Q's powers.. overrated?

[Q]

Wait, you think the Voth can duplicate a Q's actions?

Name one thing that Q has done that the Voth couldn't create a facsimile of.

Easy. Tapestry is the best example as follows:

1. The events that take place are directly from Picard's memory, down to the tinest detail. The Voth obviously haven't demonstrated the ability to use extensive mind probing techniques or telepathy of any kind. Basically, they wouldn't have been able to duplicate anything from Picard's past correctly in the same situation because they don't have the powers of a Q.

2. The Q and the Grey is the next best example. The Q are in the middle of a civil war because of Quinn's death in Death Wish. When I fight a real war, I don't stop to make my holographic technology look like the galaxy is dying. The way you describe the Q, the entire Star Trek galaxy would be a giant Q holodeck because the Q war was causing these side effects across the entire galaxy. In other words, the Voth may be powerful but they can't use their technology on the entire galaxy like the Q.

3. All Good Things... is another example for many of the reasons above.

[Zoink]

1. The events that take place are directly from Picard's memory, down to the tinest detail.

Memory is never perfect; getting something "down to the finest detail" is not necessary. The only trick, especially for someone in a hypnotic state, is to get them to believe that it is real.

Take one subspace teleporter, one Romulan mind probe with later conditioning to forget it (may substitute other alien mind probe), one holodeck, mind-altering drugs, and voila!

The Q are in the middle of a civil war because of Quinn's death in Death Wish. When I fight a real war, I don't stop to make my holographic technology look like the galaxy is dying. The way you describe the Q, the entire Star Trek galaxy would be a giant Q holodeck because the Q war was causing these side effects across the entire galaxy. In other words, the Voth may be powerful but they can't use their technology on the entire galaxy like the Q.

Take a dozen nova-causing torpedoes, access to one borg transwarp conduit, combine with a bio-debilitating field, subspace teleporters, add one holodeck, shake and serve.

All Good Things... is another example for many of the reasons above.

Considering that everything that happened in that episode, didn't really happen. It could easily have been done on a holodeck, especially since absolutely no one, except Picard has any recollection of what happened. Take one subspace teleporter, one holodeck, one bio-debilitating field, and one spaceship traveling at high relativistic speeds (to make one night seem like a long time), and *poof*, even a half-brained ferengi could have pulled that one off.

I was describing how the Force can be nothing but smoke and mirrors, which is exactly what you are trying to do with Q's powers

But we have movies with Jedi discussing how the force worked. At the time they weren't trying to "play" with any victims. For all we know, the Q are like "Ardra" (the one pretending to be the devil in TNG).

[Mr Bean]

I'll say it agian
Ochums razer don't support God, Godlike or otherwise super beings but rather its technology
In fact as I said This could ALL be explained away as Mind Wonking powers to screw with Picards head Compined with a simple personal Transporter

Now to respond to what you said as you seem to have put the provebeal foot in your mouth
1.

. Your explanation relies on technology never even been hinted at throughout TNG, DS9, or Voyager. A theory that doesn't fit the facts or uses information that doesn't exist simply can't be valid no matter how much you want it to be.

AYFKM? As Zoink posted saving me the trouble all that was done can be done with EXISTING Trecky Tecnology, Simply scalled up versions and Mind Wonking ability. Heck even a little extra Mind Wonking Ability and the EXISTING technology could do what was done(Example? Not showing up on sensors. These are not the droids you are looking for *blink I detected no unnormal energy readings)

2

Q does more than mess with Picard. He just decided to mess with humanity because he was a rogue. Most Qs don't mess with other species, instead act as guardians of the galaxy. I believe Q's son and Janeway were talking about the role of a Q in the galaxy and that was one of their roles. I remember Quinn spending part of his life on Earth doing that very thing. The whole thing with Newton, Riker, and the woodstock guy is an excellent example. The fact that the Q punish rogues like Quinn, Q, and Q's son is another example of the Qs responsibility and role in the galaxy. They were wreaking havok when they should have been keeping the galaxy safe. That was also demonstrated in The Q and the Grey, when the galaxy was thrown into chaos because of the Q civil war.

Three simple things
1. Protect them from what?
2. They had a Civil War, Gee they real got it togther, All knowing? What about that little War they where going to throw?
3. They punish rouges HOW?
How long has Q been messing with Picard and how long did they punish him for it? What that hes STILL messing with Picard (AND Janeway, and whoever the else he feels like)

Finaly
3.

It doesn't matter if Vader claims omnipotence because I was describing how the Force can be nothing but smoke and mirrors, which is exactly what you are trying to do with Q's powers. Think before answering next time.

Right back at ya, Does not matter that Q IS claming Omnipotence because I described how the Omnipotence and his actions could be nothing more than smoke and Mirrors

You claim you know everything
I claim I can fly
Is either true?
Does the AMOUNT of the lie matter as much as the Lie?
Or in better terms
If I say I'm God himself, All knowing, All powerful and everlasting
Or(Holds up Blue Pen) This Pen is Red
Once you've proven each is wrong, Does it matter if one is wronger?


Think before you speak and kindly take the foot out of your mouth

[Q]

Memory is never perfect; getting something "down to the finest detail" is not necessary. The only trick, especially for someone in a hypnotic state, is to get them to believe that it is real.

Take one subspace teleporter, one Romulan mind probe with later conditioning to forget it (may substitute other alien mind probe), one holodeck, mind-altering drugs, and voila!

You have omnipotence vs a whole lot of technology that has never been associated with the Q. Tapestry brings up another interesting point. How could Picard have been there being treated by Beverly AND go through the whole past life sequence. He obviously benefited from Crusher's treatment and lived on while still experiencing that same sequence. Now I ask you, how would that have been possible with ANY kind of technology?

Take a dozen nova-causing torpedoes, access to one borg transwarp conduit, combine with a bio-debilitating field, subspace teleporters, add one holodeck, shake and serve.

Tell me, have any of these technologies ever been remotely associated with a Q? No? I thought so. You can make up a whole lot of technological crap but the matter is as dictated by canon: the Q are omnipotent. The Q don't use technology and consider it nothing more than a primitive tool for the inferior species like humanity.

Considering that everything that happened in that episode, didn't really happen. It could easily have been done on a holodeck, especially since absolutely no one, except Picard has any recollection of what happened. Take one subspace teleporter, one holodeck, one bio-debilitating field, and one spaceship traveling at high relativistic speeds (to make one night seem like a long time), and *poof*, even a half-brained ferengi could have pulled that one off.

Blah blah blah. What sounds more plausable: A Q is omnipotent or a Q is using some technology never hinted at? Add the fact that Q's son said that a Q would never lower himself by using such technology and which sounds more plausable? Answer that one.

But we have movies with Jedi discussing how the force worked. At the time they weren't trying to "play" with any victims. For all we know, the Q are like "Ardra" (the one pretending to be the devil in TNG).

But we have shows with Q discussing how a Q is omnipotent...

[Q]

I'll say it agian
Ochums razer don't support God, Godlike or otherwise super beings but rather its technology

Funny, as technology has never been associated with the Q. You can't accept lies when we have only one real explanation just because you want to.

In fact as I said This could ALL be explained away as Mind Wonking powers to screw with Picards head Compined with a simple personal Transporter

Maybe in your primitive mind it can...

AYFKM? As Zoink posted saving me the trouble all that was done can be done with EXISTING Trecky Tecnology, Simply scalled up versions and Mind Wonking ability. Heck even a little extra Mind Wonking Ability and the EXISTING technology could do what was done(Example? Not showing up on sensors. These are not the droids you are looking for *blink I detected no unnormal energy readings)

How many times do I have to say this: IT HAS NEVER BEEN HINTED THAT THE Q USE TECHNOLOGY!!!!!! All we do know is that the Q are omnipotent and that is canon. You can make up all kinds of explanations but they will never be true because canon says otherwise.

Three simple things
1. Protect them from what?

Probably rogues like Q. Remember, it was Q who introduced the Federation to the Borg. That was why he told his son not to provoke the Borg in Q2. He almost contributed to the assimilation of humanity, which was not keeping order in the galaxy.

2. They had a Civil War, Gee they real got it togther, All knowing? What about that little War they where going to throw?

Oh how I love this...
The whole reason Q wanted to keep Quinn alive in Death Wish is because of the unknown possibilites that would be a result of his death. Quinn was an effective martyr, shaking up the Continuum in a way that he never could while omnipotent. Other Qs including Q himself started to stand up to the Continuum, resulting in a civil war. That is also just another demonstration of the role of a Q. Without the Q keeping order, the galaxy was slowly dying.

3. They punish rouges HOW?

Duh, imprisonment for eternity, live as a human, life as an amoeba, etc....

How long has Q been messing with Picard and how long did they punish him for it? What that hes STILL messing with Picard (AND Janeway, and whoever the else he feels like)

Do you remember when Q was turned into a human? Something the Continuum did caused him to change into a stoic, upstanding member of the Continuum. That version of Q was what we first saw in Death Wish. Upon learning of Quinn's motivation, which was Q himself, he granted Quinn's wish and gave him the poison. That led to the The Q and the Grey, in which Q led the others who were inspired by Quinn.

Right back at ya, Does not matter that Q IS claming Omnipotence because I described how the Omnipotence and his actions could be nothing more than smoke and Mirrors

Funny, you didn't comment on how this technology can keep Q young for millions of years...

You claim you know everything
I claim I can fly
Is either true?
Does the AMOUNT of the lie matter as much as the Lie?
Or in better terms
If I say I'm God himself, All knowing, All powerful and everlasting
Or(Holds up Blue Pen) This Pen is Red
Once you've proven each is wrong, Does it matter if one is wronger?

Think before you speak and kindly take the foot out of your mouth

The only thing that matters is accuracy when it comes to the truth. If one theory doesn't even remotely fit the facts while the other is the only explanation given to us, its pretty obvious which is correct. Now take that giant stick out of your ass and accept the truth. You depend on both explanations being lies but yours is the lie while mine is 100% true based on the facts.

[Mr Bean]

All we do know is that the Q are omnipotent and that is canon

Stripping away everything else and we get to just this is your entire aurgment
Prove A wrong everything else falls apart

So lets strip everything else away and I'll ask you
PROVE IT

And add a note
On-screen dialoge don't COUNT!
IE: If La Forge Says he is God, Does that make it Cannon he is God?
For our pursposes NO IT DOES NOT

Find me ONE instance of somthing that was done in the ENTIRE series that could not be duplicated by Existing Techonolgy.

[tharkûn]

yes and the death star is all smoke and mirrors.

You see the empire didn't really blow up Alderaan, Vader just used some very sophisticate mind screwing technology to make everyone present *think* they had ... you know some mysterious EM pulse that feeds false data directly into the brain.

He then placed a cloaked buoy into the sytem so that:
1. The Alderaanians would think they were dead after he left and eventually die of thirst.
2. Any passing ships would think that Alderaan was destroyed and they were passing through its debris feild.
3. And just to be safe included are a few fun little ramships to simulate any alleged debris impacts.

There isn't *any* event in the history of science fiction that can't be explained by "smoke and mirrors". We must either trust the visuals as what you see is what you get ... or you end up with the solipsism.

[Zoink]

A Q is omnipotent or a Q is using some technology never hinted at? Add the fact that Q's son said that a Q would never lower himself by using such technology and which sounds more plausable? Answer that one.

Q is bent on messing with Picard and Janeway. That's a given, right? So that messing could include a lot of lying. If Q is playing another "Ardra", then he's going to lie about being omnipotent, not using technology, etc. That could mean that mini-Q (being a Q) would lie also.


Now I know I'm kinda just pulling stuff out of my head... but the episode "All Good Things" really bugged me:

Why would the Q decide to erase human? Do they do this with all races? Why do the Pakleds still exist? Q showed that humans didn't form 4 billion years ago, yet the Enterprise was still there, so when were they going to dissappear if not then? It seemed that the anomoly was less important than what Picard was doing. The whole idea just didn't fit.

Considering that Picard is the ONLY one who has any recollection of these events, what is more plausible:

1) Picard dreamed the whole thing.

2) The Q don't go around erasing races. Q is messing with Picard yet again. He creates the illusion (through innate powers or technology) that Picard is jumping through time, doing all these things.

3) Every so often, the Q erase civilizations that can't grasp the basics of time alteration. So, they go to all the trouble of altering time, no doubt causing all sorts of trouble with other omnipotent beings, races, time travelers,.... even though simply giving Picard the illusion that this was happening would have been a bazillion times easier way to test him.

4) Every so often, the Q destroy civilizations that can't grasp the basics of time alteration. So, they gave Picard the illusion that all those things happened. The Q liked how he reacted and returned him to the enterprise.

[John Clark]

The reason for the events of "All Good Things", for those of you who weren't paying attention (and there are apparently quite a few) is that Q and the rest of the Continuum were testing humans (using Picard as Humanity's representative) to see if they had the ability to grow beyond a "grievously savage child-race".

A test, mind you, that the Empire would utterly fail.

[John Clark]

Further, for those of you who want to know WHY the Q Continuum are testing humanity in this way, think back to Season 1's "Q Who", when Q intimated that the Continuum are actually FRIGHTENED of the fact that humans will one day be more powerful than the Q.

Point 1 -- The Q Continuum are the guardians of order in the Universe.
Point 2 -- The Q Continuum believe that Humanity will at some point become more powerful than the Q.

It then follows logically that the Q wish to test Humanity to determine what we will do with that power once we achieve it. The best way for them to do this is to, on occasion, place us in harm's way, and on other occasions to test our reaction to situations entirely outside human experience.

I submit that Q was not punished for tormenting lower life forms, but for focusing on lifeforms other than humans, thus shirking his responsibility in the experiment he had been tasked with: namely, Picard and the Enterprise.

[Robert Treder]

Further, for those of you who want to know WHY the Q Continuum are testing humanity in this way, think back to Season 1's "Q Who", when Q intimated that the Continuum are actually FRIGHTENED of the fact that humans will one day be more powerful than the Q.

Point 1 -- The Q Continuum are the guardians of order in the Universe.
Point 2 -- The Q Continuum believe that Humanity will at some point become more powerful than the Q.

It then follows logically that the Q wish to test Humanity to determine what we will do with that power once we achieve it. The best way for them to do this is to, on occasion, place us in harm's way, and on other occasions to test our reaction to situations entirely outside human experience.

I submit that Q was not punished for tormenting lower life forms, but for focusing on lifeforms other than humans, thus shirking his responsibility in the experiment he had been tasked with: namely, Picard and the Enterprise.

Well, the mere fact that they can be frightened means they are not omnipotent.
The fact that they think humans may become more powerful than they are means they are not omnipotent.
The fact that Q can be punished means they are not omnipotent.

That doesn't really solve the whole technology/superpowers debate, but it should drive the final nail in the coffin of the idea that Q are omnipotent.

[Zoink]

The reason for the events of "All Good Things", for those of you who weren't paying attention (and there are apparently quite a few) is that Q and the rest of the Continuum were testing humans (using Picard as Humanity's representative) to see if they had the ability to grow beyond a "grievously savage child-race".

The test in question was whether or not Picard would solve the time Paradox. To solve the paradox Picard would have to sacrifice himself, and crew in three time periods.

The test was completely useless as a moral delemna because Picard would w/o question sacrifice himself and crew to save humanity. If the Q weren't aware of this fact, then they're pretty stupid. The only REAL test was whether or not Picard could grasp the basics of time alteration.

[Smiling Bandit]

Granted, thats one possibility. But the Q have shown powers far beyond anything reasonably technological that we could either predict or quantify. They appear to be able to arbitrarily alter matter, teleport, etc.

1) Q "shrunk" an alien ship with a mere wave if his hand, The ship seemed to function normally. He then "blew" it away like he was blowing some hot soup. (That Q Human episode, name unknown)

2) Q made Data laugh, and Data actually *felt* it before having an emotion chip.

3) Q apparently can move around through time as well as space instantaneously. (All good things)

4) Unless he was lying, he could change the universal constant of gravity at his whim merely to move a big rock. He could probably move the rock at his whom too, but then, the Enterprise couldn't even come close to that, and that was the subject.

5) He moved Picard around time, while keeping his consciousnes the same, so that Picard could create and then destroy a "blah blah Trek blah". (All Good Things")

Now, he might have lying or using some hologram tech he carries around in his pocket, but the show presents it as real, and we have no evidence to the contrary.

[Mr Bean]

I can answear those for ya Bandit

1.

Q "shrunk" an alien ship with a mere wave if his hand, The ship seemed to function normally. He then "blew" it away like he was blowing some hot soup. (That Q Human episode, name unknown

Where the crew ever on the alien ship? Did they talk with anyone on it? Did it do anything?
If its no to the above then how do we know its not a holo-gram, Heck even if they DID talk with anyone its still possible with Trecky Holo-Deck Tecknology.

2.

Q made Data laugh, and Data actually *felt* it before having an emotion chip.

This ones decent, Its either a point in favor of Q having Mind Wonking Powers or being omnipotent
I'll give you this one, Its a little hard to explain'

3.

Q apparently can move around through time as well as space instantaneously. (All good things)

Mind Wonking/Holo-Deck/Simple Inserted Imagins, This is NEARLY possible by todays Technlogy(Hypnosis and false memorys, however false memorys wear off this one did not seem to)

4.

Unless he was lying, he could change the universal constant of gravity at his whim merely to move a big rock. He could probably move the rock at his whom too, but then, the Enterprise couldn't even come close to that, and that was the subject.

I'll go with Lying on this because it breaks quite a few fundmental laws of Science oh and they might notice when everyone in the unverise dies as gravitys re-orinted, Everythings in motion
Imagin this, Stand on a merry go round, Spin it one way real fast then STOP it and spin it the other way(Stop it instantly)
What happens?
Well likley you fly off
Or hit somthing
Problem is when your going over 600 miles and hour and you stop instantly what happens?
YOU DIE
Don't belive me? Trying jumping out of an airplane at 10,000 Feet and land on some cement see how long you survive

5.

He moved Picard around time, while keeping his consciousnes the same, so that Picard could create and then destroy a "blah blah Trek blah". (All Good Things")

Mind Wonking/Picards in a holo-deck and does not know it

So there ya go Bandit, The only one that CAN:T be explained away by existing Tecnology is oddly enough Data laughing

[Zoink]

Q made Data laugh, and Data actually *felt* it before having an emotion chip.

This ones decent, Its either a point in favor of Q having Mind Wonking Powers or being omnipotent
I'll give you this one, Its a little hard to explain'

Clearly Q possessed knowledge of Dr Soon's work. Its not suprising, if you're going to fool around with a particular crew, it pays to do alot of research on them. Q also ha that entire episode to study Data. Using probe that is out of phase of normal reality (like in Voyager, the aliens doing experiments on the crew), Q interfaced with Data. The probe contained a crude emotion chip, temporarily giving Data emotion.

[Smiling Bandit]

"breaks quite a few fundmental laws of Science"

Yes, but so does *everything* on the show.

Heck, I can tell you how to become Q.

You take a bunch of those telepathy/telekinesis-inducing drugs and then zoo out past the ede of the galaxy.

COngrats, you are a God.

[Mr Bean]

Heh Bandit I mean MORE than normal

IE if Q did what he said he did to move the rock(Change Gravity) Everyone on a planet in the Unverise would kinda DIE
And you think they might have noticed that....

[John Clark]

The only REAL test was whether or not Picard could grasp the basics of time alteration

Excuse me? Did you go to the pisser during Q's Big Speech (TM) right before he sent Picard back to the "normal" timeline?

Check the "Database" on this site, if Wong bothered to mention it -- which I'm guessing he didn't, because it hints at the idea that the Q are looking out for humanity, at least in some VERY minimal way.

[Zoink]

Picard says something like "this is it, you want me to see if I can solve the paradox"... and Picard was right in his statement, because thats what he was doing, solving a paradox.

But yes, I did hear Q going on about how this is a test of humanity.... but that's all hogwash because all that Picard was doing was solving a paradox. You'll need to explain to me HOW this paradox is a test of humanity because I don't see the link... because other time paradoxes have been solved by humans, and other humans have sacrificed themselves to save others.

[TheDarkling]

Zoink: Im not saying you wrong but could you give me an example of another time paradox in trek?

[Zoink]

One time alteration thing:

TNG:
Enterprise C goes into the future, altering the timeline. Enterprise D must sacrifice itself and its entire timeline to restore a timeline that they don't even know.

[TheDarkling]

Ah yes Yesterdays eterprise -except the events on that one were like this.

Event alters history - Ship is sent back to correct history but history is still slighly changed.

But the paradox is caused by itself.

Picard looking for the Rift causes the rifts creation but if it didnt exist why was he looking for it and thus creating it - thats a paradox and thus makes no sense.

The events of yesterdays enterprise werent caused by itself, just by some weird time rift.

[NecronLord]

1) In 'Death wish' Quinn is talking to Tuvok at the beginning of act 3 and he says "But you mustn't think of us as ommnipotent. No matter what the continuum would like you to belive. You and your ship seem incredibly powerful to life-forms without your technical expertise. It's no different with us. We may appear ommnipotent to you, but belive me we're not."

Furthermore they cannot be ommnipotent, as how can a group of beings be all-powerful and take away the powers of another all powerful being? How did they kill amanda's parents if they were all-powerful?

Also the agenda of Q is to test humans, specifically intelligence, morality and, barbarism. Bearing in mind that they belive humans will one day reach a level of power equalk to or greater than their own. "au contraire! It is the human future that now intrigues us..."- Hide and Q. they, specifically Q[john de lancie] are trying to determine wheter or not humans would destroy them if they had the chance. Presumably if they decided that they would the continuum would take corrective action, specifically exterminating humanity. They are not Ommnippotent, 'only' extremely powerful, their power is clearly finite.

[Mr Bean]

Thank you NecronLord for that post, I had forgot all about what Quinn had said

Well anyway hmm
Its back to the part of the only thing that could not have been Current Treck Tecknology Trickery or Slight Mind Alteration is the laughing Data and Zoink seems to be of the opionin that its just a good Q doing his homework

Untill I can come up with my own I'll go with his

[Smiling Bandit]

There are, of course, differences between vastly powerful to the point where it is, as far as humankind is concerned, omnipotent, and actually being omnipotent.

Stangely, in one book Q ives God credit for most of creation, but proudly declares *he* made the uck-billed platypus

<<*I-Display-Big-Cheezy-Grin*>>