. Cavalry on the otherhand was faster, more mobile, lighter, and less capable when it came to combat due to the lack of stirrups providing a secure fighting platform, they were also better over rough terrain, less resource intensive particularly with respect to people, required less logistical support, and were smaller targets, rather like X-wings. So Chariots were powerful, yet limited to flat terrain, and Cavalry was more flexible, but traded combat power for it. So as can be seen if ancient armies used both each for their own advantages then I think it should be possible for Klingons to do the same, especially since we're talking about sword weilding warriors in both cases.

Irrelevant, as the analogy does not hold on so many points. BOP can work over long distances as shown by Picard taking a BOP straight to Romulus. In this OP, BOP costs just as much to maintain as an X-Wing so your points about cost are irrelevant. BOP are just as mobile as X-Wings, just far slower. X-Wings have their speed advantage, and that is it. They do not have a "terrain" advantage, or a cost advantage (in this op). Nor are X-Wings say, more capable of working in certain terrain than BOP, because BOP can also do atmospheric flight and combat.

Brian

You're missing the point. Maybe it's my fault, maybe I didn't state it well, or maybe you're being intentionally dense I don't know. However, BoPs like Chariots are more crew intensive than X-wings like Cavalry. And Cavalry like X-wings are able to go looong distances whereas BoPs like Chariots can't. For instance an X-wing can cross half the galaxy in DAYS, the BoP can cross half the AQ in DECADES. So compared to X-wings the BoPs ability to cross long distances is less. And BoPs aren't just as mobile if only due to their size I haven't seen a BoP fly through a canyon or a tunnel or less than 20m from a larger capital ship, and I haven't seen a BoP do anything close to the tight turns we see from X-wings in ANH and RotJ. Also, the OP doesn't say it costs the same to maintain X-wings it just says it costs the same to build X-wings. Also, X-wings if only because they can operate from a central base will have less logistical needs and when the OP says they don't have torps that further cuts down on logistics. And we don't see what a BoP requires in terms of support personnel, but even if we assume they can be maintained by their own crew that means for every BoP your tying up 12 people, yet if we go by the hangar scenes in SW about 40 starfighters require no more than 200 people providing support which comes out to 5 per fighter which means that X-wings only require half the support personnel of a BoP including the pilot freeing up Klingon manpower.

[LaCroix]

Send 50 cloaked Vor'Chas to Earth and rid it of all life. How hard is that? They didn't do that.

One thing that makes me wonder. THe feds do have theyr "sensor belt" on their borders with the "cloaked" enemies. So the entry of such fleet could be dedected. the course, to... so just drive through the "belt" in the direction of a known supply world to throw a bait for the fleet, stop and turn to earth... while a fleet is awaiting 50 marauding klingon cruisers near an important depot, the klingons decloak near earth, and send a few full volleys of all they can bring onto the federation capital (LA, isn't it?)

They can cloak again and fly home, and still will be back home fast enough to regroup with the rest of the klingon navy to await the federations answer...

If they just decloak for a few shots, they can bring the most important parts of the city down (no shields mentioned in canon surces) while the existing orbital defences will only be able to kill a handfull ships at most... (If they choose to send the first volley against those defences, losses will be even smaller.)

The Klingons don't seem to be THAT rutheless as pictured...

[Darth Fanboy]

Klingons don't use combined arms in ground combat, Klingons use melee in ground combat. Klingons will obviously know where major Fed shipyards and colonies are, but beyond that unless you show me more...

So you are arguing that the Klingons don't use any sort of intelligence gathering, or any sort of spies. Ludicrous. And btw, I don't see the Federation fielding much in the way of ground combat either, but they seem to have substantial intelligence gathering.

Betazed was mentioned to have defenses, although outdated. Vulcan has defenses. And when was that archaeological outpost which Baran visited near the Romulan border? I can bring out quotes if you want, I think it was in the heart of the Federation.

Vulcan's defenses were so great that the Romulans thought to conquer the entire planet with a handful of troops. As for Angel One, if it was close enough to come under enemy attack, given the limitations of warp drive it couldn't have been far from the border at all.

If my style/tone was wrong, then fine. But I don't see what is wrong about asking for evidence.

Ask me for evidence that Ice is less dense than water. I can tell you cce floats (thus showing that it is less dense) right off the top of my head without giving you specifics regarding the factors involved.

Look man I am not saying that "Klingons stooooopid", I am saying that Klingons would not use hyperspace in the way you say when Klingons have not used cloak in this way.

You have already made the claims that the Klingons use no sort of intelligence gathering agency, and that they would not utilize a massive speed advantage. I'm no military expert but when it comes to warfare there are two things every commander wants an advantage in, speed and power. Even a Klingon is going to realize a SPEED ADVANTAGE. Plus we've already talked about how the Feds have technobabble measures to counter cloak, but there is no technobabble solution to speed, short of building a comparably fast FTL drive that is.

Because cloak is hit-and-run, and hyperspace is hit-and-run. It is not stupidity, but in-character behaviour for Klingons to have problems considering this.

The "In-character behavior" again. Its not the Klingon's nature to take advantage of a potential military advantage. Can I mention the Klingons wanting to steal the genesis device because they saw an advantage in that? Can I mention Chang's cloaked BoP? Of course those weren't TNG era and up Klingons. I find hard to believe that you can post any of this nonsense and expect to be taken seriously. You know its out of character for the Feds to even want to fight a war but you'll still let them field a massive fleet to engage the Klingon homeworld.

All of which you have not brought any numbers to the table at all. If the maneuverability of an X-Wing is supposed to be common knowledge or something, I apologize, but all I read is the main site and archives.

I don't need a number for "Hyperdrive is orders of magnitude faster than warp drive." I gave you canon examples from both series that Hyperdrive is far superior. 1 Kt per second was given for the X-wing guns and while its not necessarily capital ship grade we've shown that they are a serious threat. Especially if the X-wings work in squadrons.

Look at this.

BOP (smaller than K'Vort)
Firepower : 100 KT torpedoes, slightly less powerful wing disruptors
Shielding : 500 KT, if we take 5 torpedoes to take out a BOP
Crew Compliment : 12
Special Tech : Cloak

X-Wing
Firepower : 4 KT / second
Shielding : single-digit kiloton, based on 4 KT figure being consistent with TIE firepower
Crew Compliment : 1
Special Tech : Hyperspace

Now X-Wing has Hyperspace, which is an advantage over cloak because of speed, but look at the rest. Maneuverability and accuracy aside. See why I'm hesitant to give Klingons X-Wings?

With your numbers you just gave the X-wings four times the firepower i've been giving them. if the X-wings are working in pairs thats going to be fucking awesome.

I understand why you would want to keep the bigger guns of the BoP but it is my assertion that this role can be filled by other capital ships easily enough, the X-wings you're now giving me are 4 times better. Assuming their guns are equal to that of a TIE Fighter.

The reason why I brought that up was not to say that phasers are not dangerous, but to show that "heavy but acceptable losses" for Imperials would mean death for the Klingons who cannot work with hundreds of thousands of fighters, and to show that Fed ships can hit X-Wings.

They can, but they have to do so quickly enough not to get fucked in the process. The Klingons don't have the same number of fighters as the Imperials would, ever. But they are given the technology to build and maintain these fighters which means they can put them intro production.

I am just showing that others consider Fed phasers accurate enough to hit X-Wings (unless X-Wings are much more maneuverable than TIE's)

Given enough ships to snipe the fighters!

The argument is not flawed. They have not taken advantage of cloak for hundreds of years. What makes you think they will take advantage of hyperspace, which is exactly the hit-and-run tactic that cloak is but with incredible speed?

Like i've said. A cloaked ship can sneak up onto its target, but then has to escape. A cloaked ship is not even guaranteed to go undetected given Fed methods of detecting cloaked ships. A hyperdrive capable fighter pops in behind enemy lines, blows a bunch of shit up, then uses hyperdrive, the whole process takes a matter of hours, instead of days. The Feds cannot chase a hyperdrive capable fighter, they can chase a cloaked ship.

Federation fleet can reach Q'nos in a few days as evidenced by Klingon Chancellor and Federation President travelling to Khitomer.

*tears hair out* I SAID IT WOULD TAKE THEM DAYS TO GET THERE YOU JACKOFF.

If it takes a warp capable ship days to get from Fed space to Q'o'nos. Then it takes a Hyperspace capable ship MUCH LESS TIME! WAY less time, a few days? Lets say a few is, Oh I dunno 3 seems like a few right? Its more than a couple. At a low end lets say an X wing can cross a galaxy in 10 days (very low end). Lets say Voyager crosses the length of the galaxy in say, 100 years. 100 years = 36500 days! (There I made numbers for you, happy?)

With that kind of speed advantage the Klingons can fuck around in Fed space unihibited for a while while this mighty way to big Fed fleet of yours is in transit. They've hit several key targets and are back in time for the inevitable encounter with said fleet. By this time the Klingons absolutely know the Feds are coming and will have their Fleet ready as well. The Fed fleet is then forced to fight on Klingon terms. REmember the Dominion War the AQ powers had to use the sort of ISland hopping strategy to reach Cardassia, they didn't just send every ship they fucking had there, on the same token the Dominion didn't just send everything it had to Earth, or Q'o'nos, or Romulus either.

I have never disputed that hyperdrive was slow. I have disputed the Klingons using X-Wings this way.

Well you disputed the fact that the X wings could hit targets while your uberwank Fed fleet was on its way to Q'o'nos and still be back in plenty of time for the battle.

Very good, but meanwhile the Feds go to Q'nos and force a decisive battle.

On Klingon terms, in Klingon space. You really don't think the fucking Klingons wouldn't notice something like that? And you think the Feds would leave themselves wide open to the ROmulans, or any other groups along their borders? What's their supply line like? Oh I forgot, they're going to warp straight in and continue uninhibited of course. Doesn't matter even if they did, because they are fucked when they arrive.

Seeing as how you don't want to concede the cloak point, I don't know if I should bother.

God you're a fucking retard.

Tell me, why would someone not take advantage of cloak for hundreds of years? Perhaps it has something to do with that thing called Klingon honor? "If my people are cloaked, they intend to strike". Perhaps cloak is only used when Klingons are outgunned, or by dishonorable Klingons. Stabbing someone in the back is definitely dishonorable, and is a good explaination why Klingons don't use cloak. Hyperspace would be viewed this way as well.

Jesus tap dancing christ. Is it really against "personal honor" to be faster than one's opponent? This is your argument?

Sure there are. You could have taken the number of Federation homeworlds (150), used the smallest distance from Earth to its nearest star, used the speed for hyperspace, and calculated how long it would take, and see how it would stack up against the Fed fleet going to Q'nos. For good measure, use the 30 times shielding of a BOP.

Well I showed you examples of how SW ships can hyperspace across the galaxy in days, while Trek ships take many years. Apparently that's not good enough for you.

I see we're talking about your impractical wank Fed Fleet again. I already pointed out that that is going to get you. Betcha got a good hard on going writing about it by this point eh?

Hyperspace is exactly hit-and-run of cloak, only really fast.

Except with cloak you aren't guaranteed to get across enemy lines and you arent guaranteed to escape. Hyperdrive is too fast for the feds to do anything except guard potential targets, and if that becomes the case then they'll spend the entire time on a defensive footing and allow the Klingons to go on the offensive.

When Klingons declared war against the Federation in DS9, they did not decimate the Federation with their cloak.

Already mentioned Fed countermeasures, and we know how long that "war" lasted also eh? And we know the Klingons were very much involved in Cardassian territory at the time eh? Im sure even you realize that a full scale invasion of not one but two large enemy territories stetches you out and leaves you vulnerable. How were the Klingons going to invade Fed space when already so committed eh?

Unsupported assumption, and BOP have travelled from deep in Cardassian territory cloaked back to DS9.

DS9 is right next to Cardassian territory.

You don't seem to understand that limited warp travel speed doesn't excuse the Klingons from using cloak in the way I and others have suggested.

Already mentioned fed countermeasures,

Good point. But that depends on whether Klingons even use cloak in the way you suggested.

You seem to be the expert on what Klingons do and don't do.

The point of bringing up that quote is to show that Federation is incredibly inept in dealing with cloak, and Klingons could have taken advantage of that. Cloak does not have a countermeasure other than when a fleet of ships are together, and did not have a countermeasure for hundreds of years.

Fleet of ships can be replaced by any sort of unmanned sensor net, as I recall the Feds use one near the Romulan border. even if the Klingon ships cross the border you can't shoot while cloaked, you uncloak you lose your advantage, cloak only helps with stealth but as you've mentioned previously Fed ships have a firepower edge on the BoP. They uncloak they had better win if they want to escape. (X-wings would just hyperspace out of there and head back to Q'o'nos and be there within a matter of hours, the danger of crossing through Fed space pretty much gone.)

You haven't responded to the above point.

Read the post at the top of page three jerkoff.

And if you think all your ships are going to be X-Wing, you are wrong as well.

*tears more hair out* I NEVER SAID THEY WOULD BE. HOw many times do I have to say that capital ship functions would be handled by Vor'Cha and similar class ships! Fucking hell man.

And you didn't respond to the above point either.

Cry me a river. You come up with so many fucking points where I have to repeat myself I lose track.

And you have not proven that the Klingons would use this tactic when for hundreds of years they have not used cloak.

(speaking slowly, as if to a small child)

Because...in war...you want...to be...faster...than...the...other guy. It's so basic it's not even a fucking tactic!



....At this point DF is so incredibly bored he no longer continues to read Brians postings, which must be filled with more absolute bullshit and wankery. DF apologizes and realizes that this is awful debate form. DF also realizes that any attempt to just walk away makes it appear as if he is trying to take an easy way out or a sort of 'too good to continue' approach. DF apologizes for that as well, but If Brian continues to argue that "Its not in Klingon character" to want to be faster than one's opponent then it really doesn't fucking matter if this debate continues.

DF also hopes that a cure for cranial rectal inversion is found so that Brianeyci will one day see the light. He can walk away thinking he's won all he likes whatever, I don't give a fuck.

[brianeyci]

So you are arguing that the Klingons don't use any sort of intelligence gathering, or any sort of spies. Ludicrous. And btw, I don't see the Federation fielding much in the way of ground combat either, but they seem to have substantial intelligence gathering.

Strawman. I am saying that unless you have evidence otherwise, Federation counter-intelligence will be sufficient to shield their classified fleet movements from the Klingons. The existence of Klingon intelligence does not mean they will know exactly where to hit Federation fleet concentrations.

Vulcan's defenses were so great that the Romulans thought to conquer the entire planet with a handful of troops. As for Angel One, if it was close enough to come under enemy attack, given the limitations of warp drive it couldn't have been far from the border at all.

You don't seem to get it do you?

Your justification for Angel One having shielding is the following,

"Angel One is more likely to be attacked because it is at the border with the Romulans."

However, the following is also true.

"Earth is the most likely to be attacked because in its past history it has been attacked by Xindi Test Weapon, V'Ger, Whale Probe, Borg Cube I, Borg Cube II, and the Breen Attack."

Which means that there must be something special about Earth, most likely an aversion to fortification.

You also do not address why a Federation Archaeological Outpost, with no strategic or tactical significance that we know of at all, is armed with two phasers and possibly photon torpedoes, and has theatre shielding.

I have met the burden of proof for showing that Earth, totally unfortified, is the exception, not the rule. Who cares how pathetic Vulcan ground defenses are, or how outdated Betazed defenses are? They have defenses, and that's more than you can say about Earth, which is all I need to prove.

Ask me for evidence that Ice is less dense than water. I can tell you cce floats (thus showing that it is less dense) right off the top of my head without giving you specifics regarding the factors involved.

False analogy, as you cannot tell me that Klingons are bad pilots without evidence.

You have already made the claims that the Klingons use no sort of intelligence gathering agency,

Strawman, as I have not claimed they would not have any intelligence agency, only that unless you have evidence otherwise, Federation counter-intelligence would be enough to keep their fleet movements classified.

and that they would not utilize a massive speed advantage.

Correct, because if they do not use cloak to defeat the Federation, they will also not use hyperspace in the way you suggest, to hit-and-run.

I'm no military expert but when it comes to warfare there are two things every commander wants an advantage in, speed and power. Even a Klingon is going to realize a SPEED ADVANTAGE. Plus we've already talked about how the Feds have technobabble measures to counter cloak, but there is no technobabble solution to speed, short of building a comparably fast FTL drive that is.

You don't get it do you? It is not just my opinion, but the opinion of many shared (see the link I provided) that not using cloak to its full potential is a supreme strategic blunder, not only for the Romulans but for the Klingons. It requires an explaination, and the Klingon honor explaination is the only good one that fits all the evidence without supposing that the Klingons are not stupid. Repeat with me, Federation sensors cannot defeat cloak. The one-stop technobabble solutions do not change this. Romulan sensors are stated to be as advanced as the Federation by Geordi, and Picard was able to take a cloaked BOP into orbit of Romulus.

The "In-character behavior" again. Its not the Klingon's nature to take advantage of a potential military advantage.

Sure you can. But create a counter-theory to the honor theory then that explains why when hostilities broke out, Klingons did not send fifty Vor'Chas to destroy Earth, or Vulcan, or any number of targets for that matter.

Can I mention the Klingons wanting to steal the genesis device because they saw an advantage in that? Can I mention Chang's cloaked BoP? Of course those weren't TNG era and up Klingons.

Genesis device was considered a dishonorable advantage by the Klingons. Chang betrayed his Empire and was thus dishonorable.

I find hard to believe that you can post any of this nonsense and expect to be taken seriously.

I find it hard to believe that you ignore Klingon honor, which for now is the only explaination that does not violate parsimony explains why the Klingons do not use cloak as I have suggested.

You know its out of character for the Feds to even want to fight a war but you'll still let them field a massive fleet to engage the Klingon homeworld.

See Dominion War.

I don't need a number for "Hyperdrive is orders of magnitude faster than warp drive."

Sure you do, if you want me to take that statement seriously. The question is, whether or not Klingons can strike according to your plan and decimate the Federation in the timeframe allotted without being forced to send the majority of their forces back into their own territory to defend against a Federation incursion, which is what I propose the Federation would do. I'm not going to do your homework for you.

I gave you canon examples from both series that Hyperdrive is far superior. 1 Kt per second was given for the X-wing guns and while its not necessarily capital ship grade we've shown that they are a serious threat. Especially if the X-wings work in squadrons.

So what, you did not quantify it at all. I have attempted to quantify all such statements. Sure, the speed of hyperspace can be claimed as common knowledge, but the speed of hyperspace in relation with the Federation attacking Klingon space and whether the Klingons can decimate the Federation before the Federation takes the fight to them and the Klingons are compelled to turn forces back to defend their territory as honor dictates?

With your numbers you just gave the X-wings four times the firepower i've been giving them. if the X-wings are working in pairs thats going to be fucking awesome.

Four times the firepower, because they have four cannons. And, you're forgetting that if we take a 3 torpedo per minute figure, that comes out to 300 KT/minute. Which means that a BOP outguns an X-Wing. And a BOP definitely has more endurance than an X-Wing, at least 500 KT, which would take 125 shots by those four cannons of an X-Wing to penetrate. With a ROF of one per second, that's more than two minutes if you were to pit a tactically equivalent to a BOP against an X-Wing.

I understand why you would want to keep the bigger guns of the BoP but it is my assertion that this role can be filled by other capital ships easily enough, the X-wings you're now giving me are 4 times better.Assuming their guns are equal to that of a TIE Fighter.

Of course, since there are four cannons.

They can, but they have to do so quickly enough not to get fucked in the process. The Klingons don't have the same number of fighters as the Imperials would, ever. But they are given the technology to build and maintain these fighters which means they can put them intro production.

Just because they have to do something, does not mean they can. Tactically acceptable heavy losses for Empire in terms of fighters is not tactically acceptable heavy losses for the Klingons. The Klingons have far less resources to work with -- and far less fighters, orders of magnitude less.

Given enough ships to snipe the fighters!

See the above posts where I show that two hundred year old phasers will probably be enough to destroy a Romulan Maurader, which can dodge 600 m/s torpedoes. Watch the video. That is as maneuverable as I've ever seen. And I say probably because I'll know by Friday whether Archer gets destroyed by the Romulans. Since there are a few more episodes left, I believe I can safely say no.

Like i've said. A cloaked ship can sneak up onto its target, but then has to escape.

Huge fleet attacks, waits for enemy to engage or even recloaks and engages another target. What is so hard about that to understand?

A cloaked ship is not even guaranteed to go undetected given Fed methods of detecting cloaked ships.

I challenge you to find one method of detecting cloak which is plausible as a defense against a massive Klingon invasion of cloaked ships. Repeat after me, Federation sensors cannot defeat cloak. Already proven by canon numerous times, first example that comes to mind is Romulan sensors not being able to detect BOP despite being as good as the Federation, and the BOP flying all the way to Romulus and staying in orbit long enough for Picard to assfuck Spock (or mind meld, whatever you prefer).

A hyperdrive capable fighter pops in behind enemy lines, blows a bunch of shit up, then uses hyperdrive,

Totally inconsistent with what Klingons do with cloak. Replace hyperdrive with cloak, and you get a strategy which the Klingons do not use to its full potential.

the whole process takes a matter of hours, instead of days.

Again with the speed. The lack of speed of warp drive does not allow the Klingons to excuse themselves, unless you are silly enough to believe that a Klingon ship cannot hold enough supplies to cloak the few days it takes to go to Earth.

The Feds cannot chase a hyperdrive capable fighter, they can chase a cloaked ship.

Try and find an example of a Federation ship tailing a cloaked one. You cannot.

Federation fleet can reach Q'nos in a few days as evidenced by Klingon Chancellor and Federation President travelling to Khitomer.

*tears hair out* I SAID IT WOULD TAKE THEM DAYS TO GET THERE YOU JACKOFF.

You say that a few sentences later, not here. If we agree, no point contending this point.

If it takes a warp capable ship days to get from Fed space to Q'o'nos. Then it takes a Hyperspace capable ship MUCH LESS TIME! WAY less time, a few days? Lets say a few is, Oh I dunno 3 seems like a few right? Its more than a couple. At a low end lets say an X wing can cross a galaxy in 10 days (very low end). Lets say Voyager crosses the length of the galaxy in say, 100 years. 100 years = 36500 days! (There I made numbers for you, happy?)

Does not mean the Klingons will use cloak at all, and I have given a reasonable hypothesis in Klingon honor to explain why they don't use cloak to its full devestating potential. If it is dishonorable to hit-and-run with cloak, it will be far more dishonorable to hit-and-run with hyperspace.

With that kind of speed advantage the Klingons can fuck around in Fed space unihibited for a while while this mighty way to big Fed fleet of yours is in transit.

If the Klingons violate Klingon honor.

They've hit several key targets and are back in time for the inevitable encounter with said fleet. By this time the Klingons absolutely know the Feds are coming and will have their Fleet ready as well. The Fed fleet is then forced to fight on Klingon terms.

Sure, and then comes the huge battle where BOP will be useful because X-Wings can be taken out by a single phaser shot and BOP require several, and torpedoes as well.

REmember the Dominion War the AQ powers had to use the sort of ISland hopping strategy to reach Cardassia, they didn't just send every ship they fucking had there, on the same token the Dominion didn't just send everything it had to Earth, or Q'o'nos, or Romulus either.

This is a good point, but I submit the Federation wanted to island-hop because they wanted to free the Cardassians and destroy any hope of the Dominion resurrecting itself.

When an army has penetrated into the heart of a hostile country, leaving a number of fortified cities in its rear, it is serious ground. On serious ground, gather in plunder. On serious ground, I would try to ensure a continuous stream of supplies. On difficult ground, I would keep pushing on along the road.

You suppose that they island hop because they need a supply train, or that their forces do not have the range to attack Cardassia (the last point of Sun Tzu). You are wrong, because a large fleet of ships can obviously carry enough supplies and consumables to travel the few days it takes to go to a homeworld, proven by numerous episodes of deep penetration missions by BOP into enemy territory. Obviously there is another explaination to why the Federation island-hopped.

Well you disputed the fact that the X wings could hit targets while your uberwank Fed fleet was on its way to Q'o'nos and still be back in plenty of time for the battle.

No, I disputed the fact that you gave no figures for this claim. Fine, if they do, that does not mean the Federation fleet is decimated, and the X-Wings will be fighting the Federation fleet eventually, which means that they will be mincemeat to Federation capital ship fire.

On Klingon terms, in Klingon space. You really don't think the fucking Klingons wouldn't notice something like that?

Of course they will notice. That is the point. Once they notice, its time for them to head back and defend Klingon sovereign territory like their honor dictates. And then you'll want BOP rather than cheese X-Wings.

And you think the Feds would leave themselves wide open to the ROmulans, or any other groups along their borders?

The Fed seems to do this a lot. See the link I provded, Cpl Kendall agrees with me that the Romulan Neutral Zone is badly patrolled, and canon evidence agrees with me.

What's their supply line like? Oh I forgot, they're going to warp straight in and continue uninhibited of course. Doesn't matter even if they did, because they are fucked when they arrive.

Fucked when they arrive huh? By what, those X-Wings that get destroyed by one torpedo or phaser hit? And the Fed can't carry enough supplies for the few days/weeks it will take to go on an offensive? Please.

God you're a fucking retard.

And you have not given enough reason why the BOP should be replaced by X-Wings which are far less durable and have less endurance other than maneuverability and hyperspace. BTW, I've shown that Federation ships can hit small fast moving maneuverable targets. See the Maurader posts.

Jesus tap dancing christ. Is it really against "personal honor" to be faster than one's opponent? This is your argument?

No. It is against Klingon honor to attack someone in the back with such a massive speed advantage, and then run. That is what you are proposing, with your hit-and-run tactics are you not?

Well I showed you examples of how SW ships can hyperspace across the galaxy in days, while Trek ships take many years. Apparently that's not good enough for you.

It is, but since you are claiming more than that, that the Klingon fleet can take out the Federation faster than a sizable Federation force can reach Klingon space and force the Klingons to show their hand, I wanted more.

I see we're talking about your impractical wank Fed Fleet again. I already pointed out that that is going to get you. Betcha got a good hard on going writing about it by this point eh?

Bet you have a hard-on wanking those flimsy X-Wings huh?

Except with cloak you aren't guaranteed to get across enemy lines and you arent guaranteed to escape.

Find an example of Federation detecting a large cloaked fleet without the use of a Tachyon setup which can be easily bypassed.

Hyperdrive is too fast for the feds to do anything except guard potential targets, and if that becomes the case then they'll spend the entire time on a defensive footing and allow the Klingons to go on the offensive.

Assuming that X-Wings have the hitting power to destroy Federation targets of strategic importance without losing too many to attrition. Which you have not proven, because I have shown that colonies have 30-100 times the shielding of a Galaxy and are defended by phaser arrays and photons.

Already mentioned Fed countermeasures, and we know how long that "war" lasted also eh?

More than a few days, and how many times do I have to say that Federation countermeasures are not sufficient to defeat cloak. If you are so certain, bring out these so called countermeasures. You will see that they are not standard kit of the Federation, and the Federation can only deploy these countermeasures when they have advanced warning like in TNG Redemption. That's like saying redshirts of TOS will always carry photon grenades, when we only see Kirk use them once. One use of a technobabble solution means exotic kit, not standard kit.

And we know the Klingons were very much involved in Cardassian territory at the time eh? Im sure even you realize that a full scale invasion of not one but two large enemy territories stetches you out and leaves you vulnerable. How were the Klingons going to invade Fed space when already so committed eh?

Fifty ships, sent on cloak to the heart of Federation space, enough to destroy Earth which has no defenses and which the Klingons would have realized had no defenses.

DS9 is right next to Cardassian territory.

And it has taken a few days. Picard has travelled with a BOP cloaked into Romulus from the neutral zone, taking around eight days according to stardates.

Already mentioned fed countermeasures,

Already mentioned that it is the shared opinion of people on this board that the Federation cannot defend against cloak. See the end of page 3 and page four in this thread, which by the way I have given the link before and quoted the relevant information if you were too lazy to read it. I will quote it again.

They don't have to sneak across. All they have to do is storm the border and get across. Then they can operate under cloak with impunity.

You seem to be the expert on what Klingons do and don't do.

Ad hominem.

Fleet of ships can be replaced by any sort of unmanned sensor net, as I recall the Feds use one near the Romulan border.

Insufficient to defend against a fleet of cloaked ships, and the sensor net was insufficient as shown in TNG Redemption where Picard needed to send a fleet to stop Sela's forces from reinforcing Duras.

even if the Klingon ships cross the border you can't shoot while cloaked, you uncloak you lose your advantage, cloak only helps with stealth

Irrelevant, as you can decloak deep in Federation territory beyond the range of Federation defenses and then make a short warp to wherever you want to attack. You don't have to decloak right in front of their face.

but as you've mentioned previously Fed ships have a firepower edge on the BoP.

Irrelevant, as Klingon capital ships can cloak. Yes, we are only talking about BOP here, but since Klingon capital ships can cloak it does not excuse them from sending a massive force into Federation space.

The Klingon flagship, the Negh'var, uncloaks at the station.

They uncloak they had better win if they want to escape. (X-wings would just hyperspace out of there and head back to Q'o'nos and be there within a matter of hours, the danger of crossing through Fed space pretty much gone.)

And cloaking makes the danger of crossing through Fed space pretty much gone. And the X-Wings better win against those fixed Federation defenses if they want to escape.

*tears more hair out* I NEVER SAID THEY WOULD BE. HOw many times do I have to say that capital ship functions would be handled by Vor'Cha and similar class ships! Fucking hell man.

You said that Galaxy was not a good benchmark to use. What is then?

Cry me a river. You come up with so many fucking points where I have to repeat myself I lose track.

You repeat the same thing over and over, hyperspace, hyperspace, hyperspace, without a counter-theory about Klingon honor.

(speaking slowly, as if to a small child)

Because...in war...you want...to be...faster...than...the...other guy. It's so basic it's not even a fucking tactic!

It is if you want to use hyperspace to hit and run, which they don't use cloak for.

....At this point DF is so incredibly bored he no longer continues to read Brians postings, which must be filled with more absolute bullshit and wankery. DF apologizes and realizes that this is awful debate form. DF also realizes that any attempt to just walk away makes it appear as if he is trying to take an easy way out or a sort of 'too good to continue' approach. DF apologizes for that as well, but If Brian continues to argue that "Its not in Klingon character" to want to be faster than one's opponent then it really doesn't fucking matter if this debate continues.

You have no counter theory to why the Klingons do not use cloak in the way I and others have suggested to decimate the Federation. Bring that to the table and there's something to talk about. Logistics is a load of shit, because Klingon capital ships can cloak and even a BOP carries enough supplies to cloak deep into Federation territory. Countermeasures are a load of shit because they are not standard kit.

DF also hopes that a cure for cranial rectal inversion is found so that Brianeyci will one day see the light. He can walk away thinking he's won all he likes whatever, I don't give a fuck.

Sure, whatever. BTW, did you read the above posts about Romulan Maurader? With the Maurader theory, Federation ships can hit small craft maneuverable enough to dodge 600 m/s torpedoes.

Brian

[brianeyci]

They can cloak again and fly home, and still will be back home fast enough to regroup with the rest of the klingon navy to await the federations answer...

Exactly, which means that the Klingons must have a reason for not doing this if they are not to be labelled stupid. Klingon honor is a good theory.

The Klingons don't seem to be THAT rutheless as pictured...

The Klingons are not ruthless at all, they just like the occasional Gagh and Bat'leth brawl.

Brian

[Darth Fanboy]

*point has come to DFs attention*

Hey Brian, remember how you kept saying Klingons don't use cloak?

What about that episode of DS9 where about fifty Klingon ships decloaked right next to the station demanding shore leave, Sisko didn't have any idea of what was going on right?

Wouldn't that mean the Klingons HAVE used cloaked in a way you insisted they wouldn't?

Not that it matters, you're lame ass "not in Klingon character" argument doesn't hold up no matter what. As I said earlier though, i'm done with you, as your Wall of Ignorance is growing too high for you to see over.

[brianeyci]

What does any of this have to do with logistics. The reason capital ships don't usually go out on raids in RL is precisely because logistical support is required in greater quantities by larger ships and even more important in keeping then at peak performance.

They don't have to go on raids since capital ships can cloak, they just need to send 50 cloaked ships across the border, or a 100, or 500 for that matter. Fuck raids, go in and decimate the Federation.

Did I mention capital ships? No, I mentioned freighter and supply ships which according to DS9 can't cloak and require escort so it should be a piece of cake for the Feds to take out Klingon FREIGHTERS, dumbass.

Does not excuse the Klingons from not using cloak to decimate the Federation.

First what does the X-wing not having to worry about being cut off from support because it can hyper from base directly to its target have to do with Klingon honor, and sparing use of cloak.

Which means the X-Wing has to engage Federation military targets such as fleet concentrations/starbases/whatever that can defend against the X-Wing. Which means they get sniped off by Federation phasers which with the Maurader hypothesis can hit ships maneuverable enough to dodge 600 m/s torpedoes.

Second Kligons use cloaks quite a bit, not sparingly, to ambush Cardassian freighters for instance and to take out a major Cardassian base(the episode where Kira teaches Dukat how to fight like a guerilla). They use it when escorting freighters that can't cloak, whats the point in that?

To draw out a large force to attack the freighters, seemingly undefended. The Klingons like to fight. The use of cloaks every now and then does not excuse why they don't use cloak as a killing blow to the Federation. How about use hyperspace every now and then eh?

*sarcasm*
Really, the Klingons were allies of the Feds during TOS I did not know that?

The Romulans were turned back by Kirk's destruction of their cloaked prototype ship. If the ship had gotten back, and told Romulus how weak the Federation was to cloak, Romulus would have attacked. But as it happened, Kirk prevailed, and the Romulans were left scratching their head thinking the Federation could defeat cloak when they could not.

The Romulans could have attacked the Feds with the tactics you suggest any time from TOS to STVI, yet they didn't maybe because the outposts could hold up the Romulans and give adequate warning to the Feds,

Incorrect. See this thread from the bottom of page three and the top of page four, it is the consensus of many SD.net that Federation cannot defend against Romulan cloak. If you're too lazy to read,

Exactly, unless SF stops them at the zone they are fucked. Cloaked Warbirds could roam the Federation unchecked. Conducting hit and run raids on worlds before SF could stop them. As long as they travel under cloak their unstoppable. And the Neutral Zone doesn't seem well patrolled, the Federation doesn't want to provoke the Romulans after all.

maybe because the outposts would provide bases for the Feds to cut the Romulans off from supply and their line of retreat, maybe because they realized you don't leave enemy strong points at your back that can threaten your rear. Heck for a time the Klingons and Romulans were allies why didn't they send in a combined cloaked fleet and destroy the Feds?

Probably because the Klingons acted in character and didn't want to violate honor, and the Romulans knew that eventually the Klingon/Romulan alliance would be over. What alliance are you talking about? Is there one in DS9, I do not remember the Klingons and Romulans working together ever except for the Klingons selling Romulans D-7's and the Duras which were a fringe group and didn't have much support as shown when Enterprise-D faced only one antiquated BOP in Generations. Khitomer attack pretty much fucked any chance of the Klingons and Romulans truly forming any such alliance, as the Romulans were labelled as dishonorable from then on.

Picard turned back three warbirds with two K'Vorts decloaking beside him. The Romulans must have gotten the message that if the Federation is attacked, the Klingons would step in to help and attack Romulan space.

That doesn't explain why the Romulans needed Troi to give them Fed codes to shut down the sensor net.

Because they didn't want to be detected. Of course the sensor net is enough to detect cloaked ships, but all the Romulans have to do is breech it with 500 warbirds and the Federation is fucked. Repeat after me, Federation is fucked.

Nor does it take into account the risk of being cut off from home after getting into Fed space,

From the above thread,

They don't have to sneak across. All they have to do is storm the border and get across. Then they can operate under cloak with impunity.

and I heartily agree with them, as the Fed do not have standard kit to detect cloak other than fixed sensor defenses on border.

ala the Breen raid sure they got to Earth and hit SFHQ, yet not a one made it home, or the Romulans disastrous raid against the Dominion. Maybe the Romulans didn't feel like throwing a fleet away or committing suicide.

Incorrect.

SISKO
Starfleet was able to destroy
most of the Breen attack force,
but by then the damage had been
done.

Maybe the Romulans were turned back by brilliant Picard and his showing against the Romulans in TNG, which is by the way supported by canon and your "afraid" hypothesis is not. Your theory is equally plausable, and is in counter theory to your "Federation defenses can stop Romulan attack" hypothesis. Which one is it, either the Romulans are afraid of attacking, or the Romulans can be stopped at the border? By the way, the Romulans are not afraid, nor can they be stopped at the border.

The disasterous raid against the Dominion does not excuse Romulans from not attacking before. The Picard theory does. Remember the raid was orchestrated by rebel Tal'Shiar, not the Romulan navy. They could only get 50 warbirds, not 500.

I said the KLINGONS in DS9 take out Dominion and Cardassian outposts, shipyards, and convoys in raids. Not the Roms, I just listed the Roms attempt to take out DS9 (which would've succeeded if not for the stupid time loop) as further evidence of raiding tactics and capabilities demonstated in ST. Read the frickin' post.

Why did you mention Romulans at all, a red herring then? The Klingons used cloak, but not to its full potential. It can be argued that hyperspace will not be used to its wank-potential either.

That assumes the Klingons don't mount a defence in depth requiring the Feds to slowly fight their way through Klingon territory taking caualties the whole way,

This is not ground combat. This is space combat. And, the Federation just need to show up in force in Klingon territory to send the Vikings reeling back to defend their homeland.

and being cut off from fuel and ammo badly needed after each battle.

No canon evidence that they run out of fuel and ammo after each battle. If you suggest they need supplies, of course, but they can carry enough with them or work from a heavily defended Federation supply station.

And that assumes the Klingons don't use the BoPs they have to whittle away at and slow down the fleet in quick raids using cloak.

And you assume that the Federation won't achieve incredible success against the X-Wings, and why not when Federation can shoot ships that are maneuverable enough to dodge 600 m/s with the Maurader hypothesis.

As you say when up against a superior foe, the Klingons are going to use cloak to get any advantage they can. And you're the only one saying the Klingons won't use both BoPs and X-wings.

Who says they won't use both BOP and X-Wings? Of course they will, but the X-Wings which are striking deep into Federation territory won't be supported by anything if they are using their hyperspace advanatage, and would be whittled down to nothing attacking defended Federation assets.

Also, it takes quite a while to get 5,000 ships spread across 8,000 light years to assemble in one place the Klingons sould probably use X-wings to hit isolated ships on their way to the rendevous point

Assuming that they know where these isolated ships are, which is not a certainty.

and they could probably hit support structures which would prevent fleet from being supplied before it even leaves for Q'onos.

Defended support structures.

Yet we never see Fed ships hitting anything as manueverable as the Marauder in any episode not even the episode its in is the Enterprise able to hit the Marauder when its manuevering. Also, the Marauder looks to be no less than 1/3 the length of the Ent not exactly small, compared to an X-wing.

Federation fields Peregrines which are 15 m. Tomorrow, T'Pol will figure a way to deal with the Maurader. Plus the Maurader hypothesis is not just this, it explains why the Romulans made the switch from these fighter craft to Warbirds, and explains why the Federation has enough phaser accuracy to make enemy use of 15 m craft unreasonable.

Really, I didn't know that in an all out war between the Feds and the Klingons, with the Klingons having a mobility advantage, that the Feds wouldn't be in the same boat as the French in 1940.

They aren't. The Federation has fleet assets which would be able to strike back, and the Federation doesn't rely on fixed defenses like the Magnot Line that can be bypassed Borders are poorly defended. And the mobility advantage is just the X-Wings. Its like saying the French would have fallen by supposing that those tiny little two-man motorbikes can teleport anywhere. That's ridiculous.

Most Fed ships are deployed on their own or with a few others, heck in Nemesis a Fed battlegroup only has 7 starships.

Not after the Dominion war, when Starfleet expanded so that the loss of 40 ships was no longer significant. We know there are at least seven fleets, and

KAGAN
I was with the Seventh Fleet when
the Dominion attacked the Tyra
System. Ninety-eight of our ships
were destroyed in a matter of
hours. I lost a lot of friends.

Federation shipbuilding capabilities are 200 large frame ships and 1000 small frame ships roughly at UPS, and that's just one shipyard. Federation fleet should be about 5k strong by the end of the Dominion war.

Thus the Klingons could use the superior hyperdrive speed of the X-wing to strike at lone starships or small groups with enough X-wings to take them out quickly.

Assuming that they know where they are, and that they do not huddle together in 100 ship fleets as shown above.

And be able to do it repeatedly until the Feds start to assemble large groups, which will take a while with the slow speed of warp.

Let me give you a hint, just because we see Voyager or Enterprise-D travelling alone a lot of the time, it does not mean the rest of the Federation fleet is highly dispersed and not concentrated. In fact, the canon evidence disagrees with you since Starfleet reformed its strategy during the Dominion war.

You're missing the point. Maybe it's my fault, maybe I didn't state it well, or maybe you're being intentionally dense I don't know. However, BoPs like Chariots are more crew intensive than X-wings like Cavalry. And Cavalry like X-wings are able to go looong distances whereas BoPs like Chariots can't.

Federation manpower is two billion in Starfleet, Klingons should have a comparable number and have no crew shortage problems.

For instance an X-wing can cross half the galaxy in DAYS, the BoP can cross half the AQ in DECADES.

Incorrect, we know that Klingons are just a few days away by warp and they are in the Beta Quadrant. The battlefield is not the entire AQ, it is Federation and Klingon territory, which is small.

So compared to X-wings the BoPs ability to cross long distances is less. And BoPs aren't just as mobile if only due to their size I haven't seen a BoP fly through a canyon or a tunnel or less than 20m from a larger capital ship, and I haven't seen a BoP do anything close to the tight turns we see from X-wings in ANH and RotJ.

BOP are far more durable and have more firepower than an X-Wing. Mobility is not maneuverability, maneuverbility the BOP does not have, but the BOP is just as mobile, or able to go places as the X-Wing, just much slower.

I have shown with the Maurader hypothesis that Federation phaser accuracy is enough to hit highly maneuverable ship that can dodge 600 m/s torpedoes. As well, Peregrine fighter is 15 m in size. It s not too much of a stretch to say that Federation phaser accuracy is probably enough to hit X-Wings.

Also, the OP doesn't say it costs the same to maintain X-wings it just says it costs the same to build X-wings.

Nitpicking. If you claim that BOP require so much more maintainence than X-Wings as to make their use irrational, show the evidence. Klingons definitely don't have a manpower shortage, their entire population is available to the military.

Also, X-wings if only because they can operate from a central base will have less logistical needs and when the OP says they don't have torps that further cuts down on logistics.

Yes, but not so much as to make the use of BOP unreasonable. If you have evidence for example, that maintainence of a BOP is enough to make twenty more X-Wings, show it. Or even ten more. Or even one more. You know nothing about the expense to maintain a BOP, since its not canon.

And we don't see what a BoP requires in terms of support personnel, but even if we assume they can be maintained by their own crew that means for every BoP your tying up 12 people,

So? Klingons do not have a manpower shortage.

yet if we go by the hangar scenes in SW about 40 starfighters require no more than 200 people providing support which comes out to 5 per fighter which means that X-wings only require half the support personnel of a BoP including the pilot freeing up Klingon manpower.

The Klingons do not have a manpower shortage. Starfleet has two billion personnel at its disposal, Klingons should have something similar to be a threat to Starfleet.

Brian

[brianeyci]

*point has come to DFs attention*

Hey Brian, remember how you kept saying Klingons don't use cloak?

What about that episode of DS9 where about fifty Klingon ships decloaked right next to the station demanding shore leave, Sisko didn't have any idea of what was going on right?

Actually, if you see above, I actually bring up a quotation of Martok's Negh'Var and his fleet decloaking. Which is probably what reminded you.

Wouldn't that mean the Klingons HAVE used cloaked in a way you insisted they wouldn't?

Incorrect. Klingons fleeing from a battle because they need supplies and have heavy wounded is not dishonorable. "Fight another day" is the motto, not inconsistent with my Klingon honor hypothesis.

Not that it matters, you're lame ass "not in Klingon character" argument doesn't hold up no matter what. As I said earlier though, i'm done with you, as your Wall of Ignorance is growing too high for you to see over.

And you propose no counter theory to the Klingon honor hypothesis to why the Klingons didn't use cloak to decimate the Federation, other that logistics which is silly, or by default stupidity.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Brian did you try right clicking the link to the file and download? do you have a multi threaded downloader this might also alow this and lastly you can try looking in the cache for the file.

No, it pops open in a window and I cannot download it. Can you? What browser are you using?

There are reasons for and against klingons wanting and using x-wings. As for the honor argument there is one warrior in one small ship possibly taking on and killing a standard ST cap ship. I am pretty sure they will use them but not as widely as some here believe. For a start your limited in cargo capacity.

Yes, exactly. And it doesn't mean the Klingons will be able to decimate the Federation just becaue they have X-Wings.

Brian

[brianeyci]

What about that episode of DS9 where about fifty Klingon ships decloaked right next to the station demanding shore leave, Sisko didn't have any idea of what was going on right?

In fact, we get a demonstration of Klingon honor right in the exact same episode as the one about Klingon shore leave. Gowron and Martok decloak their fleet outside the range of DS9's weapons, and try to negotiate their way to get the Cardassian council members. Now why would Gowron and Martok have done this, when their ships were stated in "attack formation" and they could have just taken what they wanted by force? I believe by now, Martok is a changeling, and the Founders wanted war between the Klingons and Federation, so Martok could have convinced Gowron to attack first, talk later. But he doesn't. Klingon honor.

Then they attack. They do not decloak and sneak attack DS9, they decloak far away and fly their way into DS9 weapons range.

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

Nice to see briancyi using WRITER INTENT instead of actual proof.

Funny how the ignorant think they know what's going on in the minds of the characters.

[brianeyci]

Nice to see briancyi using WRITER INTENT instead of actual proof.

How is Klingon honor writer's intent? In fact, we see Martok decloaking and recloaking his ships in the same episode while docked at DS9 to keep his numbers a secret, yet Martok does not decloak his fleet point-blank at DS9 to attack DS9. Logical reason? Klingon honor demands you give your opponent a chance to fight back, if he is honorable.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Thanks to Bounty for suppling the photon dodge movie. For reference, here is the Maurader dodging 600 m/s photon torpedoes (assuming they do not go far slower than their modern 23rd century equivalents, from eyeballing they certainly look like they go as fast as any photons I've seen).













Brian