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Posted: 2002-12-02 06:27am
by MKSheppard
Sea Skimmer wrote:
By June 6th 1944 the only recon aircraft that got over the UK where the ones the Allies let through to see the decoy areas.
Germany had less then 350 conventional and torpedo bombers total in all of France, Germany and the Low countries. Maybe 100 more where in northern Norway. They would be faced with a vast array of radar stations, thousands of fighters flying standing patrols, thousands of shore based guns, thousands of guns on the invasion shipping. Not to mention constant bombing and strafing of the bases they would need to use.
You miscount the E-Boats too.....a few of them got amongst the practice
invasion and cut it to pieces.....
Germany could have done a decent amount of damage on the Invasion fleet if they had gotten lucky...
Posted: 2002-12-02 09:44am
by irishmick79
You have to be able to fight a delaying action in France in order to free up troops for the Eastern Front. I agree that the Russians at this point in the war are Germany's primary concern, and slowing down their sledgehammer attacks is essential. But with the massive atrocities the Germans were committing in Russia angering the rank and file russian citizenry, it is highly unlikely that Stalin ("Only I can kill my own people like that dammit!") would have been in a forgiving mood and allowed Hitler to cut a deal.
By this point in the war, Germany's chances for victory were slim, and the Nazis had already gambled away their best chances to win. The last great German offensives had already been stopped, and slowly Barbarossa was unraveling and turining into a disaster. Industry was taking a daily pounding by American and British bombers, and the allies were beginning to produce superior equipment in greater numbers.
In order to keep troops from getting tied down in Western Europe, you'd have to crush the initial invasion completely, because the British and Americans would have needed months to sort out the disaster and regroup their forces for a second attempt. American and British morale would have been devestated by a sound defeat at Normandy, and Stalin might have been so frustrated with the inability of the Americans and the British to open a second front he might have decided to go it alone. A defeat could have prolonged the war for a year, maybe two. By that point, maybe war weariness would have begun to set in among the allies, and Germany would have been in a better position to negotiate a settlement if she so chose.
How would I try to beat the allies, if they had chosen to land at Normandy? The hedgerows provide excellent grounds for defense, and provide good cover for staging counterattacks further inland. I would allow the allies to establish a slim beachhead and when they first begin to move inland I would launch counterattacks designed to isolate and break up the lead units. The twenty first and the second SS panzer divisions would be deployed immediately, and drive to split the british and american beach heads, and prevent them from linking and establishing a unified front. The allied ability to reinforce the beachhead was initially limited until they were able to set up the Mulberry ports, and being in a position to disrupt them from doing that would have dramatically reduced their ability to bring in fresh troops. Keeping the allies off-balance and isolated from each other would have been the key. If the Germans could do that, they would have a good chance to win the battle.
Posted: 2002-12-02 03:11pm
by Sea Skimmer
MKSheppard wrote:Sea Skimmer wrote:
By June 6th 1944 the only recon aircraft that got over the UK where the ones the Allies let through to see the decoy areas.
Germany had less then 350 conventional and torpedo bombers total in all of France, Germany and the Low countries. Maybe 100 more where in northern Norway. They would be faced with a vast array of radar stations, thousands of fighters flying standing patrols, thousands of shore based guns, thousands of guns on the invasion shipping. Not to mention constant bombing and strafing of the bases they would need to use.
You miscount the E-Boats too.....a few of them got amongst the practice
invasion and cut it to pieces.....
Germany could have done a decent amount of damage on the Invasion fleet if they had gotten lucky...
The practice invasion had about 20 ships. Need I recount a list of the more then 100 E-boats, destroyers and mini subs that Germany lost against the actual invasion force? The return being a couple sunk or crippled destroyers and some shot up LCG's.
Posted: 2002-12-02 08:46pm
by tharkûn
The allies were landing men by the 10 thousand, once the Americans held Cherbourg its a given that France is going to fall and you are screwed. Your best shot at a delaying action is in small units in defensive positions with a mobile force able to go hotspot jumping. That won't buy you much time and the forces needed to repel the allies from the beaches are assuredly going to make the eastern front collapse. The coastline is too big and even if you hold it ... southern France is open to an allied thrust from the south (which did happen) and if you commit too many troops you can have two forces pinning you togethor. You need too many troops for too little benifit.
Fall back fighting and draw your battle line on the rivers where the Allied naval strength is less.
Posted: 2002-12-02 08:51pm
by Raptor 597
tharkûn wrote:The allies were landing men by the 10 thousand, once the Americans held Cherbourg its a given that France is going to fall and you are screwed. Your best shot at a delaying action is in small units in defensive positions with a mobile force able to go hotspot jumping. That won't buy you much time and the forces needed to repel the allies from the beaches are assuredly going to make the eastern front collapse. The coastline is too big and even if you hold it ... southern France is open to an allied thrust from the south (which did happen) and if you commit too many troops you can have two forces pinning you togethor. You need too many troops for too little benifit.
Fall back fighting and draw your battle line on the rivers where the Allied naval strength is less.
Yeah, it'll work. Screcth the Western Allies' supply lines thin then start whacking the Hell out of them. The Bulge could of worked if Hitler had the oil or bad weather which he needed. However, neither lasted long enough.
Posted: 2002-12-02 09:02pm
by Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader
A couple of words.
Thrawn.
AT-ATs.
ISDIIs.
TIEs.
Darktroopers.
400000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 tons of cow crap.
300000 bulldozers.
6000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 rabbits.
Does this even make snese?
Posted: 2002-12-02 09:05pm
by Mike_6002
Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader wrote:A couple of words.
Thrawn.
AT-ATs.
ISDIIs.
TIEs.
Darktroopers.
400000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 tons of cow crap.
300000 bulldozers.
6000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 rabbits.
Does this even make snese?
Fucking Spammer
Posted: 2002-12-02 09:08pm
by Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader
Mike_6002 wrote:Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader wrote:A couple of words.
Thrawn.
AT-ATs.
ISDIIs.
TIEs.
Darktroopers.
400000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 tons of cow crap.
300000 bulldozers.
6000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 rabbits.
Does this even make snese?
Oops.
I have a tendency to spam. Sorry guys.
It must be that time of year: Geek time.
Fucking Spammer
Posted: 2002-12-02 09:10pm
by Mike_6002
Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader wrote:Mike_6002 wrote:Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader wrote:A couple of words.
Thrawn.
AT-ATs.
ISDIIs.
TIEs.
Darktroopers.
400000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 tons of cow crap.
300000 bulldozers.
6000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 rabbits.
Does this even make snese?
Oops.
I have a tendency to spam. Sorry guys.
It must be that time of year: Geek time.
Fucking Spammer
You fucking little anal whore
Posted: 2002-12-02 09:12pm
by Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader
Mike_6002 wrote:Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader wrote:Mike_6002 wrote:
Oops.
I have a tendency to spam. Sorry guys.
It must be that time of year: Geek time.
Fucking Spammer
You fucking little anal whore
Watch your tongue. I was trying to be funny.
If somewhat unsucessfully.
Posted: 2002-12-02 09:13pm
by Raptor 597
Mike_6002 wrote:Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader wrote:Mike_6002 wrote:
Oops.
I have a tendency to spam. Sorry guys.
It must be that time of year: Geek time.
Fucking Spammer
You fucking little anal whore
Both of you stop spamming & counter spamming. Get back off topic and delete this spam.
Posted: 2002-12-02 09:13pm
by Mike_6002
Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader wrote:Mike_6002 wrote:Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader wrote:
You fucking little anal whore
Watch your tongue. I was trying to be funny.
If somewhat unsucessfully.
Get back on topic!!!!!!