Clone trooper strength and production questions

[Ender]

When Dooku escapes we see some ships already in space, I thought there was a small battle happening the whole time mentioned somewhere.

According to the AOTC novel, "thousands" of Republic ships were attacking the CIS fleet

I don't recall the novel saying "thousands" Got a page numbert on that?

Not handy. It's right after the evacuation of the arena, it says Mace looked up and saw thousands of ships deploying clones and engaging the fleet. Later when Dooku flees it talks about the carriers getting hammered by the fleet.

Presumably Mace is using seeing in the same sense that Yoda watched Luke (used the Force).

That or we have 2000+ star dreadnaughts mixing it up with the converted freighters.

[Rommie2006]

Apparently this is being exnayed in the future by LFL. I believe Ender found something contextually suggesting the 1.2 million referred to a particular type of clones. Anyhow, its quite clear that all the current clones are produced post the original 1.2 million due to the different breeds and armor and the fact Clone Commanders are introduced late in the war. There's obviously more than 1.2 million individual clone soldiers.

I agree with your analysis.

Do you remember where Ender posted his findings?

I didn't, it was Emailed

Long and short of it:

AOTC movie: we see something like 60,000+ troops in the landing field or lifting off in aclamators (i'd have to check my notes). You don't bring most of your well provisioned and armed army back from a position behind enemy lines to show them off, and then try and force your way back through a fortified front (fortified per shatterpoint).
AOTC novel: Obi wan's opinion only is 1 unit 1 clone.
Clone wars season 1: 32 aclamators deployed for a single battle, so they committed 512,000 clones to a single battle for a minor planet. 1.2 mil just don't work.
Shatterpoint: Mace says 1.2 mil clones like Jango (or some such, novel not handy). But Mace is on a snatch and grab commando mission, and thus far has only led commandos (AOTC), so he might be referring to 1.2 ARCs.
Cestus Deception: Obi wan says the ARC is one of 1.2 million, affirming my 1.2 mil arcs joke (this is when I began looking hard at it)
Hard Target: Said to be deploying millions of clones on hundreds of worlds 3 months post geonosis. Bam baby. Also resolves the hiding and feeding of trillions with Kamino's limited resources question by saying clones are put in suspended animation between tours.
Jedi Trial: Two more generations are expected in months. Clearly this is sped up.
Labrinth of Evil: 1.2 mil repeated, but again towards a group of ARCs.

1.2 million is arc troopers. We have quintillions of regular schmucks.

Ok quintillions of clone troopers makes sense in a galactic-wide republic.
But back to my original question, how did they breed so many clones? What's the production of clones each day? And was Kamino the only clone-production planet?

[Crown]

Do you remember where Ender posted his findings?

I didn't, it was Emailed

Long and short of it:<snip>
1.2 million is arc troopers. We have quintillions of regular schmucks.

Gets a happy

Thanks bud, that was awesome!

[Connor MacLeod]

Not handy. It's right after the evacuation of the arena, it says Mace looked up and saw thousands of ships deploying clones and engaging the fleet. Later when Dooku flees it talks about the carriers getting hammered by the fleet.

Presumably Mace is using seeing in the same sense that Yoda watched Luke (used the Force).

That or we have 2000+ star dreadnaughts mixing it up with the converted freighters.

Its just a guess on his part (he's looking up, after all, not actually in a position to get an absolute accurate estimate) - there might have only been hundreds (close to 1000 probably.. there were only what, 12 Acclamators landing there according to ITW:AOTC) I rather doubt this refers to large capital ships since I doubt they had combat starships landing to deploy troops or that they were deploying troops from orbit.

[Connor MacLeod]

Incidentally, the ITW:AOTC book says the Trade Federation core ships weren't armed, so thats presumably why the Core ships at Geonosis didn't fire on the clone troopers with point defense guns.

So, the core ships were on the ground in part because they were going to be upgraded to the armament listed in AOTC:ICS, but this upgrade had not yet taken place as of the battle?

It will be interesting to see if the core ships in ROTS use point-defense guns...

No, I assume they simply weren't armed, period. There's no reason to believe that every single core ship HAS to be armed just because the ICS says so (if they can ADD the armaments, they can presumably remove them too, since the armaments were presumably not apartt of the original design. I do believe AOTC:ICS actually infers this too.)

[Connor MacLeod]

AOTC novel: Obi wan's opinion only is 1 unit 1 clone.

But at this point there's nothing against Obi-Wan/Mace's conclusion (and it assumes he has no corresponding knowledge to base this off of. I don't recall his entire visit to Kamino between arrival and his discussion with the Council as being a single, uncut scene either.)

Besides which, ITW:AOTC reinforces the 1:1 ratio by referring to "200,000 clones" being ready. It also says there are "millions more" apparently in the last stages of preparation before deployment (something to do with performance evaluations, IIRC.)

Basically in other words they starrt out with 1.2 million (200,000 actually are completed, another million "on the way" ) and "millions" more from facilities across the planet undergoing final preparations. By the time of Hard Contact, they presumably have already been deployed.

Clone wars season 1: 32 aclamators deployed for a single battle, so they committed 512,000 clones to a single battle for a minor planet. 1.2 mil just don't work.

I don't recall how far into the War the battle for Muunilist was - I think it was after "Hard Contact" though, so at this point we're seeing the "millions" of clones coming into play.

Shatterpoint: Mace says 1.2 mil clones like Jango (or some such, novel not handy). But Mace is on a snatch and grab commando mission, and thus far has only led commandos (AOTC), so he might be referring to 1.2 ARCs.

He also at some points makes the "one clone for one planet" comment, which can yield millions to billions of clones depending on how many "planets" you acsribe to the Republic (and whether you use member states, protectorates/dependencies, or barren worlds.)

Cestus Deception: Obi wan says the ARC is one of 1.2 million, affirming my 1.2 mil arcs joke (this is when I began looking hard at it)

Got a page number? I remember ratios being mentioned (there are ratios in Hard Contact IIRC), but I recall nothing that concrete.

Jedi Trial: Two more generations are expected in months. Clearly this is sped up.

Again, got a page number?

Labrinth of Evil: 1.2 mil repeated, but again towards a group of ARCs.

Again, page number?

1.2 million is arc troopers. We have quintillions of regular schmucks.

Er, quintillions?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Not all that unreasonable; after all there are quintillions of engineers at the beginning of the Republic (AOTC: ICS), and there are quintillions of battle droids IIRC (ROTS: ICS).

Saxton's "reasonable" estimates are in the several quadrillion for the population of Coruscant, and there are many such words, especially in the Galactic Core: Humbarine, Denon, Grizmalt, etc.

[President Sharky]

The "quintillions of engineers" quote refers to the quintillions of engineers throughout the history of the galaxy, not at one specific point.

It is reasonable to assume that the Kamino facilities were refitted with the new Spaarti cloning cylinders developed by the Republic about a year into the war, and that clone production reved up significantly after this point. Furthermore, a number of sources have stated that the Republic had "millions" of clones at least by the third month of the Clone Wars (the time of Hard Contact). These numbers likely increased dramatically with the Spaarti technology, quickening the introduction of the 2nd and 3rd generation clones (referred to in Labyrinth of Evil). What exactly constitutes a "generation" is unknown, but I suspect is means a group of clone "batches" (perhaps meaning a batallion or corps) delivered over a period of time, perhaps a year.

There is, however, no indication of there being "quintillions" of clone troopers, and I believe that may just be wishful thinking on the thoughts of some. Hundreds of millions or perhaps even a few billion is a much more probable number based on current sources. The majority of the war effort, such as planetary occupation and the defence of low priority worlds, would have had to be taken by local recruited armed forces, just as Mace Windu stated in Shatterpoint. Examples of these forces would be the Jabiim Loyalist Army or the Alderaanian Marines.

Edit: formatting.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The "quintillions of engineers" quote refers to the quintillions of engineers throughout the history of the galaxy, not at one specific point.

Really?

Few now presume to question the quintillions of engineering pioneers active in the Early Hyperspace Age. [emphasis mine]

This entire passage relates to technological stasis since the Republic's consolidation, so it most certainly only relates to engineers at the eve of the Republic. Moreover, I doubt every engineer was an "engineering pioneer"; more likely a very small proportion. If anything, the actual galactic population is probably orders of magnitude greater.

[Vympel]

Unfortunately the RotS novelization statement by Palpatine that the galaxy has a population as "quadrillions" makes quintillions of Clone Troopers just impossible. The same statement has Palpatine giving the population of Coruscant as 1 trillion. Stupid, yes, but G-canon. I agree with Sharky.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Unfortunately the RotS novelization statement by Palpatine that the galaxy has a population as "quadrillions" makes quintillions of Clone Troopers just impossible. The same statement has Palpatine giving the population of Coruscant as 1 trillion. Stupid, yes, but G-canon. I agree with Sharky.

G-canon is not an assignment of authoritative status; it is simply a label for Holocron organization purposes. This must be the umpteenth time we've gone over this one. The "old" canon scale of "distance from the films" is still valid.

The film itself contradicts one trillion citizens of Coruscant. It portrays a Coruscant realistically of many quadrillions; this also would almost certainly disprove that the galactic population is in the mere quadrillions.

Let's not lose our skepticism regarding secondary sources simply because they're newer than older ones. The novelisations are one-step away from the films, and so are the DK nonfiction works. They're both expanding-on-the-films sources, but the DK works are technical sources. I'd consider them more reliable for these purposes. I don't really think one can objectively differenciate from how close to the movies these sources are. DK nonfiction, comic depictions, novelisations, radio dramas, and screenplays are all just-below-filmic canon.

Now, given the choice between two of them, when one of the provided statistics on Coruscant's population in question is demonstratively untrue by the open depiction of the film and the other is a technical source, what do you choose? The filmic evidence itself makes those figures HIGHLY unlikely.

[Spartan]

We should also take note that this is the Supreme Chancellor talking not some census taker. He's also trying to butter up Anakin. There's no reason to assume that he actually knowns the true population figures. He a politico after all. Ask George Bush the population of Washington DC or New York, and I bet he couldn't even come close to the right answer. I think we should, remember the context in which that statement was made.

[Connor MacLeod]

Not all that unreasonable; after all there are quintillions of engineers at the beginning of the Republic (AOTC: ICS), and there are quintillions of battle droids IIRC (ROTS: ICS).

Since Sharky pointed this out already, I'll note its not necceesarily over time.. the only timeframe they give (which is vague enough) is the "early hyperspace age" it only vaguely refers to the 25,000 year timeframe.

Saxton's "reasonable" estimates are in the several quadrillion for the population of Coruscant, and there are many such words, especially in the Galactic Core: Humbarine, Denon, Grizmalt, etc.

Even if we take Curtis's estimates for Coruscant as canon fact, how does that mean "quintillions of clone troopers"?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Even if we take Curtis's estimates for Coruscant as canon fact, how does that mean "quintillions of clone troopers"?

I'm not arguing that. That can only be supported by the a priori argument that there must be a 1:1 war droid to clone ratio to see the results we have, and I haven't seen that justified objectively.

[Connor MacLeod]

Unfortunately the RotS novelization statement by Palpatine that the galaxy has a population as "quadrillions" makes quintillions of Clone Troopers just impossible. The same statement has Palpatine giving the population of Coruscant as 1 trillion. Stupid, yes, but G-canon. I agree with Sharky.

The 1 trillion figure is (IIRC) repeated twice. We know very little about the surface area of Coruscant and how it is used, after all, so we're reduced to little more than guesstimates anyhow (besides which, given the existence of massive construction droids whose sole purpose is to break down and remake the surface, the situation can arguably change.)

One might argue the "trillion" figure is for the native population of Coruscant only, and that the majority of the planet is occupied by a more transient, "temporary" population (tourists, businesmen, lobbysits, etc.) Coruscant is the effective center of the galaxy and does an immense amount of traffic.

And I thought Palpatine referred to "countless quadrillions?" when he was lecturing Anakin?

[Vympel]

Yeah, the quote is uncounted quadrillions- leaves a lot of room, but quintillions of Clone Troopers? That is quite simply insane and proposes that there may be more Clone Troopers than regular citizens. It's also totally unecessary. Battle Droids in such numbers I believe, but not Clone Troopers.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, the quote is uncounted quadrillions- leaves a lot of room, but quintillions of Clone Troopers? That is quite simply insane and proposes that there may be more Clone Troopers than regular citizens. It's also totally unecessary. Battle Droids in such numbers I believe, but not Clone Troopers.

I suspect that the actual numbers of clone troopers is less.. Billions, maybe trillions would be my upper limit guess. The Clones are basically Palpatine's personal army (they answer first and foremost to the Supreme Chancellor, as we witness in the novelization.) The Senate would be unlikely to allow their total numbers to substantially outweigh the numbers of any individual sector, system, or planetary army. Palpy has lots of authority, but he is not simply able (At this point) to rule on force alone (either in naval or army terms.)

Moreover, we know the Clones are the primary backbone of the Republic's ground forces, they are hardly the only component. They rely on local forces as well (presumably local standing forces as well as "insurrectionist" groups on contested worlds like Kashyyyk or Mon Calamari.) I believe Jedi Trial had examples of local, non-clone military forces (Medstar may have had them as well.) The clones seem to be used mainly as the primary striking arm of the Republic (bolstered by non-clone forces and support personnel, who presumably do most of the garrison duty as well.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think you need many trillions and maybe a few quadrillions realistically to have the pervasive level of power and importance within the Republic military shown in the films.

That said, I still believe that there is much more than quintillions of galactic inhabitants.

[Connor MacLeod]

I think you need many trillions and maybe a few quadrillions realistically to have the pervasive level of power and importance within the Republic military shown in the films.

Erm, where exactly are you looking in the films? The only example we have thus far is Geonosis.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think you need many trillions and maybe a few quadrillions realistically to have the pervasive level of power and importance within the Republic military shown in the films.

Erm, where exactly are you looking in the films? The only example we have thus far is Geonosis.

I think the standard look of the films out to be the center of a normal curve if you will; with that being typical around the galaxy. We see that the clones are the centerpiece of a massive military undertaking in several theaters throughout the galaxy, simultaneously. Including core worlds. I don't imagine that the films are the only place clones are centrally detailed, and everywhere else its mostly local forces and stuff that looks nothing like the films.

[Vympel]

There is the fact that Bail Organa refers to the new governors installion clonetroopers (which he disdainfully calls "security troops") on Repulic planets.

[Illuminatus Primus]

There is the fact that Bail Organa refers to the new governors installion clonetroopers (which he disdainfully calls "security troops") on Repulic planets.

And you mean to suggest that those are all the clonetroopers? That's even worse; that's significant troop detachments to each sector in the galaxy. That's at least millions if not much more to maintain effective control.

[Vympel]

And you mean to suggest that those are all the clonetroopers?

I'm not sure I understand the phrasing- accoridng to Bail Organa, the security troops being dispatched were indeed clonetroops, so yeah, they're all clonetroopers, but not all of them.

That's even worse; that's significant troop detachments to each sector in the galaxy. That's at least millions if not much more to maintain effective control.

Yup.

[Ender]

Unfortunately the RotS novelization statement by Palpatine that the galaxy has a population as "quadrillions" makes quintillions of Clone Troopers just impossible. The same statement has Palpatine giving the population of Coruscant as 1 trillion. Stupid, yes, but G-canon. I agree with Sharky.

Assume he was using the english quadrillions, and the quintillions is the american version. Bam, problem solved.


Connor: Quotes not handy right now, after I move into my apartment I'll get them to you when I post all my stuff here I putzed with.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

You can't do that. The've always used short scale (American), rather than long scale (old European).