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Lord Poe wrote:While we know the Organas wanted to adopt a girl, there's no indication whether or not Leia had a stepbrother.

According the EU, she's an only child while raised by the Organas, at least as far as I can tell.

The Blockade Runner in ROTS was NOT the T4 from ANH.

We've covered that in other threads: it had at least one major refit in the nineteen-year span between films.

Lord Poe wrote:I have to point out that Vader does not need to gesture with his hands to use the Force. He didn't when choking Ozzel, and he didn't when ripping machinery off the walls in Cloud City to hurl at Luke.

From ROTS, we know:

The Blockade Runner in ROTS was NOT the T4 from ANH.

Did I miss this conclusion? I thought it was in fact meant to be the Tantive IV. Wher'd this come from?

It looks different.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:It looks different.

Ergo refit between films, not that it's a different vessel entirely.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:We've covered that in other threads: it had at least one major refit in the nineteen-year span between films.

I'm not going to argue in this thread, but there's no fucking way I'm buying that line of bullshit.

Obi-Wan was suprised and even made a defense move when Anakin jumped into the elevator. Probably due to standing next to Palpatine.

Yoda and Obi-Wan don't even attempt to reason with the Clone Troopers after Order 66.

Force field + metal cuffs on Palpatine. I kind of forgot how Anakin opened them...by hand?

Grand Moff Yenchin wrote:Force field + metal cuffs on Palpatine. I kind of forgot how Anakin opened them...by hand?

Anakin waved his hand over them and used the Force to unlock/open them.

The biggest problem with the refit theory is that the only difference (IIRC) between the T4 in ANH and the corvettes in ROTJ is that the T4 had turbolasers attached to the large dorsal escape pods. Why would all of the ships be refitted in the same way? Did the rebel alliance get all of its corvettes from the same owner, who had them all refitted the same way? Never mind the question of putting an entirely new hull section between the engines and the rest of the ship, and of altering the hanger area.

The intent, from what I've read of backstage stuff, would seem to be that that was the same ship, but the art department decided to play with the design extensively, and as a result we have sort of a weird continuity issue, as I'm guessing future works will continue to identify that ship as the same class that appears later despite the obvious differences.

I'm not going to argue in this thread, but there's no fucking way I'm buying that line of bullshit.

Now that´s just dumb. If you can believe the Enterprise and many of it´s ship-class getting extensive refits, why the aversion to the Tantive IV getting it?

As for the non-Jango clone troopers, the ICS says that numerous other quality clone stock samples were found and used for pilots. Stands to reason that they'd do the same with ground forces.

Palpatine's TK may not be more powerful. Think about it, Yoda was catching and then rotating (why rotate it I have no clue) the pod, before pushing the pod up. So Yoda had to decelerate the pod and then start spinning it. Hell the rotating motion may have come from Palpatine trying to push down on the pod once Yoda caught it.
All Palpatine had to do is lift and drop the pods and maybe give a little extra boost if you want.
I submit that it is more difficult to stop a falling pod and throw it back up than it is to lift them and drop them.

Yes it is. Brianyenci said that darkside TK was stronger than lightside TK because Palpatine's TK seemed stronger than Yoda's. I told him to stop being silly, that just because one A is better than B, it does not follow that all A's must be better than B's.

I was smacking down an obvious flaw in his thinking, not his interpretation of the scene.

Hell the rotating motion may have come from Palpatine trying to push down on the pod once Yoda caught it.

That was more or less my thinking. I first thought that Yoda was trying to spin it in order to get some cutting effect, like if you were to throw a CD at someone, but it seemed wasteful under the circumstances.

Just like today's use of explosives for entertainment purposes (fireworks in this case), the GFFA also uses forcefield technology (designed for military defense) for the entertainment of the higher-ups in Coruscanti society.

Lord Poe wrote:

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:We've covered that in other threads: it had at least one major refit in the nineteen-year span between films.

I'm not going to argue in this thread, but there's no fucking way I'm buying that line of bullshit.

For all intentions, it's supposed to be the exact same ship. I see nothing strange that the Tantive IV went through a major refit in the period between ROTS and ANH (the ICS for Episodes IV, V, & VI supports this idea, we know that the windows along the dorsal and ventral ridges was covered with armor plates and it's not a stretch to think that the engines also was modified). In any case, ROTS firmly establishes the 150 meter length of the Tantive IV and that was one of the things that I had been looking forward to.

It seems Palpatine has some form of emotional attachment to Anakin. If he was as evil as I felt he was he would have left him todie instead he had him rushed to help.

He can be evil and still have an attachment to Anakin, and the primary reason for him rushing to Anakin's aid would be a desire to not let all his hard work go to waste. Vader is still extremely useful.

My contribution:

Palpatine meticolously planned Anakin's conversion to the Dark Side, and had him thoroughly figured out. Consider: What is the point at which Anakin's journey to the Dark Side is complete? When he slices off Windu's hand. At that point, he is no longer a Jedi, can no longer go back to the Jedi Order. His only place is at Palpatine's side. Without that moment, he is not Darth Vader.

Now, throughout the fight with Windu, Palpatine is holding is own-until Anakin lands his shuttle nearby. Then, Palpatine suddenly is knocked off backwards by a kick, of all things- a kick which he should have seen coming, since his precog is not limited by the Dark Side Shroud- just moments before Anakin comes running in to his friend and mentor helpless before an angry and vengeful Windu. Now, despite Palpatine's feigned weakness and inability to resist Windu, the moment he sees Anakin is his, he unleashes his "UNLIMITED POWER" Force-lightning storm, which is so strong it blows Mace out of the window. Seconds later, he is on his feet, with no sign of fatigue or weakness. Later, he then fights Yoda to a draw, despite Yoda being a much faster, more difficult opponent than Mace (consider that Mace is only barely able to resist Palpatine's first lightning barrage with his lightsaber, but Yoda actually absorbs it and blows it back at him after a much longer and more strenous fight).

So Palpatine's planning was so good, he was not only able to manipulate broad political events, but the reactions of individuals- he was able to predict that Mace would come after him, and he was able to use it to his advantage when he sensed Anakin coming for him, knowing that Mace would try to kill him and that Anakin would prevent it, sealing the deal.

HemlockGrey wrote:
He can be evil and still have an attachment to Anakin, and the primary reason for him rushing to Anakin's aid would be a desire to not let all his hard work go to waste. Vader is still extremely useful.

My contribution:

Palpatine meticolously planned Anakin's conversion to the Dark Side, and had him thoroughly figured out. Consider: What is the point at which Anakin's journey to the Dark Side is complete? When he slices off Windu's hand. At that point, he is no longer a Jedi, can no longer go back to the Jedi Order. His only place is at Palpatine's side. Without that moment, he is not Darth Vader.

Now, throughout the fight with Windu, Palpatine is holding is own-until Anakin lands his shuttle nearby. Then, Palpatine suddenly is knocked off backwards by a kick, of all things- a kick which he should have seen coming, since his precog is not limited by the Dark Side Shroud- just moments before Anakin comes running in to his friend and mentor helpless before an angry and vengeful Windu. Now, despite Palpatine's feigned weakness and inability to resist Windu, the moment he sees Anakin is his, he unleashes his "UNLIMITED POWER" Force-lightning storm, which is so strong it blows Mace out of the window. Seconds later, he is on his feet, with no sign of fatigue or weakness. Later, he then fights Yoda to a draw, despite Yoda being a much faster, more difficult opponent than Mace (consider that Mace is only barely able to resist Palpatine's first lightning barrage with his lightsaber, but Yoda actually absorbs it and blows it back at him after a much longer and more strenous fight).

So Palpatine's planning was so good, he was not only able to manipulate broad political events, but the reactions of individuals- he was able to predict that Mace would come after him, and he was able to use it to his advantage when he sensed Anakin coming for him, knowing that Mace would try to kill him and that Anakin would prevent it, sealing the deal.

I always figured that Uncle Palpy just knew how to take advantage of events as they happened. World's better than just trying to control everything.

Also I didn't mean that Palpy isn't evil just that there is some good in him.

I always figured that Uncle Palpy just knew how to take advantage of events as they happened. World's better than just trying to control everything.

Also I didn't mean that Palpy isn't evil just that there is some good in him.

Than what is he going to use as the catalyst to turn Anakin to the Dark Side? What's his point of no return? Simply being the last Jedi standing? No, I think Palpatine planned the showdown all along.

And I never saw any good in Palpatine. Everything he did, he did to further his own quest for power. Even saving Vader was merely so he could salvage his top lieutenant and extend his grip over the galaxy.

Oh, and a couple of other things:

The Wookies trust Yoda implicitly. Chewie and his companion don't even question Yoda's killing of the Clone soldiers.

Also, the Emperor has clearly been working behind the scenes for some time to implement the apparatus of Empire. He already has some of his personal retainers, as well as his Red Guards, and the classic "British Officer" warship staff.

HemlockGrey wrote:Also, the Emperor has clearly been working behind the scenes for some time to implement the apparatus of Empire. He already has some of his personal retainers, as well as his Red Guards, and the classic "British Officer" warship staff.

This only makes sense. Better to get the machinery of the Empire in place and then declare it, the better to eliminate troublemakers.

If any of these have been mentioned I apologise:

-Creatures exist in the SW Galaxy that are tough bastards. The large lizard Obi Wan rides on as an example.

-Lightsabers have some weird properties! Yoda threw his saber, impaled a clone trooper and the blade stuck in the trooper armor before pulling it out. The blade stayed active while out of Yoda's hand when every lightsaber I can recall that has fallen from a Jedi's grip has deactivated (or been damaged).

-

Darth Fanboy wrote: -Lightsabers have some weird properties! Yoda threw his saber, impaled a clone trooper and the blade stuck in the trooper armor before pulling it out. The blade stayed active while out of Yoda's hand when every lightsaber I can recall that has fallen from a Jedi's grip has deactivated (or been damaged).

Light sabres staying on are nothing new, some are built with a dead-mans switch so they turn off, some aren't.

Some like Neeja Halcyon's sabre require a quick double press of the button to turn off, to prevent accidental deactivation in combat.

BUt the lightsabre getting stuck was interesting.

I noticed this in the AOTC Revelations page:

The cost of raising a clone from birth is prohibitive, and can be explained only through Palpatine's need for secrecy. A normal conscript costs the Republic nothing until he is recruited, whereupon he will undergo a few months of training and be ready for active service. A clone, on the other hand, must be bred, fed, raised, and trained from birth: a ten year long process. Each clone costs orders of magnitude more than a conscript. However, the clones can be purchased and trained in secrecy, so that they can be suddenly revealed with no warning. Without the clone army, Palpatine would have had to gain emergency powers and then start a public military recruiting program that would not bear fruit for months!

Another benefit appears to be that the Clones are loyal to Palpatine, not the Republic. They destroyed the Jedi without any Senate confirmation or consultation, they addressed Palpatine as "My Lord", and they drove one of the most important Senators (Bail Organa) away from the Jedi Temple with only a cursory explanation of their presence.

Durandal wrote:"Turning to the Dark Side" is a long process that culminates in one discrete moment where the Jedi in question metamorphoses into a completely different person. Up until that time, the Jedi is still capable of doing good things and such.

This is actually a revelation only to those who either haven't played the SWRPG (at least the d6 version) or who believe that the SWRPG doesn't represent the "real" Star Wars. In the RPG, acts of evil gain "Dark Side Points," and a character who gains dark side points must roll against his DSP total to avoid being thrown over to the Dark Side; at some point the conversion is simply inevitable because the character's soul/Force essence/whatever is too heavily stained to absorb further evil without fully becoming evil. At that point, the rules say that the character is supposed to be given to the GM to be played as a villain, though the 2nd Edition softens the rules to allow a player to continue to play a fallen Jedi through redemption (though the feasability of this is questionable since, as we saw in Anakin, once one becomes consumed by the Dark Side, redemption is at best a fleeting dream and more likely something that the Dark character will never even consider).

2000AD wrote:- Clones can be sloppy, such as Kodee not bothering to check for Obi-Wans body, despite the Jedi regularly showing super human abilities.
OR
Not as likely, but the clones are capable of having emotion and/or independant free will. Kodee had served with Obiwan before and may have been his friend, therefore deliberately called off any further seach for his body.

Actually, they were trying very hard to find Obi Wan, but he's a slippery bastard. It just didn't show much in the movie itself, but it was very much a part of the novelization.

Petrosjko wrote:

2000AD wrote:- Clones can be sloppy, such as Kodee not bothering to check for Obi-Wans body, despite the Jedi regularly showing super human abilities.
OR
Not as likely, but the clones are capable of having emotion and/or independant free will. Kodee had served with Obiwan before and may have been his friend, therefore deliberately called off any further seach for his body.

Actually, they were trying very hard to find Obi Wan, but he's a slippery bastard. It just didn't show much in the movie itself, but it was very much a part of the novelization.

OK, didn't know that.

Alan Bolte wrote:The biggest problem with the refit theory is that the only difference (IIRC) between the T4 in ANH and the corvettes in ROTJ is that the T4 had turbolasers attached to the large dorsal escape pods. Why would all of the ships be refitted in the same way? Did the rebel alliance get all of its corvettes from the same owner, who had them all refitted the same way? Never mind the question of putting an entirely new hull section between the engines and the rest of the ship, and of altering the hanger area.

The intent, from what I've read of backstage stuff, would seem to be that that was the same ship, but the art department decided to play with the design extensively, and as a result we have sort of a weird continuity issue, as I'm guessing future works will continue to identify that ship as the same class that appears later despite the obvious differences.

There were other differences as well, the blockade runner model in ROTJ had windows cut out along its dorsal and ventral spine. The T4 had those in ROTS and the OT ICS (as I've explained earlier) states that these windows were covered on the T4 before ANH

Why is the ship having a been refitted sometine in the next 20 years such a problem? IF a US Navy vessel had beeen in service that long and never had any refits or upgrades would that not be a little odd?