StarDestroyer.Net BBS

@ NRS Guardian

I completely agree expect for two parts, though those might just be do to that I haven't read the bacta wars in years.

1. I though the Lusi (;) ) was crewed by the Imperials Isard took with her when leaving Coruscant
2. I also thought the shields already got knocked down by a volley of 80pts.

You would’t happen to have the x-wing novel quotes at hand? Saves me the trouble of searching for all of novels myself.

Okay. I guess I mostly got upset over two things, then

1) Executor is 11 miles long. We resolved this, I hope, with my OP.
2) Your stance on Executor's fighting capability, which is based on oddball situations rather than objective assessments of applicable scenarios (i.e. straight-up fleet battles rather than situations with run-down ships or holding actions).

First in The Krytos Trap pq. 37 "Though the Rebel fleet had managed to destroy the Executor at Endor, everyone knew that ship had died because of luck, not skill." This is Wedge's thought in response to the prospect of the Iron Fist showing up when they capture the station full of bacta. As for the number of PTs I misremembered however I think in total something like 300 missiles hit the Lusy and only screwed up the bow and starboard side and they were mostly aiming for the weapons trying to defang it in certain arcs to allow the SDs and fighters to operate without having to worry about being shot at, while they pound away. As for the crew of the Lusy I doubt it had a full crew while it was sitting under Coruscant for over 5 years (probably just a skeleton crew), and I doubt that it could get a competent crew aboard in time to bust off of Coruscant. Even if it did have a crew of elite imps, sitting under a mountain for 5 years isn't going to do good things for the crew. Just look at how Daala's SDs faired even with simulated training and decent crews after sitting for about 10 years in the Maw. Also, by the battle of Coruscant Isard's support had eroded considerably, she only had 1 SSD, 2 ISD-IIs, 1-3 VSDs, and 0-2 ISDs by the battle of Coruscant.

1) Executor is 11 miles long. We resolved this, I hope, with my OP.
2) Your stance on Executor's fighting capability, which is based on oddball situations rather than objective assessments of applicable scenarios (i.e. straight-up fleet battles rather than situations with run-down ships or holding actions).

1. that was resolved before you even started this post. ^^

What makes me wonder though is, if a newer source gives it the old size (or some other in general), that would make the new size the canon size, right? Unless G went over the movie and has vader say how big it is supposed to be.

2. well there really is nothing else we can base them on, we have only seen them at “oddballs”. The whole thing started when I had serious doubts that Saxton’s dreadnaught brainchild could really fight 1000 warships at the same time (as he said in ICS:ROTS), as Executor Class vessels have trouble beating smaller forces and the Saxton dreadnought is supposed to be the forerunner of our beloved “imperial command ship”.

It might on paper be able to do it, I just really don’t believe it could in an real engagement, even if it just ends in the smaller warships ramming the thing to death. It is just mho, as we are not likely to ever see them in action anyway.

Edit: Just found this quote.

“That presupposes that Kuat is working on another Super Star Destroyer. They’re horribly expensive. And even though they can do an incredible amount of damage, they can be destroyed by a much less expensive enemy force... though usually at a tremendous cost of life.”

Wedge in X-Wing Iron Fist

He might just be bragging, or guessing at the cost, but it doesn’t strike me that he doesn’t have a clue what it takes to get a Executor killed.

I see we're not, in fact, done arguing

Gorefiend wrote:1. that was resolved before you even started this post. ^^

Fair enough. It's worth having this thread exist for posterity anyway.

What makes me wonder though is, if a newer source gives it the old size (or some other in general), that would make the new size the canon size, right? Unless G went over the movie and has vader say how big it is supposed to be.

The size is derived from the films. The films are G-level canon. Ergo, no matter what is published subsequently, Executor is roughly 11 miles long. Its depicted as such in the films, it can be measured as such from the films. End of story.

2. well there really is nothing else we can base them on, we have only seen them at “oddballs”. The whole thing started when I had serious doubts that Saxton’s dreadnaught brainchild could really fight 1000 warships at the same time (as he said in ICS:ROTS), as Executor Class vessels have trouble beating smaller forces and the Saxton dreadnought is supposed to be the forerunner of our beloved “imperial command ship”.

Crippled, undermanned, or otherwise significantly disabled Executors, yes. Fully primed, battle-ready Executors? No. I weep for the thousand ships that decide to challenge Executor to a stand-up fight.

It might on paper be able to do it, I just really don’t believe it could in an real engagement, even if it just ends in the smaller warships ramming the thing to death. It is just mho, as we are not likely to ever see them in action anyway.

Edit: Just found this quote.

“That presupposes that Kuat is working on another Super Star Destroyer. They’re horribly expensive. And even though they can do an incredible amount of damage, they can be destroyed by a much less expensive enemy force... though usually at a tremendous cost of life.”

Wedge in X-Wing Iron Fist

He might just be bragging, or guessing at the cost, but it doesn’t strike me that he doesn’t have a clue what it takes to get a Executor killed.

He's thinking as a guerilla fighter, which is the only way to think about fighting an Executor. A smaller force using gimmicks and geurilla tactis will and has taken down an Executor. As I've been stating, this is how it's most often achieved. A straight-up battle between a battle-ready Executor and an opposing warfleet would end with the command ship emerging victorious amidst the shattered hulks of durasteel that formerly attempted to represent a threat.

Gorefiend wrote: 1. that was resolved before you even started this post. ^^

What makes me wonder though is, if a newer source gives it the old size (or some other in general), that would make the new size the canon size, right? Unless G went over the movie and has vader say how big it is supposed to be.

When its a lower source contradicting a higher source (for example, the continued repretition of the 120 km size for the 1st Death Star like on the Databank.) its basically overidden (although in most cases it can be salvaged in some fashion.) In the case of the Executor's size, there is substantial canon evidence independent of the DK books to corroborate a 11-mile length, the most important and reliable being the direct scaling from the movies. Of secondary but equally useful concern is the backstage information from books like "From Star Wars to Indiana Jones", and visual images (like the Archie Goodwin comics, the Balance of Power screenshot, the Guardian image - all of which clearly demonstrate an 11-mile length.)

It should also be noted here that when its dialogue vs visuals, visuals are considered more reliable because they lack the "human factor." (Special effects don't even enter into it, since we're looking at STar Wars from "suspension of disbelief." - ie you "pretend" its real. Just like when you watch say, Lord of the Rings, you pretend that Aragorn is chopping the heads of Orcs or stabbing trolls, not pretend-killing actors in costumes or computer generated images/puppets.)

For future reference: When you're dealing with two sources of equal status that conflict, you seek the rationalization that best accomodates both with the least amount of alteration. IT is also generally preferrable to avoid dismissing evidencee whenever possible in favor of rationalization, but its not always possible (and not everyone has the patience for ratoinalization - dismissal is much simpler.)

2. well there really is nothing else we can base them on, we have only seen them at “oddballs”. The whole thing started when I had serious doubts that Saxton’s dreadnaught brainchild could really fight 1000 warships at the same time (as he said in ICS:ROTS), as Executor Class vessels have trouble beating smaller forces and the Saxton dreadnought is supposed to be the forerunner of our beloved “imperial command ship”.

You're disregarding the issue of the quality of the vessels in question.
More specifically:

1.) How powerful/well armed are these Separatist destroyers? What sorts of guns do they carry, ,and what kind of firepower do they have?
OTOH, I wasn't particularily impressed with their offensive stats for a vessel of their size (compare it to the Venator.. the Separatist destroyer is like 1/4 to 1/6th the firepower of the Venator.) This may very well be deliberate - the text I believe specifies that the vessels are "mass produced", which suggests they are analgous to your standard battle droid - not especially impressive or deadly (compared to more powerful Droidekas or Super BD's), but adequate for most tasks, especially in numbers.

Its also worth noting that the 1000 ship figure was for what was required to outgun/overwhelm the Mandator - an upper limit. It by no means suggests that the Mandator could WIN against 1000 such ships (its possible 1000 such ships would totally overwhelm the ship's shields and destroy it if they fired all at once.)

2.) We know precisely zippo about the Mandator, except what we can guess at from it being a "Star Dreadnought." Does it carry fighters and groudn troops like an Executor, or is it a dedicated battleship? Is it faster or slower? More heavily armored/shielded? Does it have the same hyperdrive range? Same fuel supplies? Same crew complements?

Its entirely possible the Mandator is designed purely to fight and destroy other enemy battleships in combat. Even if its smaller than the Executor (a definite possibility), a highly specialized role could give it offensive/defensive capabilities apporaching, ,equalling, or possibly even exceeding the Executor.

He might just be bragging, or guessing at the cost, but it doesn’t strike me that he doesn’t have a clue what it takes to get a Executor killed.

Why not? Despite being a mere commander (and later a General) he clearly has alot of influence and friends in high places. He could clearly have access to the data on the Executor from Endor (or are you trying to suggest they wouldn't have sensor logs or "gun camera" data?)

Gorefiend wrote: 2. I also thought the shields already got knocked down by a volley of 80pts.

You would’t happen to have the x-wing novel quotes at hand? Saves me the trouble of searching for all of novels myself.

In ISard's Revenge a Victory-class Star Destroyer knocks down a Mon Cal Cruiser's shields in a single concussion missile volley. And a Mon CAl cruiser's shields are roughly comparable to a STar Destroyers. Obviously, warhead yields on missiles and torpedoes can vary rather drastically, especially for capital scale (the kinds used on the Lusankya)

Capital ships have been known to carry especially powerful missiles - some powerful enough to render a planet uninhabitable if not 'destroy" it (Lando Calrissian and the StarCAve of ThonBoka, and Traitor come to mind.) that at least puts warhead yields at 1e9 megatons.

Also, IIRC in the ANH radio drama rebel fighters carried "countermeasures" designed to assist in shield penetration. A missile, being a physical projectile, can clearly carry similar such hardware (whereas a beam weapon can't.)

Totally and utterly OT (I'm allowed to do that in my own thread, right? ), but whenever I hear 'Mandator' I can't help but think it looks like the links below and is about 6 miles long. I've no idea where that impression comes from, but there you are.

+http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/comics ... fondor.jpg
+http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/ssd/ssdold2.gif
SWTC Entry on Giel's Flagship

Fair enough. It's worth having this thread exist for posterity anyway.

Very much so, have it pinned if you can or added to "Common Star Wars topics (Please check before posting)"

Gorefiend wrote:Very much so, have it pinned if you can or added to "Common Star Wars topics (Please check before posting)"

Not up to me. Up to any mods who deem it worthy.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/comics ... fondor.jpg

from which comic did that come?

Edit: looks like the Executor being build, though the scale seems of.

Gorefiend wrote:from which comic did that come?

Archie Goodwin & Al Williamson's daily newspaper strips, reprinted by Dark Horse Comics as "Classic Star Wars".

Just found the same picture in the hyperspace web strips (now I know why it seemed familiar) and it does indeed seem to be the Executor.

It is.

Now, why did they name the ship "Executor?" Simply because it carries out the Imperial will?

You mean why did they name the class "Executor".

And yeah, that's pretty much why.

Gorefiend wrote:

Except that it's far too small for a ship of the Executor's size. Someone already said over 900 objects the size of HTL turrets have been counted, implying even greater numbers of medium and light arms, far surpassing EU stats.

In military science, a battery is a group of artillery or cannon, so grouped in order to facilitate battlefield communication and the organization of barrages.

- Wikipedia

It seems to be a question about how big you make a weapon battery. If you take the 250 ion guns away you are left with some ~4750 turbolasers, if you split that among 400 batteries (ignoring for now that some are light, some are heavy) you get ~12 guns per battery, which does not sound all that bad, but that is just a stab into the dark and we can anyway only take a guess how many gun bubbles the model really seems to have, not to mention all the small guns.

For the last time.. the WEG-derived stats don't apply to the 11 mile Executor because its a separate and distinct class of warship I have gone over this several times already.

Seperate and distinct class of warship? How about the fact that they're just God damn wrong? That's good enough for me.

I frankly prefer not to think there's some 8 kilometre Mini-Executor floating around out there.

Firefox wrote:Your quote specifies 200 "heavy and light turbolaser batteries". I pointed out that the 900 objects on the Executor's hull are the same size as the heavy batteries on an ISDI/II class. Assuming they are in fact HTL batteries, I doubt they're mixed caliber.

Actually its quite likely, since its unlikely the 5000 "turbolasers and ion cannons" refer to individual barrels, given that every other "data file" we have from the various DK books (including the ones Saxton has written) tend to number them as turrets (IE the Acclamators 12 "quad" turbolasers.) If the Executor does in fact have hundreds of ISD-sized HTLS (something which I am not entirely convinced of) then they are a separate class of weapon. (Official counts suggest that the Executor has mountings HEAVIER than the ISD - something perhaps analogous to the prow-mounted HTLS on those Separatist destroyers, perhaps.)

Of course, we've seen ISDs sporting at least 3-4 different classes of energy weapon, as has the Death Star, so a "mixed armament" does not seem out of place in the least.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Seperate and distinct class of warship? How about the fact that they're just God damn wrong? That's good enough for me.

I frankly prefer not to think there's some 8 kilometre Mini-Executor floating around out there.

As I said before, some people simply don't have the patience or capability for rationalization, and thus opt for the vastly simpler option of dismissal.

And in reality this is little different than what others such as Curtis have done with warship visuals portrayed in, say, Dark Empire? He's argued for the existence of variable ship classes on far less detail than there is for the "5/8-mile" SSD.

Actually its quite likely, since its unlikely the 5000 "turbolasers and ion cannons" refer to individual barrels, given that every other "data file" we have from the various DK books (including the ones Saxton has written) tend to number them as turrets (IE the Acclamators 12 "quad" turbolasers.)

McC has already pointed out that the panels are of different sizes. Unless they are all HTL turrets of different gun counts per, I'm inclined to believe they may serve a variety of functions.

As for Executor's shield power, I'm surprised no one has emphasized the incident where three cruisers slammed into the SSD's shields as they emerged from hyperspace. That, and what has already been pointed out that only the bridge deflectors had been brought down by the Rebel fleet indicates some powerful shields, EU minimalism be damned.

He's thinking as a guerilla fighter, which is the only way to think about fighting an Executor. A smaller force using gimmicks and geurilla tactis will and has taken down an Executor. As I've been stating, this is how it's most often achieved. A straight-up battle between a battle-ready Executor and an opposing warfleet would end with the command ship emerging victorious amidst the shattered hulks of durasteel that formerly attempted to represent a threat.

I don't think this can be stressed enough; in the OT, out of numerous battles, we only see one fleet action (Endor), and even then under 'oddball' circumstances. There's no way, beyond speculation, to judge the effectiveness of Executor-class battleships when the Executor is never in a position to engage in the way it was built and designed. That's like pointing at the Yamamoto and saying, "That's not a very powerful ship," despite mounting the largest naval guns ever fitted.

Of course, we've seen ISDs sporting at least 3-4 different classes of energy weapon, as has the Death Star, so a "mixed armament" does not seem out of place in the least.

Even modern, "all-big gun" battleships carried dual-purpose guns (like the 5" anti-air/anti-ship guns on Iowa-class U.S. BBs). I don't think this is an issue of mixing up armament as it is just good engineering. Guns that are both anti-fighter and anti-small ship scattered throughout the ship make good use of space, energy and armament.