Would you kill Younglings?

[FTeik]

I didn't say they did, I was pointing out that Anakin's did not indicate he was evil, they showed that he was human like the rest of us. And being tortured to death by a small collective is different then being assasinated by a rogue individual.

I rather like to keep 'human like the rest of us' away from being an excuse for being a genocidal ass responsible for the deaths of countless billions. The rest of us have not done that.

Tell that to the Indians. The Jews. The people in Serbia. The people in Tibet. Hutus and Tutsi. The Armenians. The native inhabitans of Belgish Congo. We can go back to the bible with Ammonites and Philistans.

If we like it or not the potential for becoming a "genocidal ass" seems to be much more part of human nature, than we like to admit.

[NecronLord]

IIRC, Yoda sensed the event as it happened in AOTC, but didn't know what exactly caused it.

Edi

If he didn't investigate, it was because of his own ineptitude. Hearing Qui-Gon shout "Anakin! Nooo!" Through the force and various other dark side stuff related to Skywalker would at least get me to send someone to look into the matter. Even with a war on.

It's this kind of thing that supposedly got the "Will of the Force" to want them destroyed. They simply started sucking ass too much, while the Sith were becoming far more powerful. Unbalanced.

[Trooper TK12746]

Fact is, the Sith are evil. Their crimes are inexcuseable.

The Sith's aims are: the spreading of their philosophy, the destruction of the Order (Jedi Order) that has almost exterminated them three times, and establishing unquestioned authority throughout the galaxy.

The Jedi aims are: spreading their philosophy, destroying the Order that has attempted to exterminate them three times (Sith Order), and keeping unquestioned authority over the galaxy (ROTS showed they felt that they didn't have to answer to the Chancellor or the Senate, even before they knew he was a Sith).

If the Sith are evil, the Jedi are as well.

We know fewer of the Jedi atrocities since the movies and EU focus mainly on the time when the SIth were rising, ruling, or had already disappeared.

Major Jedi atrocity: Slaughter of the Mandelorians. This occured shortly before TPM and caused Jedi Master Dooku to leave the Jedi Order.

[NecronLord]

Tell that to the Indians. The Jews. The people in Serbia. The people in Tibet. Hutus and Tutsi. The Armenians. The native inhabitans of Belgish Congo. We can go back to the bible with Ammonites and Philistans.

If we like it or not the potential for becoming a "genocidal ass" seems to be much more part of human nature, than we like to admit.

Irrelevant. The persons responsible were preforming evil acts, and should have been prevented and/or punished. As should Anakin Skywalker. Saying "It's Human" is not an excuse for unethical behaviour.

[Imperial Overlord]

Tell that to the Indians. The Jews. The people in Serbia. The people in Tibet. Hutus and Tutsi. The Armenians. The native inhabitans of Belgish Congo. We can go back to the bible with Ammonites and Philistans.

If we like it or not the potential for becoming a "genocidal ass" seems to be much more part of human nature, than we like to admit.

Sure human beings commit genocide. We consider it one of the vilest crimes possible. We call the people who do it evil. We don't excuse them with relativistic bullshit.

[Trooper TK12746]

But humans do commit genocide, which was my point. And only some people consider it a vile crime. Most of those atrocities were commited with the full support of the local and/or national governements.

[NecronLord]

The Sith's aims are: the spreading of their philosophy, the destruction of the Order (Jedi Order) that has almost exterminated them three times, and establishing unquestioned authority throughout the galaxy.

Where did you get that from? The Sith's aim (note, not what their doctrine says) is to cause suffering. They do this with casual glee at the slightest provocation. The Sith do not seek to spread their ideology beyond their own order. They seek to rule over others, using fear, terror, and general assholishness. They have always done this. Thankfully, the GFFA is now free of the Sith Order, and will never have to put up with them again.

The Jedi aims are: spreading their philosophy, destroying the Order that has attempted to exterminate them three times (Sith Order), and keeping unquestioned authority over the galaxy (ROTS showed they felt that they didn't have to answer to the Chancellor or the Senate, even before they knew he was a Sith).

Incorrect. These Jedi were exterminated by the Will of the Force for this betrayal of their ideals, and replaced with new Jedi. Similarly, there is 0 doubt that the Jedi intended to hand over control to the people as soon as Palpatine's cronies were eliminated. The Jedi always aimed to serve the greatest good.

If the Sith are evil, the Jedi are as well.

Because of course, one incident that was done in perfect faith by a degenerate jedi order is somehow equal to thousands upon thousands of years of Sith Opression.

We know fewer of the Jedi atrocities since the movies and EU focus mainly on the time when the SIth were rising, ruling, or had already disappeared.

Major Jedi atrocity: Slaughter of the Mandelorians. This occured shortly before TPM and caused Jedi Master Dooku to leave the Jedi Order.

What you obviously have managed to miss entirely is that the Jedi of the prequel era are degenerated Jedi who have drifted from the thousands of years of selfless service that characterises the Jedi order. You know, as opposed to the thousands of years of evil opression that characterises the Sith?

[Civil War Man]

This is a false dilemma. In real-life, you are influenced by your environment, your upbringing, and other factors beyond your control, but you can still make "free" choices in the sense that you are responsible for them. It would be the same with the Force; while the Dark Side might influence you, it does not control you. You ultimately still make choices. In ROTJ, Vader felt that he was too far gone, but as we eventually saw, he was incorrect.

On this note (about being influenced by a number of sources)...

I personally don't buy the whole Sith domination thing, but I am of the opinion that Palpatine could use the Force to corral Anakin down the path he wanted.

One of the insidious things about the infamous mind trick is that it does not necessarily dominate the person's will and force them to do something against their good sense. Outrageous commands and confident, strong-willed people result in failed mind tricks. The way I've viewed mind tricks is that it plants the desired outcome into the person's mind, structured as if it was their idea to begin with. A person with a weak will (such as Anakin in his emotionally unstable condition post-Mace's death) might end up seeing the idea as a good one, and go along with it.

But, as I mentioned, outrageous commands wouldn't work, so Anakin needed to be predisposed to the Dark Side in order for it to work. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Palpatine was thinking "Well, Windu's dead, so we don't have a lot of time. Let me just give Anakin a nudge in the right direction..."

[FTeik]

Tell that to the Indians. The Jews. The people in Serbia. The people in Tibet. Hutus and Tutsi. The Armenians. The native inhabitans of Belgish Congo. We can go back to the bible with Ammonites and Philistans.

If we like it or not the potential for becoming a "genocidal ass" seems to be much more part of human nature, than we like to admit.

Sure human beings commit genocide. We consider it one of the vilest crimes possible. We call the people who do it evil. We don't excuse them with relativistic bullshit.

Read my posts again. I'm not talking about one crime excusing the other. I'm talking about human nature.

About the Jedi being evil, i could add the Kalesh, probabely the original race of the Sith (weren't they whipped out by the Republic?) and Timetables at TheForce.net mentions at least another species, that was exterminated by the Jedi. And why are groups like the Fallanasi in hiding, even before the Sith return?

[Trooper TK12746]

The Sith's aims are: the spreading of their philosophy, the destruction of the Order (Jedi Order) that has almost exterminated them three times, and establishing unquestioned authority throughout the galaxy.

Where did you get that from? The Sith's aim (note, not what their doctrine says) is to cause suffering. They do this with casual glee at the slightest provocation. The Sith do not seek to spread their ideology beyond their own order. They seek to rule over others, using fear, terror, and general assholishness. They have always done this. Thankfully, the GFFA is now free of the Sith Order, and will never have to put up with them again.

They use the Darkside. Where do the SIth exhibit glee in killing innocents? They exhibit glee in killing hated enemies, but thats because they aren't emotionless rocks. And the Jedi steal children away at night and destroy anyone who disagrees with them or their aims. They just do it more like the Gestapo.

The Jedi aims are: spreading their philosophy, destroying the Order that has attempted to exterminate them three times (Sith Order), and keeping unquestioned authority over the galaxy (ROTS showed they felt that they didn't have to answer to the Chancellor or the Senate, even before they knew he was a Sith).[,quote]

Incorrect. These Jedi were exterminated by the Will of the Force for this betrayal of their ideals, and replaced with new Jedi. Similarly, there is 0 doubt that the Jedi intended to hand over control to the people as soon as Palpatine's cronies were eliminated. The Jedi always aimed to serve the greatest good.

And how were the new Jedi different from the new Jedi (excluding marriage and a higher turnout of Darksiders)? They followed the same basic philosophy as the old order, they just didn't last long enough to accumulate the same power the old order did. And the NJO had pretty much dissolved by "The Unifying Force"

If the Sith are evil, the Jedi are as well.

Because of course, one incident that was done in perfect faith by a degenerate jedi order is somehow equal to thousands upon thousands of years of Sith Opression.

The Sith never ruled for more than a few decades (after the collapse of the old Sith Empire, which we don't know much about). The JEdi stole children and wiped out opposition (in a fashion like the Gestapo) to their beliefs and aims for thousands of years. The fact that people were clapping when they heard the JEdi were going to hunted down tells you something.

We know fewer of the Jedi atrocities since the movies and EU focus mainly on the time when the SIth were rising, ruling, or had already disappeared.

Major Jedi atrocity: Slaughter of the Mandelorians. This occured shortly before TPM and caused Jedi Master Dooku to leave the Jedi Order.

What you obviously have managed to miss entirely is that the Jedi of the prequel era are degenerated Jedi who have drifted from the thousands of years of selfless service that characterises the Jedi order. You know, as opposed to the thousands of years of evil opression that characterises the Sith?
The Sith have never had thousands of years of rule. Your are coming up with excuses for the Jedi, what indications do you have that they were any different before the PT trilogy? If anything, they were more Sithlike than the PT Jedi.

[NecronLord]

They use the Darkside. Where do the SIth exhibit glee in killing innocents?

Palpatine's grand plan is to kill EVERYONE. It's shit, but it is also canon.

That big one out of the way, let's start by the Sith sponsoring such atrocities as General Greivous' murder of trillions of people via BDZ, the planned elimination of the Gungans, and countless other examples from the EU I'm either unfamiliar with, or haven't bothered to read in a while.

They exhibit glee in killing hated enemies, but thats because they aren't emotionless rocks. And the Jedi steal children away at night and destroy anyone who disagrees with them or their aims. They just do it more like the Gestapo.

Examples? Whie, for example, was indeed stolen, but I don't reacll his mother being 'destroyed' - tormented and abused by Dooku, yes, but destroyed by the Jedi? I don't think so. I want examples of this 'destroy their enemies' - not counting military or criminal forces. Fucking hell, Obi-Wan asked for General Grievous' Surrender in the novellisation - Greivous is certainly guilty of the slaughter of trillions. I wouldn't show that kind of restraint.

And how were the new Jedi different from the new Jedi (excluding marriage and a higher turnout of Darksiders)? They followed the same basic philosophy as the old order, they just didn't last long enough to accumulate the same power the old order did.

The same basic philosophy, excluding baby stealing, corruption, and setting one's selves up as decree-ers of Martial Law.

And the NJO had pretty much dissolved by "The Unifying Force"

The NJO can take a long run off a short peir. The Unifying Force stuff is all character opinion. As far as I am concerned it is to be considered a delusion until they write the Force itself stating that there is no Light or Dark side..

The Sith never ruled for more than a few decades (after the collapse of the old Sith Empire, which we don't know much about).

Remind me again, what did they do in this time?

The JEdi stole children and wiped out opposition (in a fashion like the Gestapo)

Oh for fuck's sake. 1- The Sith steal kids. And they do steal them. Killing the parents in the process. Maul anyone? 2 - The use of the word Gestapo is not going to convince me that the Jedi are somehow evil. And I should hope no one else here. Give evidence shitmind.

to their beliefs and aims for thousands of years.

Would this be before or after handing over these 'opponents' to the Republic courts?

The fact that people were clapping when they heard the JEdi were going to hunted down tells you something.

After being fed a tissue of lies about a Jedi rebellion, having been supplied manipulated data for the last decade or so by a Sith Lord. And we don't know how many of those were like Padme. Clapping out of fear of being labelled a traitor.

The Sith have never had thousands of years of rule. Your are coming up with excuses for the Jedi, what indications do you have that they were any different before the PT trilogy? If anything, they were more Sithlike than the PT Jedi.

The Sith have existed for millenia. In that time they have done nothing good, and plenty of evil. The fact that they have not ruled (hint, neither did the Jedi) doesn't mean they can't oppress people.

What indications do we have about the differences in the pre-PT jedi? Fucking hell. How about the fact that Yoda is continuously going on about how overconfient and self righteous they've become?

[Noble Ire]

We know fewer of the Jedi atrocities since the movies and EU focus mainly on the time when the SIth were rising, ruling, or had already disappeared.

Major Jedi atrocity: Slaughter of the Mandelorians. This occured shortly before TPM and caused Jedi Master Dooku to leave the Jedi Order.

Even the heavily flawed Jedi at the end of the Old Republic didnt committ "atrocities" (I'm not aware of the specifics of the Mandalorian one, and I dont know of any others that werent acts of wartime.)

The Sith on the other hand:
-BDZed Taris to kill one Jedi knight, killing trillions of innocents.
-Drained the lives of an entire world just to stay alive (namely Darth Nihilus)
-Slaughtered the Jedi, including children (act of war partially, not as injustifiable as others)
-Enslaved hundreds of races (Mon Calamari, Talz, Wookiees) and obliterated others (Kiffar, Firrerro, various genocides committed by outer rim slave ships)

And those are only a few actions of just three sith lords.

[Lord Pounder]

Yoda said it himself in RotJ, "Once you start down the path of the Darkside, forever will it hold your destiny" Added to the basic nature of the Force, as questioned by Luke and answered by Kenobi in ANH "Does it control your actions? Parcialy, But it also obeys your commands".

My theory is that the Darkside is a wee bit like the Ring of Power from LOTR, it does a more than partly controling you actions, I think that it makes pretty big demands and while not strong enough to take over, it can cloud your judgement untill killing a group of kids seems like a grand idea, when Anakin confronts the younglings he's in the midst of drawing pretty heavily on the Force and is using his negative feelings to fuel it, I'd say the Darkside had a pretty strong hold on him by this point.

[Trooper TK12746]

I wouldn't take anything Yoda or Obi-Wan say at face value, especially concerning the darkside. They are a wee bit biased in that regard. They were trying to make it so Luke believed Vader was iredeemable and that the Darkside was pure evil.

The Jedi killed all the Mandalorians in a completely unjustifiable atrocity. This is what made Jango Fett the last of the Mandelorians, he killed seven jedi with his bare hands during that massacre.

Of course you see more Sith atrocities, you start off in most of the games (except for TIE Fighter, Galactic Battlegrounds, and Star Wars BattleFront) fighting for the Jedi/Republic. When you fight as the Empire or the Sith, your cause seems just. Both sides omit things to make their side seem better. Given the decidedly Pro-Republic/Jedi stance of the EU, it would come as no suprise that they omit Jedi atrocities. Look at Kyp Durron, he blew up three or four Imperial star systems and accidently killed his own brother. Or what about when the Jedi wiped out the Sith order? Including their young ones? It was merely eliminating a potential threat. And may I remind you that the Sith were originally an entire race, that the Jedi exterminated. And most of the races you named were in active rebellion against the Sith/Empire or aided known traitors and fugitives. They were not innocent people.

[Noble Ire]

Given the decidedly Pro-Republic/Jedi stance of the EU, it would come as no suprise that they omit Jedi atrocities.

There is no reason to believe that the Jedi committed any atrocities (give me a source for the Mandalorian thing, I'm not buying it.)

Look at Kyp Durron, he blew up three or four Imperial star systems and accidently killed his own brother.

Hmm, when he did that, guess who's long dead spirit was directly controling him. Thats right, the spirit of a Sith Lord.

And may I remind you that the Sith were originally an entire race, that the Jedi exterminated.

Thats wrong and you know it. The Sith species was assimilated into the society of dark Jedi who broke from the order and eventually became the Sith. The Jedi had nothing to do with their extiniction.

[Danny Bhoy]

Frankly I was hoping to hear a better explanation for that line in ROTJ. You have the fall of Anakin Skywalker being the result of a bad roll of the dice of a saving throw (to continue the RPG analalogy) instead of a free willed choice to be evil. I know which one I think is more tragic.

Why bother making their apprentice make a choice - Palpatine to Anakin "Anakin you MUST choose!" as he's being fried by his own lightning. In ROTJ "Take your weapon and strike me down with all of your hate." Every instance he wants his potential apprentice to join willingly.

NOT

Palpatine: "Hold on a second." *Palpatine waves his hand at Luke* "You will be my apprentice."

Luke: "No, I won't." *Palpatine waves his hand again*

Palpatine: "You will turn to the Darkside."

Luke: "Nuhuh."

Palpatine smiles and waves his hand again

Palpatine: "Eventually you will be mine, you can't keep rolling that well forever."

I think the ROTJ novelisation put it best:

"He will come to me?", Vader asked skeptically...
"Of his own free will," the Emperor asssured him. It must be of his own free will, else all was lost. A spirit could not be coerced into corruption, it had to be seduced. It had to participate actively. It had to crave.

[Patrick Degan]

Seriously, Anakin has made his pledge of allegiance. He is a Sith now and the Jedi are the enemy. If he hadn't killed the younglings as children he would have been forced to fight them one day in the future when they are grown up. The attempt of Palpatine and Anakin to eliminate as many (possible) threats to them in one big swoop is pure Machiavelli (certainly the GFFA and the Jedi are aware of similar concepts).

Let's play a little word-substitution game, shall we:

Seriously, Heinrich has made his pledge of allegiance. He is an American now and the Germans are the enemy. If he hadn't killed the little German children huddled together in all those village schoolhouses he would have been forced to fight them one day in the future when they are grown up. The attempt of Eisenhower and Heinrich to eliminate as many (possible) threats to them in one big swoop is pure Machiavelli (certainly the United States Army and Nazi Germany are aware of similar concepts).

Americans = evil Sith?
Germans = "good" Jedi?

I wasn't aware, that Germans and Americans are on opposite sites of a moral spectrum (contrary to Jedi and Sith), making them natural enemies.

Did you or did you not say this:

Why are Anakin's actions evil?

The purpose of the word-substitution example given was to point out the idiocy of the justification argument you tried to float. Since you decided to defend Anakin's actions by questioning the moral judgement against them and to pin that defence on his P.O.V., it seemed appropriate to reach for an analogy which would illustrate graphically just how flawed that sort of logic actually is.

[General Brock]

... We know that the slaughter of the Younglings can partially be rationalized as a logical progression from a man that can slaughter a village of men, women and children out of rage. Coupled with that is the driving urge to protect Padme.

Now I ask you. Would you slaughter children - hell would you kill a single child to protect your wife/GF from a nebulous threat? If someone told you "Your wife might die in the coming weeks. Here's this eight year old, slit her throat and it won't happen." would you?

...

Just as we can say that Anakin still had good in him when he turned as Vader I suggest that Anakin always had evil in him for being able to justify to himself the slaughter of children - Tuskin or otherwise.

Slaughter innocent children? Probably not, not for anybody, but then I've never been that angry or messed up, and in a situation where such a 'threat' could possibly be perceived to exist, or have to prove loyalty to a cause by some sort of initiation murder, like gangs sometimes do.

In any case, there are, or would be, not-quite-apprentice Sith force users; the Emperor's Hand(s?), and Executor Sedress and his acolytes. The Younglings aren't full Jedi, and technically not covered by Palpatine's extermination order. Anakin could have spared the children; most were young enough to still be malleable. Instead, he seems to hate their innocence and despises them for being a reminder of what he is becoming; he seemed caught off guard when he walked into the council chamber, and the kid asked him what to do, reminding him of how trusted and respected a Jedi he once was. He seems to not know how to handle personal embarassment or shame; with Padme, with Obi-Wan, with the Jedi Council, and with Younglings.

If he were truly partly motivated to defy the supposedly evil Jedi, he might have given some thought to 'saving' the children, advising the Younglings to trust him and surrender. Anakin lashed out at them; he didn't think through sacking the Jedi temple enough to have a plan for what to do with the Younglings, so his default seems to be mindless violence. The younglings were also pretty dangerous; just one of them took down a few clonetroopers in that scene with Bail Organa, so it would have made sense to try and trick them into surrendering, and let Uncle Palpatine decide what to do with them. Most of the adult and adolescent Jedi, the knights and their padawans, seemed to have been dead by that point, so Vader/Skywalker was the only authority figure left for the Younglings anyway.

Anakin's evil seems to be rooted in a more neutral psychological flaw, an inability to relate to people as other than objects for his own gratification. When he dosen't know what to do, and can't get what he wants, he lashes out in mindless frustration the same way a n00b might hit a machine or junk it for not working the way it should. Anakin is a sick man, wilfully prone to acts of evil, but I wouln't necessarily say he had good in him, except as the possibility that he might one day realize the flaws in his thinking and feeling, and wanting to correct them. Anakin claims to want to be something more than he is, even though he is in ROTS one of the best Jedi ever. He knows something is missing, and the external rewards of going through all the correct motions spectacularly well wasn't turning his crank any more.

Obi-Wan, in the novelization of the ANH duel, also mentioned that there was something missing in his former student; like the malice within Vader was unguided and borne of frustration rather than deliberate intent. Mace Windu seemed to sense it as well, when he refused to let Anakin join the arrest team; Anakin was in conflict because he couldn't differentiate between right and wrong beyond what pleased him and what didn't, and Windu, used to well-trained, well-formed Younglings, was averse to dealing with this lack of empathy. This might be why Jedi prefer to train children from infancy; they can spot and work out the flaws more easily, or at least paper them over more securely with Jedi dogma.

I don't know what Lucas was drawing his experience from when he wrote all this stuff; it might be intuitively drawn from shrewd observation; Hollywood is a mean place, by reputation. He might also have studied or talked about psychology with people in the field.

[MishaMcBride]

This is my first post after registering, (Hi! interesting forums you have ) and I think I might be dropping myself into hot water too soon. Oh well.

There is no reason to believe that the Jedi committed any atrocities (give me a source for the Mandalorian thing, I'm not buying it.)

From Battle of Galidraan

"The Battle of Galidraan was a conflict that led to the destruction of the Mandalorians by the Jedi. The Jedi were led by Master Dooku, with his last padawan Komari Vosa. The Mandalorians followed Jango Fett. The casualties on both sides were heavy, with Jango and Montross being the only surviving Mandalorians."

From History of the Mandalorians

"Jango's tenure as Mandalorian leader ended at the Battle of Galidraan, where a Jedi taskforce under the leadership of Master Dooku led to the death of every remaining Mandalorian, except for Jango."

From Jango Fett, EU

"Jango Fett was orphaned at an early age, the son of simple Concord Dawn farmers killed by brutal marauders. At the age of ten, he was picked up by Journeyman Protector Jaster Mereel, who introduced Fett to a harsh world of mercenary life. He was raised among great warriors, learning to survive in the rugged frontiers. Though the Mandalorian supercommandos were wiped out by the Jedi Knights, Jango was one of the few left to still wear the armor."

Let me know if these sources are not credible for purposes of proof, and I'll try to find more. I don't want to spam you with links and quotes.

The Jedi do seem to have a "if you are not with me you're against me" mentality. Even if you have the best intentions and the purest thoughts, that sort of attitude leads to atrocity.

As for Anakin going willfully or being controlled, I think its obvious he was just looking for an excuse to screw those Jedi that had been holding him back. He show such a huge sense of entitlement to what he wants and surety that he is so very right, and everyone else is so very wrong. He rants throughout the second and third movies about how they won't give him what he deserves and definintely insinuates "I'll show them some day". Don't forget the conversation he had with Padme in the second movie endorsing a dictatorship, "then someone should make them". Then there's Palpatine stroking his ego at every turn, telling him he's more powerful than Yoda and he deserves to be a Master, Anakin eats it up. His path to the Dark Side wasn't a sudden thing that occured when he cut off Mace Windu's hands, it was a long process that started long before he even got into Padme's pants.

[FTeik]

Did you or did you not say this:

Why are Anakin's actions evil?

I did. I also wrote the following:

After all by killing the younglings he caused them to become "one with the Force" as Yoda described it, so he should feel good, since he did them a favour. Hell, i wish the little green troll would have been there, when the clone-troopers invaded the temple so Anakin could have shoved Yoda's own words down his throat.

SERIOUSLY, ...

My attempt at sarcasm was obviously lost.

[NecronLord]

(except for TIE Fighter, Galactic Battlegrounds, and Star Wars BattleFront)

When did Sev'rance become a Sith, being the only dark side force user I recall in those games? Did I blink and miss it? And even she caused the starvation of billions on the orders of a Sith Lord. I forgot about that one.

And no, it sounds much more like the Mandalorians were killed off in combat with the Jedi. I see no reason to believe that they were defenceless, or that they weren't given ample opportunity to surrender. As for this Sith race 1 - The Jedi are not the republic, remember? 2 - I very much doubt they were deliberately destroyed by the Jedi Order.

[Cal Wright]

I'm just gonna post this after reading page 1 while it's fresh in my head.

The Tuskens coincide with the Jedi. Directly for the most part.

Anakin was afraid of losing his mother. When he found her, and she died, his fear lead to anger. See where this is going. So now he is angry about his mother dying, and now he hates those who killed her, or at least aided in her demise. Now he hates the Tuskens. Filled with hate and rage the dark side easily flows into him.

Now, let's move on. Anakin is afraid of losing Padme. He sees there is no help from the Jedi. They constantly want to keep him down when he knows full well, barring the chosen one prophecy, that he is more powerful then any of them. So he's afraid of losing his wife, and possibly his child, but more of his wife. Now he's faced with a decision. His one and only chance to save her, is at the wrong end of a lightsabre. One that happens to be in the hands of someone that he feels has tried to keep him from reaching his full potential. Now he's afraid of losing Padme, and Mace isn't listening to him. This is a huge snowball effect, because he's already been asked by the council to really go against thier code of conduct. While both sides are manipulating him, one side was a little more kinder about it, and is being proven right in his eyes at the moment. Back to the fear he feels. Anakin is now afraid of losing his wife. His pleas and reasoning are being thrown literally out the window. Now he's getting angry, and you wouldn't like him when he's angry. Which in turn is making him hate. (This happens incrediably quickly, but I'm sure everyone has had experiences where past memories just flash really fucking quickly). So now that he is fully hating Mace and the Jedi Order because they are effectively going to kill his wife, he is being filled with the dark side once again. In this he acts out of his hate. Even though he has a stark realisation of what happened, he's only thinking of himself and what he wants. Anger, hate, greed, jealosy, all of this leads to the dark side and he is completely consumed by all of it.

Anakin himself was a good person, but a combination of things caused him to lust for power. If any of you have read some of the 'prequel' comics, there's one about Anakin dreaming of becoming a Jedi, the most powerful Jedi and freeing the galaxy. So, while his heart originally was in the right place, he was always yearning for power.

[MishaMcBride]

And no, it sounds much more like the Mandalorians were killed off in combat with the Jedi. I see no reason to believe that they were defenceless, or that they weren't given ample opportunity to surrender.

I can accept that. I kept searching after I posted and I found several other sources that seemed to contradict each other about what the actual circumstances were. I may also be getting confused about the new Mandalorian force of commandos that were in combat with the Jedi and the original race of people who lived on Mandalore that were in conflict with the Old Republic after siding with the Sith. Or something.

As for this Sith race 1 - The Jedi are not the republic, remember? 2 - I very much doubt they were deliberately destroyed by the Jedi Order.

IIRC, The Sith were this primitive race that were strong in the Force, and the retreating Dark Jedi found them and settled there. The Sith race didn't exist in its original form by the time the Republic found them. They had interbred with the Dark Jedi and were totally corrupted. In fact, they as race just retreat into the unknown regions after the first war never to be seen again. The Sith lords after that appear when a Jedi rediscovers the ways of the Sith and then forms a new order or brotherhood or whatever of Dark Lords.

Hope I didn't go too off-topic here.

[Trooper TK12746]

The Mandalorians were acting as mercenaries on a side the Jedi opposed and were attacked and slaughtered for no reason by the Jedi. The Mandalorians fought back, but only after a portion of their number died. Sevrance Tan was never a Sith. She was a darksider and a Seperatist.

When the OR wiped out the Sith originally, the race was still distinct. And for a while, the Jedi represented a cruciel part of the OR military. Had they not been there, there was no way the OR could have pulled it off.