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Lost Soal wrote:Also according to that episode, the Klingons DID show up. There is a flashback of a BOP involved in the battle.

Actualy your completly wrong on all of this, but hey, your new.

Chakotey saw a montage of clips from all over the place, huge amounts of data from the Borg collective. He didn't just see 359 if he saw it at all. Nor was the fact that that chick survived 359 surprising. Its quite plausable that the cube was equiped with a sphere like the cube in FC. In fact the view in Picards dream in FC is exactly the same as the sphere in 'Drone', which supports the idea that the cube assimilated some people at 359 and sent them back to the DQ.

As for the Romulans, we know they had entire outposts scooped up in first season TNG by the Borg. Plenty of people to get back to the DQ.

for all intensive purposes,

Just FYI, the phrase is "for all intents and purposes".

Chris OFarrell wrote:

Lost Soal wrote:Also according to that episode, the Klingons DID show up. There is a flashback of a BOP involved in the battle.

Actualy your completly wrong on all of this, but hey, your new.

Chakotey saw a montage of clips from all over the place, huge amounts of data from the Borg collective. He didn't just see 359 if he saw it at all. Nor was the fact that that chick survived 359 surprising. Its quite plausable that the cube was equiped with a sphere like the cube in FC. In fact the view in Picards dream in FC is exactly the same as the sphere in 'Drone', which supports the idea that the cube assimilated some people at 359 and sent them back to the DQ.

As for the Romulans, we know they had entire outposts scooped up in first season TNG by the Borg. Plenty of people to get back to the DQ.

I,m not that new, just not the most prolific poster.
He only had access to the memories of the people joined with him, not the whole Borg database.
The Klingon presence has always been discounted due to the non-existant klingon wrekage but this episode shows multiple warbirds present.
Since at this point the only individual the Borg were interested in assimilating was Picard, her very existance is surprising and changes continuity, but what the heck. Why they would bother sending this small group back to their base is a question I would love for you to answer as without a decent reason, I would hardly consider it plausable.
How you geth from Picards dream to they must have used a sphere and sent them back, I don't get.
The Romulans I'll grant you is entirely passible, its just highly conveniant that someone from Wolf 359 ends up on the same ship.

JMS would be horrible for Trek, he would make religion an even worse part of the show; you thought Sisko and the fucking bajorans was bad enough......

MKSheppard wrote:JMS would be horrible for Trek, he would make religion an even worse part of the show; you thought Sisko and the fucking bajorans was bad enough......

When did JMS ever go overboard with religion anyways? The only one that i can count are the Priests that went to Babylon 5 and those weren't even a major focus of the series, only helped here and there. Franklin being a fundamentalist... yet that's only mentioned when needed and added depth to his character. JMS didn't go on a whole preaching spree with the series at all, took elements of religion and used them for the series but it was barely noticable.

If anything, Ron Moore has made BSG far more religious in its content in a way that IMO is not bad in any way except that it adds depth to the universe.

Nephilim wrote:When did JMS ever go overboard with religion anyways?

The entire Minbari/Human thing that ended the war.

Not to mention the entire Vorlon/Shadow thing going between those two.

Nephilim wrote:

MKSheppard wrote:JMS would be horrible for Trek, he would make religion an even worse part of the show; you thought Sisko and the fucking bajorans was bad enough......

When did JMS ever go overboard with religion anyways? The only one that i can count are the Priests that went to Babylon 5 and those weren't even a major focus of the series, only helped here and there. Franklin being a fundamentalist... yet that's only mentioned when needed and added depth to his character. JMS didn't go on a whole preaching spree with the series at all, took elements of religion and used them for the series but it was barely noticable.

It's FOUNDATIONIST. Franklin is the opposite of a fundamentalist. Fundies take their particular religion as the inviolable word of god; foundationists, on the other hand, are as open minded as possible because they believe all the religions of the galaxy are somehow right. So there can't be a fundamental inviolable interpretation.

I also doubt JMS would do anything 'worse' to Trek in regards to religion. Since when has religion been depicted as anything other than bad or superstitious in Trek? If anything, JMS would likely inject numerous POV on religion into the show to create diversity, while simultaneously continuing the Trek precedent of Mysterious Aliens Who Manipulate The Younger Races By Masquerading As Gods (what, you think JMS invented that archetype?). Big deal.

JMS is an atheist anyway, I doubt he'd be doing much in the preaching department.

EDIT: Although I think Shep was talking more about mystical pseudo-fantasy crap, which I can agree with.

MKSheppard wrote:

Nephilim wrote:When did JMS ever go overboard with religion anyways?

The entire Minbari/Human thing that ended the war.

JMS' intention with B5 was to show various forms of conflict, guerilla war, total war, revolutionary war, civil war etc. This would of course include holy wars, or jihads. Why not? The Minbari are fucking nuts. My only problem with JMS is that he continually depicted the Minbari as good when they're goddamn monsters. (well, some of 'em, at any rate)

Not to mention the entire Vorlon/Shadow thing going between those two.

The Vorlons did it to purposely manipulate the YR. The Shadows have no religious overtones, or manipulated others via religion, unless you're talking thematically (then the Shadows are demons and the Vorlons angels) as opposed to SoD.

Again... religion was not depicted as a good thing by this. JMS did depict religion in a positive light, but also negative. But those two examples are hardly what I would call going overboard, nor would it be considered proseletysing the audience. And it would be par for the course in ST, with it's established precedent of Alien Bigshots Who Pretend To Be God So They Can Fool Gullible Aliens.

If you wanted to argue that, why didn't you bring up the pseudo-philosophical babble G'kar espouses in one of the season five episodes?

HemlockGrey wrote:JMS is an atheist anyway, I doubt he'd be doing much in the preaching department.

Nitpick, I think he's agnostic.

Gustav32Vasa wrote:

HemlockGrey wrote:JMS is an atheist anyway, I doubt he'd be doing much in the preaching department.

Nitpick, I think he's agnostic.

His description of his religious beliefs goes:

I go the Mahatma Gandhi route...I am none of those things, and all of those things.

He states he's made it a point to read most of the major religions holy books.

Stofsk wrote:I also doubt JMS would do anything 'worse' to Trek in regards to religion. Since when has religion been depicted as anything other than bad or superstitious in Trek?

Not quite. In TOS, Monotheism and Christianity get positive nods, if not a ringing endorsement in one episode ("Bread And Circuses"). But then, recall that this was 1960s network TV and you really couldn't say anything bad about religion except if it was one of those superstition-based ones, of course.

I don't mind religion in fiction. Religion is a part of human culture and won't be going anywhere for a long time. Just so long as it's portrayed well, it's fine.

If anything, I thought Trek could use a little more depiction of religion, in a background kind of sense as we see it in real life. Also, get away from the damned one-religion aliens, which irks to no end. At least the DS9 relaunch is bringing a schism into the Bajoran religion.

As for JMS and religion, Garibaldi was avowedly atheist and quite blunt about it. Ivanova was initially wary of the monks coming onto the station for fear that they would go around prosletyzing. Other than the fact that he fell into the brainbug of one species, one religion for aliens, he did a fairly good job of keeping it visible as an element but not wallowing in it.

Petrosjko wrote:Other than the fact that he fell into the brainbug of one species, one religion for aliens, he did a fairly good job of keeping it visible as an element but not wallowing in it.

He didn't follow that for all aliens, the Narn followed many different faiths while some, in the case of Na'Toth, didn't believe in any.

Lost Soal wrote:

Petrosjko wrote:Other than the fact that he fell into the brainbug of one species, one religion for aliens, he did a fairly good job of keeping it visible as an element but not wallowing in it.

He didn't follow that for all aliens, the Narn followed many different faiths while some, in the case of Na'Toth, didn't believe in any.

Narn religion was always kind of ambiguous for me at least. It seemed like it wasn't so much a series of religions as it was a series of philosophies and histories, with a bit of ritualism thrown in.

Which was a nice twist, I'll say.

JMS is definitely on a mysticism kick right now. His recent work in comics is absolutely loaded with it. I wouldn't expect a Trek with more religious stuff in it from JMS, but I imagine his mysticism fetish would carry over.

Patrick Degan wrote:Not quite. In TOS, Monotheism and Christianity get positive nods, if not a ringing endorsement in one episode ("Bread And Circuses"). But then, recall that this was 1960s network TV and you really couldn't say anything bad about religion except if it was one of those superstition-based ones, of course.

Heh, although McCoy did referd to Genesis as myth in TWOK.

Uraniun235 wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:Not quite. In TOS, Monotheism and Christianity get positive nods, if not a ringing endorsement in one episode ("Bread And Circuses"). But then, recall that this was 1960s network TV and you really couldn't say anything bad about religion except if it was one of those superstition-based ones, of course.

Heh, although McCoy did referd to Genesis as myth in TWOK.

Mebbe McCoy's a Catholic?

Patrick Degan wrote:

Stofsk wrote:I also doubt JMS would do anything 'worse' to Trek in regards to religion. Since when has religion been depicted as anything other than bad or superstitious in Trek?

Not quite. In TOS, Monotheism and Christianity get positive nods, if not a ringing endorsement in one episode ("Bread And Circuses"). But then, recall that this was 1960s network TV and you really couldn't say anything bad about religion except if it was one of those superstition-based ones, of course.

Was it "Who Mourns for Adonais" where Kirk commented that they don't need the Hellenic pantheon of gods any more because "we find the one quite sufficient"?

Darth Wong wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:Not quite. In TOS, Monotheism and Christianity get positive nods, if not a ringing endorsement in one episode ("Bread And Circuses"). But then, recall that this was 1960s network TV and you really couldn't say anything bad about religion except if it was one of those superstition-based ones, of course.

Was it "Who Mourns for Adonais" where Kirk commented that they don't need the Hellenic pantheon of gods any more because "we find the one quite sufficient"?

Could have been talking about Gary Mitchell...