StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Gorefiend wrote:100 posts *does his happy dance* thx necronlord ^^" would have taken me until weekend without you.

btw. your right the sw db does not list the fighter number for the ssd, thought it did, must be from some other source i had in my head.

I will add that it's possible, maybe even likely, that the TIE fighter is simply a better and higher preformance machine than the V wing and other Clone Wars era fighters, and as such requires more space to keep it operation. Or that the methods used of storing so many fighters aboard the Venator were found to e unsafe for implementation abord later Imperial Vessels, something not without real world preceedent IIRC.

Well there must be some reason why an isd carries only 72 fighters and a smaller older ship has 420. Maybe they kept blowing up when hit at certain spots because fighter fuel tanks went up, or in fact the fighters themselves etc.

I mean all those fighters have to take up a whole lot of space, not to mention all the supplies and support crew they need. So something critical to fighter operations will be hit pretty often.

Not enough space. The ISD, though longer and overall wider, has less interior space than a Venator.

-The ISD has engines which are predoninantly internal, VenSDs have engines which are predoninantly external.

-The ISD has a HUGE primary reactor, so large that it requires a ventral bulb, the VenSD does not have a bulb, so its reactor is smaller.

-If WEG sources are to be believed, the ISD has 37,000 crew, not including fighter crew and troops. VenSDs have a crew of 7,500.

Take all this into perspective, and the Venator potentially can hold far more fighters than an ISD.

I'm glad we're actually getting these higher numbers from the PT ICS series. 36 fighers for a 1.2 km Mon Cal Cruiser, and 72 fighters for an ISD just smacks of the minimilism typical of most EU. It's great that the Venator's fighter capacity dwarfs the EU SSD's 144. While we can speculate on reasons why Imperial era ships carried less fighters, it would be better if they just made new books with higher numbers for all the OT ships.

I also hope the Acclamator, Venator, Mandator, etc. find their way into future OT era books, so that we'll get a REAL Imperial Navy. 20 years really isn't that old for a warship, especially warships in a universe that's mostly in technological stasis. Right now, the Imperial Navy is just LAME. If the EU is to be believed, it consists of a relatively tiny number of ISDs, and a bunch of tiny, ineffective, outdated pieces of shit, most of which are just plain ugly. Carrack, Dreadnaught, Corvette, etc. are ALL old. The VSD is ok, but it's also supposed to be old and somewhat outdated (and the EU originally placed the Clone Wars several decades earlier). The only modern ships are specialized, one-dimensional crap like the Escort Carrier and the Lancer frigate. Oh yeah, I forgot the ugly Strike-class Cruiser, the Empire's "best kept secret" (my ass it is). We're supposed to believe that the Empire only produced one truly modern, effective class of warship.

it would be better if they just made new books with higher numbers for all the OT ships.

I think i am gonna throw up now... the clone wars should back up what came before not shoot it of to limbo, it's not like we are playing star trek enterprise here.

also hope the Acclamator, Venator, Mandator, etc. find their way into future OT era books, so that we'll get a REAL Imperial Navy. 20 years really isn't that old for a warship, especially warships in a universe that's mostly in technological stasis. Right now, the Imperial Navy is just LAME. If the EU is to be believed, it consists of a relatively tiny number of ISDs, and a bunch of tiny, ineffective, outdated pieces of shit, most of which are just plain ugly. Carrack, Dreadnaught, Corvette, etc. are ALL old. The VSD is ok, but it's also supposed to be old and somewhat outdated (and the EU originally placed the Clone Wars several decades earlier). The only modern ships are specialized, one-dimensional crap like the Escort Carrier and the Lancer frigate. Oh yeah, I forgot the ugly Strike-class Cruiser, the Empire's "best kept secret" (my ass it is). We're supposed to believe that the Empire only produced one truly modern, effective class of warship.

öh
is their something about star wars ships you don't hate? ^^"

I think i am gonna throw up now... the clone wars should back up what came before not shoot it of to limbo, it's not like we are playing star trek enterprise here.

The past EU shouldn't be followed if it's stupid. Do you really like the SSD carrying a mere 144 fighters? The EU writers didn't have a clue when they came up with all those stupid numbers.

is their something about star wars ships you don't hate? ^^"

I don't hate SW ships. I hate the pussy, lame, ugly, and ancient Imperial Navy described by the EU.

Hmm could have been better I agree, but its their and I really hope they are not just goanna go of killing the EU, because that will the first step to taking it down the road st took. If you don’t like what has already been made of star wars, you better go sit with a different series like BSG, which made a point in parting from the past, or have some fun in infinites.

As it seems imperial imperial era ships have a lot more support ships then their older fellows, that might been the reason they lack fighters. The Hand does not have any support ships, the veni only a few shuttles and 40 of our beloved gunships.

Modern Star Destroyers carry along garrison bases as well (which must take a hell a lot of space), they seem to be more out for taking hold of planets, whilst the clone wars ships go of throwing cheap droid fighters and clone flown fighters at each other. The more then 400 fighters is still a bit hard to get down, but I hope they will explain it later on.

Gorefiend wrote:Hmm could have been better I agree, but its their and I really hope they are not just goanna go of killing the EU, because that will the first step to taking it down the road st took. If you don’t like what has already been made of star wars, you better go sit with a different series like BSG, which made a point in parting from the past, or have some fun in infinites.

Between the moment where stupidity exists and where it is corrected, something must be scacrificed. In the long run, might as well take the pain of corrections now rather than delay forever, becuase it would hurt even more if you decide to correct it later.

ST:E not only spat on continuity, but as I understood it was supposed to suck. If ST:E was a really good series, and they say they are overriding some of TOS with it, I'm not sure many people would feel disgust.

ROTS ICS scans are now available on MF.COM.

Chris OFarrell wrote:Woho! VSD mention! Kickass.

Seconded on that motion! so this brings up another question, where do VSDs fit in chronologically?

Acclamator>?Victory?>Venator>ISD>Super>ISD mk II>Eclipse>Sovreign

Victories are after the Venators and before the Imperators.

for every person who says 144 = bullshit you have another who says otherwise. I happen to be one of those pro-144 people and quite frankly i feel that with the PT lucas fucked up anything even close to being able to scale up or database the OT and now were left to pick up the pieces...

and honestly its all about reading through the text stream to get at the data stream, then you have what you want.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Victories are after the Venators and before the Imperators.

From the OP in this thread:

The hangars of the Venator-class are much larger than older Star Destroyers like the Victory-class, and can support hundreds of fightercraft.

It looks like the VSD's origin is being retconned.

BLAST raynor beat me to the punch.

Vympel wrote:ROTS ICS scans are now available on MF.COM.

Currently more like "pictures of the book with a digital camera."

Cabwi Desco wrote:for every person who says 144 = bullshit you have another who says otherwise. I happen to be one of those pro-144 people and quite frankly i feel that with the PT lucas fucked up anything even close to being able to scale up or database the OT and now were left to pick up the pieces...

and honestly its all about reading through the text stream to get at the data stream, then you have what you want.

144 fighters on the Executor IS bullshit. Even going by the erroneous 8 km length, that number is bullshit. Why the hell would a ship with a volume dozens of times greater than an ISD (regardless of which one of the three lengths you go by) have a mere two times the amount of fighters? Especially when the Executor-class seems geared more towards a carrier role, as Saxton pointed out?

Why is the Theta's static wick pointed forward? I thought they should trail backwards to release any accumulated static charges as any aircraft moves forward?

No firepower stats in the vehicle data files.

I'm wondering why everyone's so shocked at the lack of firepower figures, after all as I recall isn't the AOTC ICS the only one that has them?

Between the moment where stupidity exists and where it is corrected, something must be scacrificed. In the long run, might as well take the pain of corrections now rather than delay forever, becuase it would hurt even more if you decide to correct it later.

It has been around for some 15 years, you know? ^^

I am just waiting until some rationalises away thrawn with the same argument. “Ne, red eyed and blue alien imperial admiral, no way, that's stupied. Burn it all and reprint all the books so they star daala.”

Fill in the Clone Wars blanks and then go of somewhere past njo, or tell us what happened to tavira, something like that, not recreated star wars from scratch, just because the clone wars era ship design team has a competition going on how to fit the largest amount of under scaled fighters in a isd-like ship.

144 fighters on the Executor IS bullshit. Even going by the erroneous 8 km length, that number is bullshit. Why the hell would a ship with a volume dozens of times greater than an ISD (regardless of which one of the three lengths you go by) have a mere two times the amount of fighters? Especially when the Executor-class seems geared more towards a carrier role, as Saxton pointed out?

Because they are a design screw up? I know it’s EU (which most people here seem to hate even more then lucas himself and he makes money with it) but it has often been shown that SSD’s are just a waste. 2-3 isds can deliver the same punch for far less cost and aren’t as likely to go down with all hands aboard. The ships are just their to scare people, charm the imperial ego and to inspire you’re own troops. They are very good fighting material compared to standard larger warships, but not for their building costs. You are better of building a fleet, for a similar price, than putting all your eggs in one big ssd basket.

I'm wondering why everyone's so shocked at the lack of firepower figures, after all as I recall isn't the AOTC ICS the only one that has them?

Because we cant argue trekkies to hell without them ^^

btw. i cant find the stuff on mf.com

ARGH! And why did the photographer focus on the V-Wing when you can see the ARC-170's wing at the edge of the photo, being the main ship of the page? Same with AT-RT and the AT-AP, just a glimpse of the the AT-AP's cockpit at the side there....

Oh well. I guess I am thankful for these.

I am just waiting until some rationalises away thrawn with the same argument. “Ne, red eyed and blue alien imperial admiral, no way, that's stupied. Burn it all and reprint all the books so they star daala.”

What a strawman.

Thrawn = great character, essential part of the post-ROTJ story

144 = piece of TRIVIA, a useless number that was derived without any logic, and if changed would not affect the stories at all

Because they are a design screw up? I know it’s EU (which most people here seem to hate even more then lucas himself and he makes money with it) but it has often been shown that SSD’s are just a waste. 2-3 isds can deliver the same punch for far less cost and aren’t as likely to go down with all hands aboard. The ships are just their to scare people, charm the imperial ego and to inspire you’re own troops. They are very good fighting material compared to standard larger warships, but not for their building costs. You are better of building a fleet, for a similar price, than putting all your eggs in one big ssd basket.

This is ridiculous. How the hell could anyone screw a design up so badly that >90% of a ship's volume is useless? A terror weapon is FAR more effective if it isn't a pathetic piece of shit.

SylasGaunt wrote:I'm wondering why everyone's so shocked at the lack of firepower figures, after all as I recall isn't the AOTC ICS the only one that has them?

Well, the OT:ICS and TPM:ICS were written by Dr D.W. Reynolds, who was quite good, but then the AOTC:ICS was written by Dr Saxton. So, since he also wrote the ROTS:ICS, its just a natural assumption that the same format would be retained, but apparently not. I bet it was some sort of editing decision. Notice the acceleration/speed/hyperdrive range etc is still there. Still, I'd be very surprised if we don't get some interesting technical info out of it nonetheless.

What a strawman.

Thrawn = great character, essential part of the post-ROTJ story

144 = piece of TRIVIA, a useless number that was derived without any logic, and if changed would not affect the stories at all

The x-wing novels go down the drain if you change that fact, for one.
They are both established EU information of the same standing, but if we are at a preference editing spree across all sw. I for one can’t stand 400+ fighter venis, lets get ride of those first and make isard smarter while your at it.

This is ridiculous. How the hell could anyone screw a design up so badly that >90% of a ship's volume is useless? A terror weapon is FAR more effective if it isn't a pathetic piece of shit.

They are fine fighting ships just a bit overpriced for what they can really do. Sure on paper the kuati tell your they can take down entire fleets, the fact just is they don’t. It still looks very impressive if you bring along a space cruiser of more then 10km length in a galaxy where 1 km warships are already consider to be top of the line. The fact just seems to be that economies of scale don’t work to well for sw shipbuilding expect in bulk freight shipping and that only because you just need more space, not actually functional war technology.

Most of the SSD is likely taken up just for powering it (and getting it into hyperspace which seems to far more difficult with larger ships, after all their must be a reason why all really large ships require massive hyperspace drives and are still very slow in hyperspace, and that most warships don’t get much longer then ~ 2km), it also carries along a army and a crew of around a million. Add to that lots of support ships needed for getting your army down to a planet, 2 garrison bases, heavy shields, the armament of 8 1,6km long star destroyers…. you get the picture I think.

Sure the 144 figure strikes me as low as well, but it could most likely take along more if it gets ride of the fleet of support ships it carries. In the imperial era they properly took away most of the venis fighters to house landing ships, as with other imperial vessels, or they scraped them (because they are just very ugly maybe ).

Hell we already have.. a ship that requires thousands of heavy turbolaser equipped vessels to bring down? mmmmmmm

Hell we already have.. a ship that requires thousands of heavy turbolaser equipped vessels to bring down? mmmmmmm

As said above, that just strikes me as a bit of kuati ship advertising, the menis are supposed to be the older brothers of the modern super star destroyer which is also said to be able to take out entire fleets of ships, but plainly can’t. Saxton just doesn’t seem to want his super cruiser brainchild to be forgotten.

Gorefiend wrote:As said above, that just strikes me as a bit of kuati ship advertising, the menis are supposed to be the older brothers of the modern super star destroyer which is also said to be able to take out entire fleets of ships, but plainly can’t. Saxton just doesn’t seem to want his super cruiser brainchild to be forgotten.

Actually, by firepower calcs, it should be able to. But when you hold it back (Executor), or use inferior crews (Lusankya), it might be defeatable. When they aren't depicting fighter-wank situations, they show very well the strength of larger ships. For example, Harrsk's Shockwave could blow away a Vic with a single blow. Chimaera handily disabled an Assault Frigate at Sluis Van within an extremely short time, and Iron Fist managed to disable Mon Remonda despite being at some wierd angle so the Mon Remonda has better firepower.