The Culture vs DBZ

[Yogi]

Spouting gibberish now, Junior? What in the name of Beelzebub's bunghole does that have to do with anything written in this thread?

MEANING, that using the Dubbed Anime as evidence for Dragonball is around as accurate as using the Star Wars Managa (actually released in Japan, so I've heard) as evidence for Star Wars. Sure they're both accurate, to a very loose extent. However, they suck at specifics.

But, no, let me try a different tac: Is it or is it not possible to analyze the events depicted in DBZ utilizing real physics as a baseline, objective mode of analysis?

Around as possible as it is for Star Wars. In other words, no. There is no way one can account for conservation of energy for people throwing aruond those massive attacks. The energy has to some from SOMEWHERE. Goku does eat a lot, but that's not going to help him.

[Yogi]

No, it is not, You have to throw out conservation of energy at the very start, then chuck out relativity if we are to believe his speed figures. The light and sound have to operate under completely different principles in that universe if we are to believe his drivel.

Same with Star Wars. Sound in space? Hyperdrive?

Finally, the effects of gravity have to propagate differently, because the characters are dense enough to swallow entire galaxies instantly.

??? All right, THAT I missed. Since when did someone swallow an entire galaxy? Majin Buu DESTROYED 12 galaxies, not swallowed.

[Vejut]

Except Star Wars is more internally consistent. Plus, the energy, once generated, stays around...or at least doesn't disappear so obviously...

and the second part is him insulting your characters intelligence.

[SirNitram]

Except Star Wars is more internally consistent. Plus, the energy, once generated, stays around...or at least doesn't disappear so obviously...

and the second part is him insulting your characters intelligence.

Not quite. Relativistic mass gain.

[Yogi]

All right, I will admit it. Yes, Dragon Ball violates the laws of physics. Yes, what I claim for them to do would be impossible in the real world. Yes I admit that.

*Pauses to take a deep breath*

But so is 99.9999% of the stuff debated on this board!!

Yoda chucking a stone pillar with the force is ALSO impossible. Rand al Thor tossing around Balefire is ALSO impossible. Samus with her freeze beam is ALSO impossible. The Justice League and the X-men all violate uncountable laws of physics.

Dragon Ball violates laws of physics? NO FUCKING SHIT!!! Gee, give the man a cigar, Captain Obvious!!

What we debate is not what is possible for them to do, but what they can do. You see Yoda chucking a pillar with The Force, so we assume he can do that. We see Roshi blowing up the moon, we assume Roshi can do that as well. Later on, we see someone ten times as powerful, we assume he has ten times the firepower. Is it impossible? Of course, but no one cares. If impossible things bother you, then I suggest you find anothre hangout besides the science fiction forum.

[Connor MacLeod]

Now, YOUR turn. For each and every feat you put forward for the Culture, prove that they can do it, that it is standard for the Culture to have that ability, and prove that they constantly use that ability.

Gladly, sparky:




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"The Mind weighs several thousand tonnes, despite its relatively small size. An annihilatory destruct would rip the planet in half and so antagonize the Dra'Azon"
Consider Phlebas, page 25

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"'The Culture craft was hiding in the surface layers of the system sun,' Xoralundra said bitterly, more to himself than to Horza."
Consider Phlebas, page 32

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"He looked for the Culture ship, then told himself to not to be stupid; it was probably still several trillion kilometres away. That was how divorced from the human scale modern warfare had become. You could smash and destroy from unthinkable distances, obliterate planets from beyond their own system and provoke stars into novae from light-years off . . . and still have no good idea why you were fighting."
Consider Phlebas, page 33

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"That line of light was part of the grid itself. the fabric of pure energy which lay underneath the entire universe, separating this one from the slightly younger, slightly smaller antimatter universe beneath. . . A line of that energy, plucked from nowhere and sliced across the face of the three-dimensional universe, was down there; on and inside the Orbital, boiling the Circlesea, melting the two thousand kilometres of transparent wall, annihilating the base material itself, straight across its thirty-five-thousand-kilometre breadth. Vavatch, that fourteen-million-kilometre hoop, was starting to uncoil. A chain, it had been cut.
[...]
The livid line of fire appeared again and again, and again, working its way methodically round the Orbital from where the original burst had struck, neatly parcelling the entire Orbital into squares, thirty-five thousand kilometres to a side, each containing a sandwich of trillions upon trillions of tonnes of ultradense base material, water, land and air. . .
[...]
"The Weaponry of the end of the universe." the Mondlidician had said. Horza watched the screen and knew what the man had meant. . .
[...]
The Orbital was now a rosette of white flat squares backing slowly away from each other towards the stars: four hundred separate slabs of quickly freezing water, silt, land and base material. . .
[...]
Just as Horza thought the Culture would be content with that, the screen lit up once more. Every one of those flat cards, and the Hub, of the exploded Orbital blazed once more with an icy, sparkling brilliance as though a million tiny white stars were shining through each shattered piece. The light faded, and those four hundred expanses of flat worlds with their center Hub were gone, replaced by a grid of diced shapes, each exploding away from the others as well as from the rest of the disintegrating Orbital. Those pieces flashed, too, bursting slowly with a billion pinpricks of light which, when they faded, left debris almost too small to make out. Vavatch was now a swollen and spiralled disc of flashing, glittering splinters, expanding very slowly against the distant stars like a ring of bright dust. The glittering, sparkling centre made it look like some huge, lidless and unblinking eye. The screen flashed one final time. No single points of light could be made out this time. It was as though the whole now vague but bloated image of the shattered circular world glowed with some internal heat, making a torus-shaped cloud out of it, a halo of white light with a fading iris at the centre. Then the show was over, and only the sun lit the slowly blooming nimbus of the annihilated world. . ."
Consider Phlebas, pages 255-257 (Originally quoted by IXJac)

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"The two 'Killer' class Rapid Offensive Units Trade Surplus and Revisionist raced through the hyperspace... [...] Their engines were a focus of energy almost beyond imagining, packing sufficient power within their two hundred metres to equal perhaps one per cent of the energy produced by a small sun, flinging the two vessels across the four-dimensional void at an equivalent speed of in real space of rather less than ten light-years per hour. At the time, this was considered particularly fast"
Consider Phlebas, page 281
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"Statistics Length of war: forty-eight years, one month. Total casualties, including machines (reckoned on logarithmic sentience scale), medjel and non-combatants: 851.4 billion (+- .3%). Losses ships (all classes above interplanetary) - 91,215,660 (+- 200); Orbitals - 14,334; planets and major moons - 53; Rings - 1; Spheres - 3; stars (undergoing significant induced mass-loss or sequence-position alteration) - 6. Historical perspective A small, short war that rarely extended throughout more than .02% of the galaxy by volume and .01% by stellar population. Rumours persist of far more impressive conflicts, stretching through vastly greater amounts of time and space. . . . Nevertheless, the chronicles of the galaxy's elder civilisations rate the Idiran-Culture war as the most significant conflict of the past fifty thousand years, and one of those singularly interesting Events they see so rarely these days."
Consider Phlebas, page 462
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"'How far away is it from here?' 'Hey; calm down. It's about two and a half millennia away.'
[…]
Two thousand five hundred light years. It was, as the urbanely well-travelled people on a GSV would say, a long walk. But close enough -by quite a long way- for a warship to minutely target an effector, throw a sensing field a light-second in diameter across the sky, and pick up the weak but indisputable flicker of coherent HS light coming from a machine small enough to fit into a pocket."
Player of Games, page 69
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"They went slowly through the many layers of fields; the bumpfield, the insulating, the sensory, the signalling and receptor, the energy and traction, the hullfield, the outer sensory and, finally, the horizon, until they were free in hyperspace once more."
Player of Games, page 113
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"The ship saluted too, using its effectors to produce artificial auroras; roaring, shifting folds of light in the clear still air above it." >Player of Games, page 301

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There have been very few actual battles in the Culture novels. We hear people/Minds talk about them but I only recall two being actually described.

One is a battle between an Idiran cruiser and a Culture GCU in the beginning of Consider Phlebas. The battle seems to last atleast a few minutes, although I think that the GCU was going for a capture rather than destruction. Ranges aren' stated. The Idiran ships was heading out of the system and the GCU was (most likely )somewhere close to the sun, so a we're talking about a few lightminutes at absolute minimum.

The other one is the famous 11 microsecond battle in Excession. The ROU Killing Time attacks a bunch of older Culture ships.


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It sensed the oncoming fleet ahead, like a pattern of brightly rushing comets in that envisaged space. Ninety-six ships arranged in a rough circle spread across a front thirty years of 3-D space across, half above, half below the skein. Behind the lay the traces of another wave, numerically the same size as the first but taking up twice the volume.
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For this last one, here are some page scans:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/hofoen/Culture/Battle1.gif

http://koti.mbnet.fi/hofoen/Culture/Battle2.gif

http://koti.mbnet.fi/hofoen/Culture/Battle3.gif

http://koti.mbnet.fi/hofoen/Culture/Battle4.gif

http://koti.mbnet.fi/hofoen/Culture/Battle5.gif


---

Some idea on Culture weapons:

Culture weaponry: (in order of most to least powerful)

Gridfire: This is an incredible weapon, essentially pouring energy from the energy grid into realspace to inflict horrendous damage, sufficient to slice apart orbitals and destroy planets. The emissions can appear anywhere in any shape, and (on a GSV anyhow) has a range of over 1500 parsecs. However, since the only time we see it used is against an orbital, from a military GSV, I am going to suggest that it is primarily for strategic use. We don't see it used at other times when vessels are in hyperspace, so perhaps either it is less effective going from the energy grid into hyperspace, or else a ship in hyperspace can detect the upwelling and dodge it. In addition, the generators may be fairly bulky, thus making it rather unsuitable for use on ROUs, at least without a significant reduction in other ordnance.

Nanohole bombs: Delivered via Displacer, these seem to be the primary 'heavy weapons' of most Culture ships. They are in essence a microscopic singularity, and are capable of destroying a planet. Even non-combat GSVs carry them or can rapidly fabricate them. (The State of the Art)

CAMs: Acronym for Collapsed Anti-Matter, CAMs are the other common 'heavy' weapon normally used by Culture vessels, and like Nanohole bombs are Displacer-delivered. Details are rather sketchy, but it seems they are a form of antimatter that has been collapsed and generates much more energy when they react with normal matter. (antineutronium or something more exotic? Would not be surprising)

Lineguns: Lineguns are gravitonic weapons, capable of punching through Culture shielding and inflicting grievous damage upon the largest vessels. However, their limited deployment likely means that either there is now an effective countermeasure to them, or else they are short ranged. (in-system ranges) Also, they may be slaves to the inverse-square law, which would mean at point blank ranges they are supremely powerful, but at longer ranges they get much weaker. More research is needed.

Plasma charges: Another displacer-delivered weapon, plasma charges are weaker than CAMs or Nanoholes, however, they still seem to make up a reasonable portion of a fairly modern Culture warships arsenal, as of the Excession crisis. I postulate that this is because the plasma can be generated much more quickly than expendable munitions like CAMs and Nanoholes, and thus it is a dependable and (with Culture level tech) likely still potent weapon system.

CREWS: Acronym for Coherent Radiation Emission Weapon System, aka a laser. Limited to lightspeed, CREWS would be distinctly secondary weapons. Culture CREWS are variable frequency, normally firing in the X-Ray spectrum. This variable frequency capability leads me to believe that the technology had its roots in free electron laser technology. Also, standard mirror fields make most ships, not to mention drones virtually invulnerable to all but the highest-energy lasers.

Effectors: Effectors are a rather unique case, in that from a damage perspective they are severely limited, however, they are supremely flexible. In fact, they are not weapons per se but actually electronic warfare devices that are so powerful that they can act at times as weapons. They can be boosted through hyperspace, giving them ranges comparable to that of gridfire. Also, older model effectors, at least high powered military ones required to be aimed at their target, with the entire device shaped like a large eyball.

Pancakers: Another gravitonic weapon, pancakers essentially increase the gravity of an area (such as the inside of a ship) to incredible levels, 'pancaking' the crew into an unhealthy rasberry jam. However, this has little to no effect on a ship itself, putting it at the bottom of the list.

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http://koti.mbnet.fi/hofoen/Culture/Time.gif

This last been is said to infer potential Picosecond reaction times, but that seems to be up to some debate.

However, as already established, they have at LEAST microsecond reaction times, and the book Look to Windward establishes minds have nanosecond reactions - a mind has billions of thoughts per second to a human's mere 20-30 separate thoughts.

And here is a useful page with culture quotes:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/hofoen/Culture/

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[Connor MacLeod]

You can check the thread yourself if you like:

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... genumber=1

I started the thread specifically so that you could get some information on the Culture from more than just me (and for that matter, to verify my own memory, which is admittedly nto as good as I remember.)

---

However, as it stands, the Culture's got:

- FTL speeds in the tens of thousands - hundreds of thousands if not millions of times c. Their engines output energy comparable to a tiny percentage of a sun's output (like a percent or so, but which is still significant)

- A diverse and destructive assortment of weapons from ultra dense antimatter charges and plasma to microscopic black holes and GridFire. These can be delivered FTL via displacers for ranges that are easily light minutes or light HOURS or even light DAYS, and potentailly as far as light years. The output of said weapons can handily destroy entire planets.

- the self destruction of a Mind can destroy a planet.

- Reaction times range from microsecond to nanosecond rnage,s and possibly as high as picosecond.

- They can hide in the surface layers of suns - presumably for extended periods of time. Considering the magnitude of the energies they toss around, their defenses seem capable of resisting energy of similar magnitude.

Hell, even the SCALE of conflicts far outmasses the DBZ universe. Frankly it seems the Culture has nearly every advantage in combat against DBZ - or even enough of them were we to grant concessions to DBZ about its abilities.

[Connor MacLeod]

When people unleash Ki, you see thr ground around them being destroyed, but not the ground they are standing on.

Which proves what, that the ground close to them shares the same protection they do against their own energies. Lets try something else - is there tangible proof that they can block or redirect energy at extended distances from their own person (IE protect say a 10 meter radius around the Z-fighter, including the ground or anyone on it.)

1) Freiza fires at planet
2) Goku braces for impact
3) Nothing happens
4) Freiza states "My goodness, you must think I've lost my touch. The planet is still safe, but the core is gone. It will blow in 5 min.

Destroying the core of a planet will not scatter its mass. Only a massive influx of energy sufficient to eject mass at escape velocity will do so. The FACT this didnt happen instantly the minute Frieza fired the blast is proof that it cannot be quantified. The MECHANICS of the situation, no matter how you argue them, prevent it from being quantified in the same way the DS is. Just how difficult is this for you to understand?

You were arguing that the blast took time to travel. I say that the blast traveled fast, not that it could split the planet. If you want a Death Star attack, see Form 1 Freiza nuke Vegeta-sei with little effort.

If I am remembering the same attack (the slow moving one the Saiyans weren't able to dodge, that is.) It didn't destroy the planet very rapidly either, for that matter. I dont suppose you actually timed the incident?

If you're talking about charging the sword with Ki, see Vegeta, Freiza etc. throwing rocks. If the rocks were just normal, 21st Tenkaichi Boduki could take them easily, the rocks would simply break apart if thrown too quickly. The answer:putting energy into the rocks.

Ok. That works.

If you say that they they had NO ki to attack or defend with, then a sword is just a sword, and flesh is just flesh. Then it will work just like regular humans with regular swords, no contradction there.

That works too. But it still proves my point about the Z-fighters abilities being overrated.

Specialty attacks will work on them, however those attacks are clearly marked as specialty. Prove that regular Ki blasts are cutting. Remember, Nappa was utterly confident that he could take the blast, proving that the vast majority of attacks are power based. It took Vegeta to realize that it was not a normal attack. The Ki-en-zan is CLEARLY the exception.

You're missing the point. I'm using this as PROOF that Z-fighter abilities are overrated (IE the typical "they toss around planet killing energies so they would demolish any other universe easily." argument that is staple among the DBZ fanboys.).

As I said, in the Anime speed is relative. When Freiza fired his blast to kill Dende, no one could track it. Later on, Cell used the same attack and everyone could see it. People were fighting entire battles faster than the eye could see at the 21st Tenkaichi Boduki, and that was a friendly tournament. Are you saying that they would deliberatly move slower when the fate of the entire universe was at stake? Would you then like to say that all the "bullet time" scenes in The Matrix were actually in real time, and the Agent was just firing really slow bullets?

Even accepting the notion that "speed is relative" how does this prove they will be able to match the fighting capabilities of the Culture? Reaction time is only a tiny part of it. I don't recall Z fighters ever tossing energy bolts at each other from light seconds, much less anything farther away. And I don't recall them moving at many thousands of times c regularly.

(This is disregarding the other points other people have brought up regarding the speed issue, so I don't see any need to comment here.)

My .47c calc is for your perusal. All the sources have been listed for your verfication pleasure. Find the place I mis-quoted a source, or made a mistake in my calculation, and tell me about it. Otherwise, it is a valid proof.

Cite the source where you derive the 5 meter calc from (IE was this actually measured or just guessed) and where the .47c figure is derived from (specific source, and if its not a stated value, as how it is derived.)

Its only valid when you're presenting your proof for others to be able to evaluate and criticize. You may have noticed that people DO present quotes when asked for proof.

Porportional increase in all capabilities. When someone weaker is fighting someone steonger.
1) The stronger person hits harder (Tenchinhan vs. Nappa)
2) The stronger person is tougher (Tenshinhan vs. Nappa)
3) The stronger person is faster (Tenshinhan vs. Nappa)
4) The stronger person reacts faster (Goku vs. Nappa)
5) The stronger person has stronger energy attacks (Kuririn vs. Nappa)

There are TWO exceptions to the rule (USSJ Future Trunks vs. Perfect Cell, and Buffed Perfect Cell vs. SSJ2 Gohan) in which speed does not increase. However, they are stated as exceptions. This is true for everys single fight in recorded Dragon Ball Z history.

This isn't quantitative proof. What you NEEd is an example where someone's power level increases, and we have measurable examples of their reaction times (or a suitable equivalent, say of someone of comparable capabilities) both before and after.

Simply reiterating the concept that someone who has more power fights better is not specific enough.

Next, you're going to ask someone to prove that Batman has batterangs and carries them around at all times.

If you want to be anal retentive about it, yeah. Does he carry them around as Bruce Wayne (who is essentially Batman. I might remind you that in Batman beyond, when Shriek was driving Wayne mad, the reason Bruce cited as proof he KNEW he wasnt mad was because he doesn't call himself "bruce wayne" in his own mind..)

But of course, the point is that your side has presented a remarkable lack of quantitative proof, and what little you did still has unsupported variables attached. Beyond which you're attempting to vacillate between DBZ being quantifiable and not being so - attempting to dodge potential contradictions to your claims. If you havent noticed, you're faring badly.

I'm only going for low end calcs here, so it IS a general Order of Magnitute type guess (and it's all we really need). If you think I made bullshit up, then please point out where I am bullshitting.

Already have. What you have isn't even low end, its guesstimate until you've quantified it better.

Nope, I said that just be reading the individual frames of the Manga does not tell us how much speed passes. Hence the reason I have to use calcs.

Speaking of the Manga, you have not proven that it rates higher than the anime btw. I want a canon policy for DBZ, now. Otherwise I have no reason to take your word that the manga is higher canon.

True, unless there are a lot of people together on the warship. While Planet Namek was very sparsely populated, the individuals were quite powerful. He'll have problems detecting a small ship.

Can Z fighters fight over FTL distances - say light minutes or light hours? Because they better if they hope to engage a Culture Warship.

Here's some common sense.

21 Tenkaichi Boduki Kuririn vs. Muten "Jackie Chung" Roshi = Fight over before people knew it even started
The fighters only get more powerful from then on.
The situations become much more dire than a friendly tournament.
And you're saying that they're fighting SLOWER?

Toei had a choice. They could slow things down to make the Anime, or the fight scenes wold last one frame. Since they wanted to make Anime people would watch, they went the other way (a bit too much in the other way).

This tells us little about the actual speed. Moving faster than the eye can see need not require FTL speeds or even nearly relatavistic speeds (bullets move faster than the eye can see, for that matter.)

I suppose if I wanted to be anal retentive about it, I could ask just HOW this fast movement works, and how they bypass inertia and just where the Kinetic energy they build up goes.

Listen please. The scientific method requires experimentation. How do I experiment on people who exist only as Manga characters, Anime characters, and the odd fanfiction?

Its still applicable in sci fi analysis. Thats the foundation sites like SD.net and SWTC are based on, if you haven't noticed.

Going PURELY off the top of my head.

Goku & Piccolo vs. Radditz: Radditz was moving faster than Goku and Piccolo.
Tenshinhan vs Nappa: Nappa was moving faster than Tenshinhan
Goku vs. Nappa: Goku was moving faster than Nappa
Goku vs. Vegeta: Whoever was stronger at the moment would move faster.
Vegeta vs. Burtur: Burtur was so fast Vegeta coudn't track him
Burtur vs. Goku: Goku was so fast Burtur couldn't track him
Freiza vs. Nail: Freiza was moving so fast Nail couldn't track him (while he wasn't standing there letting Nail hammer on him futily)
Piccolo vs. Freiza: Whoever was stronger at the time would be faster
Freiza vs. Vegeta: Freiza was outclassing Vegeta in speed
Freiza vs. Goku: Whoever was stronger at the moment would be faster
Trunks vs. Freiza's Goons, King Kold, and Freiza: Trunks outclassed them in speed
Vegeta vs. Android 18: After Vegeta tired, Android 18 was outclassing him in speed.
Android 17 & 18 vs. Others: The Androids were clealy faster
Vegeta vs. Form 2 Cell: Vegeta was faster
SSJ2 Gohan vs. Perfect Cell :SSJ2 Gohan schooled Cell in speed.

Is this good enough?

Does it have numbers attached to them? If not, then no it isn't. The Culture is going to be fighting at speeds of tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands times c minimum. Can DBZ match that?

My arguments for high speed were made previously for Form 2 Freiza. Haven't made any calcs for above Freiza Saga yet, just that they are faster. I don't need exact numbers to do that. If you WANT exact numbers, I'll whip some up over Tanksgiving Break.

I hope you manage to present your sources better than you have.

During the 21st Tenkaichi Boduki, the 22nd Tenkaichi Boduki, the 23ed Tenkaichi Boduki, and the massive fight against the Saibamen, in all cases no one could see the actual fight.

As for how "fast" is? As I said, I have done calcs for Form 2 Freiza, and shown that other people are faster. That is ALL. As it stands, that looks like it will be enough.

Wrong, you've far from proven it. Concession accepted.

You know what, Yoda lifts a giant pillar and chucks it away using only his mind. That just violated a bunch of rules of physics right there. If you are going to argue that the DBZers don't toss around planet busters, I will argue that the Force does not Exist. For that matter, I will argue that Culture Technology also violates the rules of physics, and therefore does not exist.

Changing the rules in the middle of the game Fallacy. Are we already giving up the ghost and trying to invalidate everything?

The point is that if you refuse to apply scientific methods to analyzing DBZ the way other sci fi shows are, then don't bother claiming it can beat teh Culture (cuz you won't have any reliable calcs to prove it.) So either do the analysis and present your claims, or tell su now that DBZ can't be analyzed and concede your points.

[Connor MacLeod]

All right, I will admit it. Yes, Dragon Ball violates the laws of physics. Yes, what I claim for them to do would be impossible in the real world. Yes I admit that.

*Pauses to take a deep breath*

But so is 99.9999% of the stuff debated on this board!!

Yoda chucking a stone pillar with the force is ALSO impossible. Rand al Thor tossing around Balefire is ALSO impossible. Samus with her freeze beam is ALSO impossible. The Justice League and the X-men all violate uncountable laws of physics.

Dragon Ball violates laws of physics? NO FUCKING SHIT!!! Gee, give the man a cigar, Captain Obvious!!

What we debate is not what is possible for them to do, but what they can do. You see Yoda chucking a pillar with The Force, so we assume he can do that. We see Roshi blowing up the moon, we assume Roshi can do that as well. Later on, we see someone ten times as powerful, we assume he has ten times the firepower. Is it impossible? Of course, but no one cares. If impossible things bother you, then I suggest you find anothre hangout besides the science fiction forum.

Please read this and come to terms with what the "Changing the rules in the middle of the game" fallacy is:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... ing-2.html

Basically you are admitting your calcs are bullshit, and that you cannot prove they can match the Culture. Does thsi mean you're conceding? OR are you attempting to evade concession by dishonest debating tactics.

You can handle this one of two ways: Either accept the problems as presented and rationalize them, or concede that you dont have the proof and give up.

[Darth_Shinji]

All right, I will admit it. Yes, Dragon Ball violates the laws of physics. Yes, what I claim for them to do would be impossible in the real world. Yes I admit that.

*Pauses to take a deep breath*

But so is 99.9999% of the stuff debated on this board!!

Yoda chucking a stone pillar with the force is ALSO impossible. Rand al Thor tossing around Balefire is ALSO impossible. Samus with her freeze beam is ALSO impossible. The Justice League and the X-men all violate uncountable laws of physics.

Dragon Ball violates laws of physics? NO FUCKING SHIT!!! Gee, give the man a cigar, Captain Obvious!!

What we debate is not what is possible for them to do, but what they can do. You see Yoda chucking a pillar with The Force, so we assume he can do that. We see Roshi blowing up the moon, we assume Roshi can do that as well. Later on, we see someone ten times as powerful, we assume he has ten times the firepower. Is it impossible? Of course, but no one cares. If impossible things bother you, then I suggest you find anothre hangout besides the science fiction forum.

Calm down Yogi. Connor obviosly doesn't get the picture. The Culture itself is just as phyically immpossible. And counting the anime over the manga is stupid. According to him, he really is a hypocite to be debating this in the first place.

Connor there really is no point in debating in the sci-fi forum with a mindset like yours. I'm sure there is nothing in sci-fi that wouldn't break a phyical law or two.


Back on topic.... I'm going with the Culture for one reason and one reason along. Effectors. Otherwise there are pretty much even on speed and firepower.

[Yogi]

Which proves what, that the ground close to them shares the same protection they do against their own energies. Lets try something else - is there tangible proof that they can block or redirect energy at extended distances from their own person (IE protect say a 10 meter radius around the Z-fighter, including the ground or anyone on it.)

They seem to be able to shield their clothes pretty well As for your question, creating a "barrier" of Ki seems to be a specalized ability. I'm not sure how it is relavent, but no not everyone can do that.

Destroying the core of a planet will not scatter its mass. Only a massive influx of energy sufficient to eject mass at escape velocity will do so. The FACT this didnt happen instantly the minute Frieza fired the blast is proof that it cannot be quantified. The MECHANICS of the situation, no matter how you argue them, prevent it from being quantified in the same way the DS is. Just how difficult is this for you to understand?

You never stated anything about the attack. When you posed the argument, you said that it took 5 min to drill to the core. I said, "no, it was instentanious". You said it would not shatter the planet Death Star style. I said "I agree". Anything more on this topic?

If I am remembering the same attack (the slow moving one the Saiyans weren't able to dodge, that is.) It didn't destroy the planet very rapidly either, for that matter. I dont suppose you actually timed the incident?

The incident from "Bardock, Father of Goku" took a few seconds Anime time, I forget exactly how many. In the Manga, there is no basis for comparison. The attack is protrayed as slow moving, and Freiza never actually used it in battle except against Future Trunks.

That works too. But it still proves my point about the Z-fighters abilities being overrated.

What do you mean? A Z-fighter without his Ki is just a normal human (or saiya-jin). Then again, Yoda without the Force is a walking muppet, a wizard without his magic is a poor man's sage, and an ISD without any power is a very large paperweight. Your point?

You're missing the point. I'm using this as PROOF that Z-fighter abilities are overrated (IE the typical "they toss around planet killing energies so they would demolish any other universe easily." argument that is staple among the DBZ fanboys.).

I must have missed it, the proof part that is. How is the existance of a specialty attack prove anything? Rand al' Thor can be killed with one hit of balefire. tossed by Morraine. He is still an uber bad-ass.

Even accepting the notion that "speed is relative" how does this prove they will be able to match the fighting capabilities of the Culture? Reaction time is only a tiny part of it. I don't recall Z fighters ever tossing energy bolts at each other from light seconds, much less anything farther away. And I don't recall them moving at many thousands of times c regularly.

As for thousands of times c, that will take me a weekend to do quantitatively what I predict qualitatively. I'll get back to you on that.

On the range issue, however, the DBZers are clearly outranged.

Cite the source where you derive the 5 meter calc from (IE was this actually measured or just guessed) and where the .47c figure is derived from (specific source, and if its not a stated value, as how it is derived.)

Its only valid when you're presenting your proof for others to be able to evaluate and criticize. You may have noticed that people DO present quotes when asked for proof.

5 meters: Viz Graphic Novel Dragon Ball Z Volume 1 page 108. The blast looks like it's, oh, around 7 feet away. I used 5 meters as the absolute highest range it can go. If you want me to, I can post a scan (though it's a pain in the ass since I don't have a scanner, so I'll only do the scan if you want me to).

And I HAVE the derivation of .47 c on this thread. Read it.

This isn't quantitative proof. What you NEEd is an example where someone's power level increases, and we have measurable examples of their reaction times (or a suitable equivalent, say of someone of comparable capabilities) both before and after.

Simply reiterating the concept that someone who has more power fights better is not specific enough.

Goku vs. Vegeta. Using Kaio-ken at double power, Goku was being pounded by an opponent he could barely track. After he turned up the power to Kaio-ken at triple power, it was Vegeta's turn to fight someone he couldn't lay a finger on.

If you want to be anal retentive about it, yeah. Does he carry them around as Bruce Wayne (who is essentially Batman. I might remind you that in Batman beyond, when Shriek was driving Wayne mad, the reason Bruce cited as proof he KNEW he wasnt mad was because he doesn't call himself "bruce wayne" in his own mind..)

But of course, the point is that your side has presented a remarkable lack of quantitative proof, and what little you did still has unsupported variables attached. Beyond which you're attempting to vacillate between DBZ being quantifiable and not being so - attempting to dodge potential contradictions to your claims. If you havent noticed, you're faring badly.

Actually, I am saying that you ask me to "prove" things which are obvious to anyone who has, oh I don't know, WATCHED the show?

Already have. What you have isn't even low end, its guesstimate until you've quantified it better.

I've quantified it all it needs to be. ALL I have done is to provide low end calcs for Form Two Freiza. Those have been quantified.

Speaking of the Manga, you have not proven that it rates higher than the anime btw. I want a canon policy for DBZ, now. Otherwise I have no reason to take your word that the manga is higher canon.

A Breif summery of Dragon Ball.
First, there was the Original Dragonball Manga penned by Akira Toriyama. This is the Original Source, and the King of cannoninity.

Second, there was the Anime based off it. Called Dragonball and Dragonball Z, these shows attempt to re-create the manga. They do a BAD JOB of it because
1) They insert extra scenes to fill space. In the Manga, Goku said he needed ten seconds to gather a Spirit Bomb against Vegeta. In the Anime it takes a LOT longer.
2) They animate the action in implied real time. This is unavoidable.

Third, there are the Dragonball/Dragonball Z movies as well as Dragonball GT. These are purely from the minds of the people at Toei Animation. They are NOT cannon at all.

Then there is the Americian versions.

The Manga translation is extremely accurate. It suffers from an at times too literal translation of names, but otherwise is a good source of information.

The Anime translation is HORRID. For a partial list of mistranslations and general fuck-ups go to http://dbzuncensored.dbzoa.net/

Can Z fighters fight over FTL distances - say light minutes or light hours? Because they better if they hope to engage a Culture Warship.

I'm actually not sure. Considering how long it took Goku to cross Snake Way, and that Cross Country travel seems to be slow, probably not. That's why I said the only being that has a chance is Everyone-buu

This tells us little about the actual speed. Moving faster than the eye can see need not require FTL speeds or even nearly relatavistic speeds (bullets move faster than the eye can see, for that matter.)

I suppose if I wanted to be anal retentive about it, I could ask just HOW this fast movement works, and how they bypass inertia and just where the Kinetic energy they build up goes.

What this DOES prove is that the however fast they're going, you can't use the Anime to decide. Besides, HOW they do it doesn't matter. You probably have very little understanding of Culture tech yourself. What matters is that they DO do it.

Its still applicable in sci fi analysis. Thats the foundation sites like SD.net and SWTC are based on, if you haven't noticed.

I observe, I collect whatever data I can, I formulate hypothesis. I just can't experiment on it.

Does it have numbers attached to them? If not, then no it isn't. The Culture is going to be fighting at speeds of tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands times c minimum. Can DBZ match that?

I told you I don't have numbers yet, but I wil have some this weekend. You asked me to prove that increased power = increased speed. That was all I did.

I only respond to the questions YOU ask. The fact that it doesn't adress the larger issue is not my concern. I already said, I don't have high level calcs yet, wait until this weekend since I need time to do them.

Wrong, you've far from proven it. Concession accepted.

Which part of "I'm busy, wait until the weekend" do you not understand? I actually have things to do besides crunch numbers to for Dragonball characters.

Changing the rules in the middle of the game Fallacy. Are we already giving up the ghost and trying to invalidate everything?

The point is that if you refuse to apply scientific methods to analyzing DBZ the way other sci fi shows are, then don't bother claiming it can beat teh Culture (cuz you won't have any reliable calcs to prove it.) So either do the analysis and present your claims, or tell su now that DBZ can't be analyzed and concede your points.

All right, here's the deal.

I don't care HOW they do it, I don't care if it's POSSIBLE to do it, I don't care if it violates half the rules of physics, all the rules of physics, or none of the rules of physics.

All that matters, is that it happens.

I'm saying "If Guy A can do ability A', then Guy B who is Q times as powerful can to a feat equivalent of A' * Q"

You're saying "Feats A' and A' * Q violate the laws of physics."

I say "I don't care. It happens anyway."

Now time to do a little "Bait and switch" Please rattle off a long list of the rules of physics that the culture breaks.

[consequences]

Now time to do a little "Bait and switch" Please rattle off a long list of the rules of physics that the culture breaks.

Approximately none of them, they draw upon a source of energy that has yet to be proven or disproven, and is internally consistent. They don't claim to move absurd multiples of lightspeed in normal space, and they don't get more results than the energy they put into something.
The only way you can get the Z fighters to obey Conservation of Energy is to have them using a "hyperspace tap" for the source of their energy, which can be strained if used for too long or at too high a level. This is the only theory I have come up with that even remotely fits the available evidence, specifically, that a Senzu bean can apparently provide a level of energy sufficient to obliterate planets. In this case, the bean wouldn't provide energy so much as restore a muscle's condition. BTW, if I see anyone using this theory without my permission, things will go badly for you.

[Yogi]

Re: consequences
I read somewhere that DBZ-users probably work by bending space using gravity. Notice that
1) Whenever they powerer up, objects get either lifted up, of sunk down, both effects of gravity.
2) Extreme gravity can distort time, causing them to move faster.
3) The Ki blasts they fire are localized distortions in space/time.
4) The Ki aura around them are also space-time distortions that protect them. Hence why their clothes seem to survive a fight (otherwise known as the "Hulk's Pants Syndrome"

I did not think this up, someone else did.

Re: Connor
You seem to be under the impression that I think that DBZ will beat the Culture. If you read the thread, you'll notice that all I've ever said was.
1) That particular culture tactic may not work since the DBZ-team can do *this*.
2) No, it is not fanboy fantasy, the DBZers really CAN do *this*.

I did not argue that DBZ would win, mainly because I know littleabout the Culture (why do you think I asked you to dig up all that information). As it stands now, I think that the inability of the DBZers to target at long ranges will cause them to loose since frankly, there's only so many galaxies that Buu can destroy before he runs out of energy. If you're satisfied with that, then let's call it a day.

And before you crow "concession accepted", please note that I can't concede a point that I never made in the first place.

[Yogi]

I DO however stand by my original point, that DBZers zip around at multitudes of light speed and toss around Planet Busters like candy.

[consequences]

That seems more than vaguely plausible, I'd like to get an educated opinion on it though. In any case, its not my theory, so have fun, although it doesn't seem to be the operating principle you're working with.

[SPOOFE]

MEANING, that using the Dubbed Anime as evidence for Dragonball is around as accurate as using the Star Wars Managa (actually released in Japan, so I've heard) as evidence for Star Wars. Sure they're both accurate, to a very loose extent. However, they suck at specifics.

Irrelevent. People point out the instances in Star Wars that go contrary to reality (for example, sound in space). For some others - such as FTL travel - there's an internally consistent fictional mechanism to account for this.

See, it's not so much the "jiving with real physics" that's the niggle to the problem as it is "internally consistent". DBZ, frankly, is not, and that is why its observations are poor evidence.

Furthemore, I will note that you are falling victim to the classic fallacious idea that one example of an extraordinary power implies similarly extraordinary powers for all other possibilities... for example, your claim that since one DBZ-er is capable of teleporting "anywhere", all of them can do it.

Around as possible as it is for Star Wars. In other words, no.

As has been demonstrated, there's a marked difference 'tween the two. As such, your claim is a simple "He did it first!"... an immature debating tactic with no real substance.

However, it is nice to see you admit that your claims about DBZ are utterly without merit. I trust we can consider this debate concluded, then?

[Neko_Oni]

Extreme gravity can distort time, causing them to move faster

Extreme gravity causes time to slow down relative to people in areas of less distortion.

[consequences]

And If I remember correctly now, gravitic effects take more energy to generate than using most other mechanisms.

[Yogi]

The Province of NO Need for Tenchi (1:1)
[http://www.UtopiaTemple.com Angel v1.38 Beta 2]

Utopian Date: March 11th, YR5
RL Date: November 28th, 2002 (16:00 GMT)

Ruler Name: Lady Funaho the Rogue
Personality & Race: The Rogue, Faery
Land: 656 Acres
Money: 558,415gc (15,439gc raw daily income)
Food: 47,974 bushels
Runes: 3,158 runes
Population: 18,219 citizens (27.77 per Acre)
Peasants: 6,433 (100% Employed)
Happy: b:97%, t:3.0gc, p:102%, m:100%
Trade Balance: -82,632gc (0% tax rate)
Networth: 91,456 (139.41 per Acre)
Thieves+Wizards+Science Networth: 20,481gc

Soldiers: 635 (59% estimated draft rate)
Swordsmen: 0
Magicians: 7,042 (28,168 defense points)
Beastmasters: 978 (3,912 offense / 5,868 defense)
War-Horses: 0

Irrelevent. People point out the instances in Star Wars that go contrary to reality (for example, sound in space). For some others - such as FTL travel - there's an internally consistent fictional mechanism to account for this.

See, it's not so much the "jiving with real physics" that's the niggle to the problem as it is "internally consistent". DBZ, frankly, is not, and that is why its observations are poor evidence.

Furthemore, I will note that you are falling victim to the classic fallacious idea that one example of an extraordinary power implies similarly extraordinary powers for all other possibilities... for example, your claim that since one DBZ-er is capable of teleporting "anywhere", all of them can do it.

First, the Internaly Consistant part was adressed with my discussion on Cannoninity, demonstrating why the Anime should be discarded, because it is NOT internaly consistant. The Manga is.

Furthurmore. I did NOT claim that all DBZers could teleport. In fact, I stated that only Buu wold be able to teleport (and Goku, but none of the Z-fighters can survive in space except for the Androids, who aren't on the top of the "food chain" in DBZ.

As has been demonstrated, there's a marked difference 'tween the two. As such, your claim is a simple "He did it first!"... an immature debating tactic with no real substance.

Not at all. I'm just taking the SAME standard of proof you apply to Star Wars, and applying it to DBZ. In Star Wars, you assume that if one ISD is able to blow away an asteroid with one hit, then all of them must be able to do similar feats. In DBZ I say that if Muten Roshi can blow up the moon, then other people who are able to wipe the floor with Muten Roshi must be able to do the same.

However, it is nice to see you admit that your claims about DBZ are utterly without merit. I trust we can consider this debate concluded, then?

Not at all. I said that DBZ would not be able to defeat the culture because they cannot target across light-minuet intervals. All my other claims still hold true.

[Yogi]

Shit. Accidentally posted my Utopia stats. Mod please?

[Yogi]

All right, some more figures.

First, proof that Power & PL is proportional. Goku was stated at 8,000. In his base form, he was getting his ass handed to him. When doubling his power he was barely keeping alive, and at tripling his power, he was kicking Vegeta around. Note that this PERFECTLY correlated with proportional scouter readings. At base (8,000 vs. 18,000) he would be getting kicked around, at double power (16,000 vs. 18,000) he would barely be alive, and at triple power (24,000 vs. 18,000) he would dominate. In addition, Bulma stated that his power was going rapidly from a figure below 17,000 to something above 21,000 (before the scouter exploded).

Also, when he declared Kaiou-Ken against Capt. Ginyu, when Ginyu put on his scouter, Goku’s PL was 90,000. When he finished powering, it was 180,000. Again, a neatly doubling figure.

Now for Punches vs. Ki Blasts

Nappa's PL when fighting the Z-warriors was somewhere between 5,000 and 8,000. When Goku was read at 5,000 Nappa thought he could still handle it, but with a bit of trouble. When Goku jumped to 8,000 Nappa got scared.

Gohan bossted his PL to 2,800 to throw a Masenko at Nappa. Nappa PUNCHED the blast away with one hand. He said it stung, so the powers of the two attacks are probably even. That means that a punch is weaker than a ki attack. With Nappa’s uncertain PL, it could be anywhere from 56%of a ki attack, or 35% of a ki attack. Radditz was able to take off one of Piccolo’s arms with a ki blast while Piccolo was taking his punches, suggesting the 35% figure. Also, Nappa was able to hold his own against Goku once he calmed down, suggesting he had a high power level, again suggesting the 35% figure.

So now, how much power is needed to nuke a moon?

Muten Roshi’s base PL level is 139. However, when he used the Kamehameha, he probably boosted his PL to accomplish that feat. Goku against Radditz was able to boost his PL from 416 to 924, a factor of 2.22. Muten Roshi would then probably have been able to boost his PL to 309. Later we see Piccolo with 329 PL destroying the moon again WITHOUT any boosting, he just reached out his hand and fired.

So, 309 PL is needed to destroy the Moon. Since the moon in .0123 times the mass of the Earth, then it must require 25,100 PL to nuke the Earth. Since Vegeta was only at 18,000 PL, it’s time for you all to throw the entire thing out of the window right?

Ah, but you forget, 18,000 was his stated base power. He was clearly boosting it with his attack (if you can’t tell when someone is charging for an attack, you need to read more Dragonball) furthermore, Goku was countering with a Kaiou-Ken x3. That should put Goku’s power at 24,000. However, Goku was boosting his Ki as well. Using the previous calc of 2.22, his boosted power would be at 53,280. However, it should be noted that Goku took massive damage preciously, and so may not have been at his best. Also, Goku stated the he would have to gamble on it, placing his Kaiou-Ken PL closer to Vegeta’s. Therefore, the floor of his Kaiou-Ken x3 Kamehameha would be 40,000. This blast was dead even with Vegeta’s Galic-hou, the attack designed to destroy the Earth. It is EASILY enough power to do so.

Punches and Planet Destroying blasts.

So a ki blast from someone with 25,100 PL can nuke a planet. Punches are 35% the power of ki blasts. Therefore, a person with 71,400 PL can punch with enough force to destroy the planet. While the physics involved might prevent the planet from actually being destroyed, they can at least punch away planet destroying blasts.

Now, for the Greatest Pain of All, the PL Chart.

Coming soon, after I catch up on my Anime.

[Connor MacLeod]

Calm down Yogi. Connor obviosly doesn't get the picture. The Culture itself is just as phyically immpossible. And counting the anime over the manga is stupid. According to him, he really is a hypocite to be debating this in the first place.

Thank you for that arrogant analysis of my position, as well as the Ad Hominem attack that comprises it. Not to mention further demonstrating the "Changing the rules in the middle of the game" fallacy.

Care to go for some others?

Connor there really is no point in debating in the sci-fi forum with a mindset like yours. I'm sure there is nothing in sci-fi that wouldn't break a phyical law or two.

Again, Ad Hominem. Care to add anything substantial to the discussion, or are you going to maybe toss in a strawman or two?

[Connor MacLeod]

They seem to be able to shield their clothes pretty well As for your question, creating a "barrier" of Ki seems to be a specalized ability. I'm not sure how it is relavent, but no not everyone can do that.

Shielding their clothes falls under the same principle as "protecting their immediate area." You can argue this ability indicates they can protect a very short radius around themselves - but can they extend that protection or project it over large distances? OR is this an intrinsic "defense" inherent to themselves (perhaps extending a short bit around themselves.)

Anyhow, so they CAN create extended barriers to shield against energy? What is the largest distance/area shielded? Has Roshi demonstrated this ability?

You never stated anything about the attack. When you posed the argument, you said that it took 5 min to drill to the core. I said, "no, it was instentanious". You said it would not shatter the planet Death Star style. I said "I agree". Anything more on this topic?

Ok. Then I missed teh agreement. Thank you for the correction on the Frieza scene, and I apologize for not seeing the agreement earlier.

I don't dispute that Frieza destroyed the planet (if I gave that impression I apologize) but I am disputing that this is accomplished through direct-energy transfer. The destruction of the planet must occur through some other means (as how phasers and ST propulsion use "cheats" to achieve their effects.) This only means its not quantifiable, not that it didn't occur.
(this is largely my contention - many of the "examples" DBZ'ers toss out aren't quantifiable in the way they attempt,

If you wanted to try quantifying Frieza's attack, try measuring what it did to penetrate TO the crust of the planet (IE the energy it took, how long it took, etc.) That MIGHT yield a quantifiable value.

The incident from "Bardock, Father of Goku" took a few seconds Anime time, I forget exactly how many. In the Manga, there is no basis for comparison. The attack is protrayed as slow moving, and Freiza never actually used it in battle except against Future Trunks.

"Anime time?" What is that, and how does it measure to a timeframe WE can measure.

What do you mean? A Z-fighter without his Ki is just a normal human (or saiya-jin). Then again, Yoda without the Force is a walking muppet, a wizard without his magic is a poor man's sage, and an ISD without any power is a very large paperweight. Your point?

My original contention was that DBZ'ersr typically equate "planet destroying" capabilities with typical observed capabilities in debates, when the observed capabilities tend to be far less energetic. The examples prove that despite the upper levels of capability (destroying planets, or possibly galaxies) they typically ARE harmed/affected by far less energetic attacks.

If you agreed with this and I missed it, again I apologize and conclude the argument.

I must have missed it, the proof part that is. How is the existance of a specialty attack prove anything? Rand al' Thor can be killed with one hit of balefire. tossed by Morraine. He is still an uber bad-ass.

Balefire isn't a quantifiable example. It uses a "trick" (erasing the thread that involves the target or things the target influences) to cause its effects.

Krillin's "discs" have an observable effect and to an extent can be measured (we see them slice through mountains - which may indicate melting/vaporization/shattering along the point of impact.) - we can to an extent quantify this.

My definition of "overrated" defines that in debates involving DBZ, its typically assumed that because they destroy planets, Z fighters must be tossing around energy levels suffiicent to shatter a whole planet (or a substantial portion of this energy.) and that they defend against this. Yet most observed combats would not support this contention - if you dont understand what I mean, look up a debate on Star Trek DS9's "The Die is Cast" and how Trekkie firepower calcs from the incident are contradicted by the visuals. Many of the same problems apply in the typical "upper limit" arguments tossed around by DBZ'ers I've seen.

As for thousands of times c, that will take me a weekend to do quantitatively what I predict qualitatively. I'll get back to you on that.

Ok, although as you pointed out you never argued they COULD take on the Culture IIRC, so I withdraw the accusation. You don't have to prove what you didn't claim.

5 meters: Viz Graphic Novel Dragon Ball Z Volume 1 page 108. The blast looks like it's, oh, around 7 feet away. I used 5 meters as the absolute highest range it can go. If you want me to, I can post a scan (though it's a pain in the ass since I don't have a scanner, so I'll only do the scan if you want me to).

Scan it. IT sounds like an estimate. I might point out that 7 feet is 84 inches, and that a meter is bout 39.4 inches (IIRC). We're actually looking at slightly more than 2 meters (2.2 meters rounded up.)

And I HAVE the derivation of .47 c on this thread. Read it.

Ok. I'll try to find it and comment on it separately.

Goku vs. Vegeta. Using Kaio-ken at double power, Goku was being pounded by an opponent he could barely track. After he turned up the power to Kaio-ken at triple power, it was Vegeta's turn to fight someone he couldn't lay a finger on.

Do we have numbers on the capabilities observed before and after Goku used Kaio-Ken? That's the other requirement, remember. Simply pointing out that "Goku had trouble with VEgeta before Kaio-Ken but not after" leaves too broad a range of variables.

Actually, I am saying that you ask me to "prove" things which are obvious to anyone who has, oh I don't know, WATCHED the show?

Yes, I hve watched it. But its not going to be "obvious" except as an opinion or impression ("wow, they blew up a planet, that must mean they're powerful.") There's a difference between opinion of capabilities and analysis of capabilities.

Besides which, what's going to be "obvious?" You've got hundreds of hours of visual data to assimilate - its rather hard to have anything "obvious" about that. I can point out one thing of course - its "obvious" that they typically don't throw around tremendous energies (tremendous relative to the Culture, at least.) Since they typically aren't depopulating whole planets as a side effect of a battle (either energy released/deflected by punches or energy attacks, missed attacks, etc.)

I've quantified it all it needs to be. ALL I have done is to provide low end calcs for Form Two Freiza. Those have been quantified.

No, you haven't. You've stated alot of power levels and made some vague generalizations about "before" and "after" effects. That's not the same thing as providing numbers through analysis. You've only provided ONE actual quantification, but it uses at least one guesstimated variable.

And on top of that, you've been ranting about how it "can't" be analyzed, thereby committing a "changing the rules in the middle of the game" fallacy. Am I to believe you're conceding because DBZ isn't quantifiable?

A Breif summery of Dragon Ball.
First, there was the Original Dragonball Manga penned by Akira Toriyama. This is the Original Source, and the King of cannoninity.

Second, there was the Anime based off it. Called Dragonball and Dragonball Z, these shows attempt to re-create the manga. They do a BAD JOB of it because
1) They insert extra scenes to fill space. In the Manga, Goku said he needed ten seconds to gather a Spirit Bomb against Vegeta. In the Anime it takes a LOT longer.
2) They animate the action in implied real time. This is unavoidable.

Third, there are the Dragonball/Dragonball Z movies as well as Dragonball GT. These are purely from the minds of the people at Toei Animation. They are NOT cannon at all.

Then there is the Americian versions.

The Manga translation is extremely accurate. It suffers from an at times too literal translation of names, but otherwise is a good source of information.

The Anime translation is HORRID. For a partial list of mistranslations and general fuck-ups go to http://dbzuncensored.dbzoa.net/

I'm not sure this is what I asked for. I'm asking for an OFFICIAL canon policy. Liek what PAramount lays down for Star Trek, or what LFL lays down for Star Wars.

I'm actually not sure. Considering how long it took Goku to cross Snake Way, and that Cross Country travel seems to be slow, probably not. That's why I said the only being that has a chance is Everyone-buu

Can Buu fight at FTL speeds over large distances?

What this DOES prove is that the however fast they're going, you can't use the Anime to decide. Besides, HOW they do it doesn't matter. You probably have very little understanding of Culture tech yourself. What matters is that they DO do it.

So you're committing the "changing the rules" fallacy again? Or are you going to attempt analyzing it. You seem to be changing your mind an awful lot about this. "understanding" of how the Culture achieves its effects isn't neccesary to quantifying observed effects. We know squat about how TLs work, or superlasers, or phasers, or warp drives, etc.. yet we can STILL observe their effects and abilities, and measure them to varying degrees.

Keep in mind that if you decide to toss out the anime, you have already said that there is littel way to determine timeframes in the manga, so you're basically shooting yourself in the foot for analysis purposes.

[quoteI observe, I collect whatever data I can, I formulate hypothesis. I just can't experiment on it.
[/quote]

Which makes no difference. Its possible to analyze, so if you are going to quantify the abilities, analyze it.

]I told you I don't have numbers yet, but I wil have some this weekend. You asked me to prove that increased power = increased speed. That was all I did.

You mean the Frieze/Radditz analysis? We're still in the process of verifying the numbers.

[quotes]
I only respond to the questions YOU ask. The fact that it doesn't adress the larger issue is not my concern. I already said, I don't have high level calcs yet, wait until this weekend since I need time to do them.
[/quote]

Fine.

Which part of "I'm busy, wait until the weekend" do you not understand? I actually have things to do besides crunch numbers to for Dragonball characters.

So you're taking back the "DBZ cant' be quantified" claim?

All right, here's the deal.

I don't care HOW they do it, I don't care if it's POSSIBLE to do it, I don't care if it violates half the rules of physics, all the rules of physics, or none of the rules of physics.

All that matters, is that it happens.

I'm saying "If Guy A can do ability A', then Guy B who is Q times as powerful can to a feat equivalent of A' * Q"

You're saying "Feats A' and A' * Q violate the laws of physics."

I say "I don't care. It happens anyway."

Now time to do a little "Bait and switch" Please rattle off a long list of the rules of physics that the culture breaks.

Wrong. I'm pointing out that the WAY they do things violates certain principles. They can do things like destroy planets, but its obvious they aren't in the same fashion the Death STar does (the latter is quantifiable because the observed effects do not contradict known scientific principles or laws. The same cannot be as easily said for DBZ. This is no different than how TDIC is argued or handled regarding Trekkie's attempts to calculate it, and it has nothing to do with "breaking the laws of physics."

[Connor MacLeod]

Re: Connor
You seem to be under the impression that I think that DBZ will beat the Culture. If you read the thread, you'll notice that all I've ever said was.
1) That particular culture tactic may not work since the DBZ-team can do *this*.
2) No, it is not fanboy fantasy, the DBZers really CAN do *this*.

Then I retract my accusations regarding the claim that you think DBZ can beat the Culture. However, this does not change my other point regarding the exaggerated capabilities (exaggerated in the sense that they put out DS-level energies or such typically) - the observed energy outputs in the majority of combats are FAR lower than PK or even planet-destroying requirements.

Doing it is one thing, doing it in a quantifiable manner is different.

I did not argue that DBZ would win, mainly because I know littleabout the Culture (why do you think I asked you to dig up all that information). As it stands now, I think that the inability of the DBZers to target at long ranges will cause them to loose since frankly, there's only so many galaxies that Buu can destroy before he runs out of energy. If you're satisfied with that, then let's call it a day.

I'm pointing out that its just more than range. I'm also pointing out that as it stands, they don't toss around planet shattering energies. If they destroy planets and moons - they do so by methods other than direct energy transfer. I'm also pointing out their toughness is far lower than "planet shattering/killing" energies as well. The other aspects (FTL speeds, propogation rates for weapons, etc.) are still debatable as well.

And before you crow "concession accepted", please note that I can't concede a point that I never made in the first place.

Which I have acknowledged was an error on my part, and withdrawn the accusation.

[Connor MacLeod]

All right, some more figures.

First, proof that Power & PL is proportional. Goku was stated at 8,000. In his base form, he was getting his ass handed to him. When doubling his power he was barely keeping alive, and at tripling his power, he was kicking Vegeta around. Note that this PERFECTLY correlated with proportional scouter readings. At base (8,000 vs. 18,000) he would be getting kicked around, at double power (16,000 vs. 18,000) he would barely be alive, and at triple power (24,000 vs. 18,000) he would dominate. In addition, Bulma stated that his power was going rapidly from a figure below 17,000 to something above 21,000 (before the scouter exploded).

We have power levels. Do we have measurements of their speed/reactions/etc. in the incident itself?

Also, when he declared Kaiou-Ken against Capt. Ginyu, when Ginyu put on his scouter, Goku’s PL was 90,000. When he finished powering, it was 180,000. Again, a neatly doubling figure.

Again, we have power levels, but no numbers for the actual actions (like speed or reactions.) in this instance.

Now for Punches vs. Ki Blasts

Nappa's PL when fighting the Z-warriors was somewhere between 5,000 and 8,000. When Goku was read at 5,000 Nappa thought he could still handle it, but with a bit of trouble. When Goku jumped to 8,000 Nappa got scared.

Gohan bossted his PL to 2,800 to throw a Masenko at Nappa. Nappa PUNCHED the blast away with one hand. He said it stung, so the powers of the two attacks are probably even. That means that a punch is weaker than a ki attack. With Nappa’s uncertain PL, it could be anywhere from 56%of a ki attack, or 35% of a ki attack. Radditz was able to take off one of Piccolo’s arms with a ki blast while Piccolo was taking his punches, suggesting the 35% figure. Also, Nappa was able to hold his own against Goku once he calmed down, suggesting he had a high power level, again suggesting the 35% figure.

I suppose this sounds reasonable, at least so far.

So now, how much power is needed to nuke a moon?

Muten Roshi’s base PL level is 139. However, when he used the Kamehameha, he probably boosted his PL to accomplish that feat. Goku against Radditz was able to boost his PL from 416 to 924, a factor of 2.22. Muten Roshi would then probably have been able to boost his PL to 309. Later we see Piccolo with 329 PL destroying the moon again WITHOUT any boosting, he just reached out his hand and fired.

So, 309 PL is needed to destroy the Moon. Since the moon in .0123 times the mass of the Earth, then it must require 25,100 PL to nuke the Earth. Since Vegeta was only at 18,000 PL, it’s time for you all to throw the entire thing out of the window right?

Ah, but you forget, 18,000 was his stated base power. He was clearly boosting it with his attack (if you can’t tell when someone is charging for an attack, you need to read more Dragonball) furthermore, Goku was countering with a Kaiou-Ken x3. That should put Goku’s power at 24,000. However, Goku was boosting his Ki as well. Using the previous calc of 2.22, his boosted power would be at 53,280. However, it should be noted that Goku took massive damage preciously, and so may not have been at his best. Also, Goku stated the he would have to gamble on it, placing his Kaiou-Ken PL closer to Vegeta’s. Therefore, the floor of his Kaiou-Ken x3 Kamehameha would be 40,000. This blast was dead even with Vegeta’s Galic-hou, the attack designed to destroy the Earth. It is EASILY enough power to do so.

Ok, this SEEMS to work rfor the most part so far (at least as a measure of potential capability - not neccesarily an upper limit...)

Is "boosting" a temporary measure? And how long can it be sustained?

Punches and Planet Destroying blasts.

So a ki blast from someone with 25,100 PL can nuke a planet. Punches are 35% the power of ki blasts. Therefore, a person with 71,400 PL can punch with enough force to destroy the planet. While the physics involved might prevent the planet from actually being destroyed, they can at least punch away planet destroying blasts.

Now, for the Greatest Pain of All, the PL Chart.

Coming soon, after I catch up on my Anime.

Much better, but there are still problems.

First, we're still assuming they can destroy planets DS-style (IE that they can generate an actual energy level to overcome the gravitaitonal binding energy of the planet.) AS I recall this is still in contention. Same with Roshi and the moon.

Which might set an upper limit for the energy put into a punch. OF course, punching a planet with that much energy could very possibly destroy a Z-fighter unless they are able to shield against that muich energy. Which then becomes the next question - can they shield themselves against this effect, and do we know how long they can do so.

Also, its to be noted that in TYPICAL observed battles, they do not toss around energy levels even REMOTELY as high as this. Energy has to go somewhere in a battle, and if they tossed around 1/3 the energy required to destroy a planet, odds are they'd be inflicting a mass-extinction event. Typical energy blasts appear closer in effect to modern nukes, but are definitely below any thresholds where significant changes in the enviroment would be observed (including partial or total mass extinction events, changes in climate, ash or debris in the atmosphere, etc.) This also must be taken into account with regard to the "higher" level abilities.

Assuming we grant all this, it seems that its POSSIBLE for them to temporarily augment their abilities to the point they can destroy planets. As I said, its a potential measure.