Modern tank vs Mobile Suit, serious calcs included.

[SAMAS]

Here's the scene of the Zaku firing the Magella Attack's 175mm cannon.

Did I hear something in the background? Sounded like a baby crying.

Right. So shut up so we can get some sleep.

I just got through with Thanksgiving dinner, and I have to deal with yet another turkey.

[Darth Wong]

So Wong, what about our new user group?

Sure, if you think you'd have enough to talk about to make it worthwhile. Do you want to be the moderator?

For a name, I'm thinking "Heavy Armour Brigade".

[SAMAS]

Hey SAMAS, if you want to prove that a fictional vehicle can trash a real one, it does you no good to compare it to another fictional vehicle from the same universe.

You know, you have a point here. Should we switch from Gundam to Gasaraki, then?

[Sea Skimmer]

So Wong, what about our new user group?

Sure, if you think you'd have enough to talk about to make it worthwhile. Do you want to be the moderator?

For a name, I'm thinking "Heavy Armour Brigade".

We have enough. I'm happy to be a mod. The worst that can happen is we delete it, but think traffic will stay up.

Heavy Armor Brigade is fine, Corps or Theater Group also works

[SWPIGWANG]

the states given in gundam model kits and books is completely out of wack IMO.

Those people just mutiply the caliber of weapons by ten and left it.....

[Vympel]

Ooooh I wanna join. Custom titles anyone?!

[Sea Skimmer]

You in, I'm adding in those who have taken part in the death of the mecha so far, others will need to petition.

[Howedar]

SAMAS: The Tank side has proven that Mech armor is thinner than that of a tank, with no material superiority to counteract this. Thus, the fact that said Mech armor can withstand X gun only proves the weakness of X gun.

[Dendrobius]

Since Lord Wong raised a few issues and asked me to add/redo some calculations, here they are. I'll address all of his rebuttals.

And an apology, I simply don't have the time to hang around and reply piecemeal, thus my massive posting. I'm not doing a Darkstar/Ironman! Honest!

Also, I noticed that neither Sea Skimmer nor MKSheppard was able to do ANY calculations whatsoever, but shot off at the mouth. Howedar shot off at the mouth and did no calculations either! And Sea Skimmer, MKSheppard, nothing more about barrel elevation? Concession accepted on that point.

1 - For that scene, yes, it was a continuous one-angle camera shot. From the Gundam's cockpit. So no quibbling about that there.

2 - OK, new information, T90s do 8700kg/m^2. Zaku:
Standing on both feet = 2400kg/m^3
Standing on one feet = 4800kg/m^3 => That's still almost 1/2 the pressure...
Walking/running = no idea, but please prove to me that it will be higher even though we don't know how it walks (heel to toe like human or stomp like AT-AT)

3 - Speed ONLY, Lord Wong, I never made any claims on accuracy or even firing whilst moving, I only said that it was faster. And I proved it. That's all. You'll even notice that I specifically used road speed to compare, not cross country, just to be fair.

4 - For the shattering part, you will have noticed that I specifically said 1.8km/s, 5kg DU projectile will act the same as a 5km/s, .638kg one. So your rebuttal about weaker object is totally, utterly, moot.

5 - I used KE because I was calculating the energy an M1A1's 1.8km/s projectile had when it leaves the barrel and use that to scale a round for the Magella assuming that it can give the same amount of energy to its 5km/s projectile, which I thought would give the same recoil.

If you use momentum, the numbers still don't make sense if we use your premise of low recoil

M1A1 = 5 * 1800 = 9000
Magella shell = 9000 / 5000 = 1.8kg (if it takes same recoil)
.180kg or 180g if the Magella only takes 1/10 of the recoil

180g is less than 40% by weight of the detonator alone of the HE-FRAG rounds as used by the Russians! The actual HE weights a bit over 3kg. It still doesn't make sense if its HE.

6 - I raised Centre of Percussion as a probable explaination to how MSs won't necessarily fall over when firing weapons with significant recoil.

I cannot give you even a tentative answer as to where the Centre of Percussion actually is in a Zaku, because NO DATA EXISTS FOR THE WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION of the Zaku, AS I HAVE STATED CATAGORICALLY EARLIER. You are an engineer, YOU should know that it's impossible to calculate the Centre of Percussion for something you don't know the weight distribution of. They do teach that in UW, don't they?

However, we know that IT IS possible for that point to exist where the firing takes place. And MSs have a system called "Active Mass Balancing And Control" (AMBAC), which would be an absolutely perfect and intrinsic explaination for how they're able to fire anywhere from waist height to shoulder height. Redistribution of 'ballast' weight!

Another thing, Magella cannons are fired double handed by the Zakus. And as for off centre recoil, you'll notice that the weapon is held very closely to the main body, thus the moment arm is very short.

Final points:
- Everybody initially said Gundam heavy weapons must be low velocity HE based stuff. I proved that it is not low velocity. And according to your rules about recoil it cannot be HE either as there's simply not enough there to do anything! If you can't explain this, then you'll have to concede both low velocity and HE shells.
- 1.8km/s, 5000g DU projectile does the exact same thing as a 5km/s, 648g DU projectile, provided that the shape is roughly similar (long cylinder with pointy end). And it would have to be considering the speed it's going at. Also keep in mind that it probably is not DU that the Magella is firing but some even funkier stuff.
- There is a physical explaination for how a Zaku could stay upright firing such weaponery. The theory is taught by second year in any reputable university's engineering course. And it is mathematically and mechanistically possible for this to exist.
- Howedar, thinner armour does not mean less effective, since a Zaku does not use RHA! BIG mistake! For example, 400mm of WWII armour is not going to do the same job as 400mm of modern Chobham armour. What I'm saying here is that in effect, the Zaku's running around with Chobham, the T90's got WWII, thus Zaku with thinner armour can still have the protection the T90 has or even more.

At the end of the day, I actually want in on the Heavy Tank thing, since I know that ON AN EQUAL TECHNOLOGY LEVEL mechs are owned by tanks.

Reason I'm debating this is because the technology level is NOT the same, and I like being devil's advocate. More challenging that way.

[Darth Wong]

2 - OK, new information, T90s do 8700kg/m^2. Zaku:
Standing on both feet = 2400kg/m^3
Standing on one feet = 4800kg/m^3 => That's still almost 1/2 the pressure...
Walking/running = no idea, but please prove to me that it will be higher even though we don't know how it walks (heel to toe like human or stomp like AT-AT)

Human feet are loaded to 3-7 times body weight at peak during running. And I still find it a bit odd that the mech's feet are nearly a third as long as the mech is high. Do you have a picture?

3 - Speed ONLY, Lord Wong, I never made any claims on accuracy or even firing whilst moving, I only said that it was faster. And I proved it. That's all. You'll even notice that I specifically used road speed to compare, not cross country, just to be fair.

So? From a tactical standpoint, if it can either move or shoot but not both, this is a problem.

4 - For the shattering part, you will have noticed that I specifically said 1.8km/s, 5kg DU projectile will act the same as a 5km/s, .638kg one. So your rebuttal about weaker object is totally, utterly, moot.

Ah, I see. Still, it should be noted that mechanical characteristics change with strain rate, so you cannot necessarily say that there is no difference. More to the point, you are using published specs regarding their weapon calibres and compositions despite having dismissed them earlier.

If you use momentum, the numbers still don't make sense if we use your premise of low recoil

M1A1 = 5 * 1800 = 9000
Magella shell = 9000 / 5000 = 1.8kg (if it takes same recoil)
.180kg or 180g if the Magella only takes 1/10 of the recoil

180g is less than 40% by weight of the detonator alone of the HE-FRAG rounds as used by the Russians! The actual HE weights a bit over 3kg. It still doesn't make sense if its HE.

So? The shell's great velocity would make it dangerous to lightly armoured structures despite the low mass. There is no reason to compare it to real-life shells or assume that it is equivalent in any way.

6 - I raised Centre of Percussion as a probable explaination to how MSs won't necessarily fall over when firing weapons with significant recoil.

I cannot give you even a tentative answer as to where the Centre of Percussion actually is in a Zaku, because NO DATA EXISTS FOR THE WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION of the Zaku, AS I HAVE STATED CATAGORICALLY EARLIER. You are an engineer, YOU should know that it's impossible to calculate the Centre of Percussion for something you don't know the weight distribution of. They do teach that in UW, don't they?

Yes, my little smart-assed mech-wanker friend. They also teach that if you're going to propose a theory, the burden of proof is upon you. In other words, you can't just say that the problem can be solved; you must SHOW that it can be solved. Did they teach THAT at whatever school you're going to? Or are they fucking morons like you? If you want to be a snippy about this, I can certainly return the favour.

However, we know that IT IS possible for that point to exist where the firing takes place. And MSs have a system called "Active Mass Balancing And Control" (AMBAC), which would be an absolutely perfect and intrinsic explaination for how they're able to fire anywhere from waist height to shoulder height. Redistribution of 'ballast' weight!

A system which you assume to have limitless capabilites

It is not difficult to determine whether an upright object will topple over. You simply set the fulcrum to the rear corner, you determine the centre of gravity, and you calculate the amount of lateral force required to push the combined force vector of impact+weight over until it's to the right of the fulcrum. Moving weight up will make it worse, and moving weight down would involve pushing that weight into the legs, which seems infeasible.

Another thing, Magella cannons are fired double handed by the Zakus. And as for off centre recoil, you'll notice that the weapon is held very closely to the main body, thus the moment arm is very short.

We NEVER see them shoot with a significant offset?

- Everybody initially said Gundam heavy weapons must be low velocity HE based stuff. I proved that it is not low velocity.

Assuming you are not misrepresenting the scenario, this is true. However, the underlying physics remain; if it is not low velocity, then it must be low mass.

And according to your rules about recoil it cannot be HE either as there's simply not enough there to do anything! If you can't explain this, then you'll have to concede both low velocity and HE shells.

Why? Did it ever occur to you that since the weapons must only damage the thin, light armour of the Zakus (remember the weight figure you cited earlier; thin armour is a given), a high-velocity shell with low-mass and weak explosive is hardly out of the question? Why do you persist in constructing your arguments as if powerful shells are a given, when that is the point of contention?

- 1.8km/s, 5000g DU projectile does the exact same thing as a 5km/s, 648g DU projectile, provided that the shape is roughly similar (long cylinder with pointy end). And it would have to be considering the speed it's going at. Also keep in mind that it probably is not DU that the Magella is firing but some even funkier stuff.

And you know that because ...? Bullets in real-life infantry weapons have been getting smaller and lighter, NOT heavier and bigger, for many decades now; why do you think the same is inconceivable here?

- There is a physical explaination for how a Zaku could stay upright firing such weaponery. The theory is taught by second year in any reputable university's engineering course. And it is mathematically and mechanistically possible for this to exist.

Hey asshole, news flash: you must show that this is the case rather than making vague allusion to it and snide remarks about my alma mater.

- Howedar, thinner armour does not mean less effective, since a Zaku does not use RHA! BIG mistake! For example, 400mm of WWII armour is not going to do the same job as 400mm of modern Chobham armour. What I'm saying here is that in effect, the Zaku's running around with Chobham, the T90's got WWII, thus Zaku with thinner armour can still have the protection the T90 has or even more.

A T90 has WW2-era armour? Fascinating. Which military handbook did you get this from? Or did you pull it from your ass?

[data_link]

Not that I want to get directly involved in this debate (although I realize that that doesn't mean shit to the person refuting my arguments) but:

Human feet are loaded to 3-7 times body weight at peak during running.

Ah. That explains the lovely footprints in the ground whenever the thing starts running. Still, because the unit lifts it's feet up to run, sinking somewhat into the ground does not substantially limit the unit's speed (seen), and so is irrelevant.

So? From a tactical standpoint, if it can either move or shoot but not both, this is a problem.

Then human infantry is tactically limited?

We NEVER see them shoot with a significant offset?

Of course not - if we didn't, then your argument about toppling would make sense.

- 1.8km/s, 5000g DU projectile does the exact same thing as a 5km/s, 648g DU projectile, provided that the shape is roughly similar (long cylinder with pointy end). And it would have to be considering the speed it's going at. Also keep in mind that it probably is not DU that the Magella is firing but some even funkier stuff.

And you know that because ...? Bullets in real-life infantry weapons have been getting smaller and lighter, NOT heavier and bigger, for many decades now; why do you think the same is inconceivable here?

His point is that the high-velocity shells would not nessecarily shatter on impact, thus making them viable even if they are low mass.

A T90 has WW2-era armour? Fascinating. Which military handbook did you get this from? Or did you pull it from your ass?

Wong, quit constructing strawmen about what is an obvious analogy to the relative strengths of the two armors.

[MKSheppard]

After that little act of intimidation, the Gouf's pilot engages Shiro in combat. He essentially plays with the three Gundams the entire time, and only allows himself to be killed because of his respect for Shiro's girlfriend. Of course, he makes sure that his final act also kills the last Guntank.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have our proof here that a modern.....COMPETENT
military force will OWN both Gundam sides....

Do you think the Russian Motor Rifle Divisions and Guards Tank Divisions will
be so nice as to accomodate both sides' (Fed and Zeon) masturbatory
wank fantasies about war?

[data_link]

After that little act of intimidation, the Gouf's pilot engages Shiro in combat. He essentially plays with the three Gundams the entire time, and only allows himself to be killed because of his respect for Shiro's girlfriend. Of course, he makes sure that his final act also kills the last Guntank.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have our proof here that a modern.....COMPETENT military force will OWN both Gundam sides....Unless it's being run by someone like Shep with his masturbatory wank fantasies about the unlimited power of tanks

Do you think the Russian Motor Rifle Divisions and Guards Tank Divisions will be so nice as to accomodate both sides' (Fed and Zeon) masturbatory
wank fantasies about war?No, they won't be around long enough to make a decision on that

[MKSheppard]

Actually, the armor of the Mobile suits have shown to be able to take quite a few hits. Even against the rounds of the Machineguns of other Mobile Suits, it takes several rounds to penetrate and do damage.

God, not this shit again.

PROOF THAT GUNDAM MACHINE GUNS SUCK HORSE COCK:


A Henschel Hs 129B-3/Wa of 14.(Pz)/Sch.G 9 fitted with the 75 mm BK 7,5 (PaK 40L) anti-tank gun in the winter of 1944-45

The Hs 129B-3/Wa was developed from the Hs 129B-2/R4, the PaK 40L gun being replaced by a factory installed 75 mm BK 7,5 gun (modified PaK 40L). The gun had a much larger muzzle brake an electro-pneumatically operated system which fed successive shells automatically. The gun was provided with 26 rounds which could be fired at a cyclic rate of 40 rounds per minute. It was so heavy and ungainly that it affected the flight characteristics of the aircraft to such an extent, that in the case of an emergency, the gun attachments were made jettisonable.

************

This was tried out and did not work, because a SEMI AUTOMATIC
75mm gun had so much recoil that it actually BENT the propellor blades
of the HS-129B-3, and in general put so much stress on the airframe.
Also, please note the small number of rounds actually carried. A machine
gun is defined as an automatic weapon. Any appreciable rate of fire
will have to involve at least 60 RPM....and at 40 pounds per round for
the M1A2's DU round......do the math

[Vympel]

You in, I'm adding in those who have taken part in the death of the mecha so far, others will need to petition.

I'm in mate.

[MKSheppard]

Concession accepted Datalink. You have not shown me any proof otherwise
that the Zeon forces will NOT act like a bunch of Medevial Knights in combat,
and will NOT get owned by Russian military doctine.

[data_link]

So what you have proven is that your beloved military planes suck horse cock and Gundams employ far superior construction. Thank you for acknowledging your own inferiority.

[MKSheppard]

So what you have proven is that your beloved military planes suck horse cock and Gundams employ far superior construction. Thank you for acknowledging your own inferiority.

Then care to give me the muzzle velocity statistics for your beloved 120mm
Machine guns, number of rounds carried, weight per round, and Rate of Fire?

[data_link]

Concession accepted Datalink. You have not shown me any proof otherwise that the Zeon forces will NOT act like a bunch of Medevial Knights in combat, and will NOT get owned by Russian military doctine.

Try every other battle depicted in Mobile Suit Gundam. Oh, and BTW, this battle was proof that a zaku in the hands of an ace can be moved faster than the gundams could target, and certainly faster than the guns of your beloved tanks can swivel. Since you obviously cannot defeat an enemy you cannot hit, I'll take that as a concession to Zaku superiority on your part.

[MKSheppard]

Try every other battle depicted in Mobile Suit Gundam. Oh, and BTW, this battle was proof that a zaku in the hands of an ace can be moved faster than the gundams could target, and certainly faster than the guns of your beloved tanks can swivel. Since you obviously cannot defeat an enemy you cannot hit, I'll take that as a concession to Zaku superiority on your part.

The amount your beloved Zakus can manuver around has no bearing at
a long range duel, as they die before they can get close enough to give
the turret motors on a T-90 any appreciable workout.

[Vympel]

Then human infantry is tactically limited?

Bingo. A human must be stationary if they want to hit anything. A modern tank can hit moving targets on the move with no problem.

His point is that the high-velocity shells would not nessecarily shatter on impact, thus making them viable even if they are low mass.

Viable against what? You are assuming the very thing you are trying to prove.

Wong, quit constructing strawmen about what is an obvious analogy to the relative strengths of the two armors.

Assuming the very thing he's trying to prove. He's already argued that these things have 'super tensile steel' as armor. So concession accepted.

[Vympel]

Then care to give me the muzzle velocity statistics for your beloved 120mm
Machine guns, number of rounds carried, weight per round, and Rate of Fire?

Of course he won't. That way, we'll have something quantifiable, which is the last thing mecha fans want.

[data_link]

Try every other battle depicted in Mobile Suit Gundam. Oh, and BTW, this battle was proof that a zaku in the hands of an ace can be moved faster than the gundams could target, and certainly faster than the guns of your beloved tanks can swivel. Since you obviously cannot defeat an enemy you cannot hit, I'll take that as a concession to Zaku superiority on your part.

The amount your beloved Zakus can manuver around has no bearing at
a long range duel, as they die before they can get close enough to give
the turret motors on a T-90 any appreciable workout.

Really? I'd like to see a T-90 even hit anything at 10 km.

[Vympel]

Really? I'd like to see a T-90 even hit anything at 10 km.

Oh and these mechas will be hitting dots that are about 2m tall at ten km while they're moving, and these shots will penetrate to boot

Wake up.

[MKSheppard]

Really? I'd like to see a T-90 even hit anything at 10 km.

It's easy when your target is the size of a HOUSE, not a 1.8m high tank.