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Sea Skimmer wrote:So you plan is "Lets leave our men for dead with a brutal enemy when where one mile away with more the enough firepower and mobility to drive up, load wounded and leave."

Except that you don't have enough firepower and mobility to drive up, load wounded, and leave. That's why they took heavy casualties and got pinned down overnight.

Like I said. Doing so will destroy moral and faith in leadership and thus combat effectiveness to a far greater degree then the loss of a few additional men.

I can't really say what effect it would have on morale and faith in leadership, since I'm not a soldier and I've never seen combat. But neither can you. I can say that sacrificing many men to save a few is not logical.

Funny how war is like that.

Ted wrote: And if they loose a guy, there's always the option of blowing the body to kingdom come if you're behind the enemies lines.

Ummm, why?

Darth Wong wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:So you plan is "Lets leave our men for dead with a brutal enemy when where one mile away with more the enough firepower and mobility to drive up, load wounded and leave."

Except that you don't have enough firepower and mobility to drive up, load wounded, and leave. That's why they took heavy casualties and got pinned down overnight.

The problem was they got lost. A force five times larger with Bradley's could have been cut apart if it drove in circles for long enough.

Darth Wong wrote: I can't really say what effect it would have on morale and faith in leadership, since I'm not a soldier and I've never seen combat. But neither can you. I can say that sacrificing many men to save a few is not logical.

Since when is emotion logical? I can however quote my father, veteran of Veitnam and over a decade in the military. "We didn't leave our guys behind. That was just the way it was."

Darth Wong wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:So you plan is "Lets leave our men for dead with a brutal enemy when where one mile away with more the enough firepower and mobility to drive up, load wounded and leave."

Except that you don't have enough firepower and mobility to drive up, load wounded, and leave. That's why they took heavy casualties and got pinned down overnight.

Like I said. Doing so will destroy moral and faith in leadership and thus combat effectiveness to a far greater degree then the loss of a few additional men.

I can't really say what effect it would have on morale and faith in leadership, since I'm not a soldier and I've never seen combat. But neither can you. I can say that sacrificing many men to save a few is not logical.

There is a danger of this turning into a Debate of absolutes. It sounds like the decision was made on the ground. With the info the CO had he decided he could divert to the crash sites and having gotten his men he could continue to his mission objectives. With hindsight he may have made a different decision. All I know is that I'm glad I wasn't the one to give the orders - if the Crash was enroute to my objective, then I'd have waited until I was at the point of diversion from route and done an assessment - if it wasn't then I'd have requested HQ to mount a rescue and got on with my job. If they die because of my decision then I live with it (that's why they pay you to make decisions). That's why training missions have no-win scenario's built-in to prepare you for making the tough choices.

Rob Wilson wrote:

Ted wrote: And if they loose a guy, there's always the option of blowing the body to kingdom come if you're behind the enemies lines.

Ummm, why?

For identification purposes, if the enemy got hold of the body, they could discover who the attackers were.

Ted wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote:

Ted wrote: And if they loose a guy, there's always the option of blowing the body to kingdom come if you're behind the enemies lines.

Ummm, why?

For identification purposes, if the enemy got hold of the body, they could discover who the attackers were.

IN a normal conflict the opposing sides tend to know who their opponent is.
If it's a covert op the dead body wouldn't have carried any ID on them. So why are you wasting Dets on a corpse?

Rob Wilson wrote:

Ted wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote: Ummm, why?

For identification purposes, if the enemy got hold of the body, they could discover who the attackers were.

IN a normal conflict the opposing sides tend to know who their opponent is.
If it's a covert op the dead body wouldn't have carried any ID on them. So why are you wasting Dets on a corpse?

The lack of the ability to take the dead body away, even though they have no ID on them, doesn't mean they can't be ID'd.

Ted wrote: The lack of the ability to take the dead body away, even though they have no ID on them, doesn't mean they can't be ID'd.

He's got a point. Dental work can ID where they came from......like say...
Britain....(by it's shittiness)

But this would only apply in super-hush-hush secret ops

Ted wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote:

Ted wrote:For identification purposes, if the enemy got hold of the body, they could discover who the attackers were.

IN a normal conflict the opposing sides tend to know who their opponent is.

If it's a covert op the dead body wouldn't have carried any ID on them. So why are you wasting Dets on a corpse?

The lack of the ability to take the dead body away, even though they have no ID on them, doesn't mean they can't be ID'd.

And blowing them up does? All that does is scatter the identifying bits around, not remove them completely.

Again, why blow up a corpse? You're just being silly

[Nested quoting fixed- DW]

Rob Wilson wrote:

Ted wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote: IN a normal conflict the opposing sides tend to know who their opponent is.

If it's a covert op the dead body wouldn't have carried any ID on them. So why are you wasting Dets on a corpse?

The lack of the ability to take the dead body away, even though they have no ID on them, doesn't mean they can't be ID'd.

And blowing them up does? All that does is scatter the identifying bits around, not remove them completely.

Again, why blow up a corpse? You're just being silly

[Nested quoting fixed- DW]

If you blow the corpse up with like 20 pund of PE, then the body can't be identified.

Ted wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote:

Ted wrote: And if they loose a guy, there's always the option of blowing the body to kingdom come if you're behind the enemies lines.

Ummm, why?

For identification purposes, if the enemy got hold of the body, they could discover who the attackers were.

Thats stupid... If the enemy are using mp5s, have a bunch of camoflauge, used amphibious entry vehicles, then it doesn't take an genius to figure out who they were.

Exonerate wrote:

Ted wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote: Ummm, why?

For identification purposes, if the enemy got hold of the body, they could discover who the attackers were.

Thats stupid... If the enemy are using mp5s, have a bunch of camoflauge, used amphibious entry vehicles, then it doesn't take an genius to figure out who they were.

Uhhh... GSG-9? Navy SEALs? British SBS?

Exonerate wrote: Thats stupid... If the enemy are using mp5s, have a bunch of camoflauge, used amphibious entry vehicles, then it doesn't take an genius to figure out who they were.

Actually, everone in the special forces community uses MP-5s....the trick
isn't to use anything that is distinctively AMERICAN, such as the M-60 GPMG...

only The USA and the Phillipines and one other country have used them,
so that's a dead giveaway who it was then and there...

Ted wrote:
If you blow the corpse up with like 20 pund of PE, then the body can't be identified.

No you don't, unless you split it up and place it around the body like a clay mould. If you simply place a 20lb lump of PE or C4 next to or nuder a body all you'll do is send bits of it over a long distance, but they will still be large bits and so identifiable. You'd have to put a bit in each had, abit in the mouth, and then search the bosy for identifying marks and place a bit there too. It's daft. You might put him on a Grebade with the pin removed so when lifted it goes bang and gets a few of the enemy, but that's it (hell the grenade would do a better job of mangling the corpse than your 20lbs of det.)

MKSheppard wrote:Actually, everone in the special forces community uses MP-5s....the trick isn't to use anything that is distinctively AMERICAN, such as the M-60 GPMG...

only The USA and the Phillipines and one other country have used them, so that's a dead giveaway who it was then and there...

Not really, since anybody can simply pick up an M60 and use it for one mission in order to misdirect assessment of their identity.

Rob Wilson wrote: No you don't, unless you split it up and place it around the body like a clay mould. If you simply place a 20lb lump of PE or C4 next to or nuder a body all you'll do is send bits of it over a long distance, but they will still be large bits and so identifiable. You'd have to put a bit in each had, abit in the mouth, and then search the bosy for identifying marks and place a bit there too. It's daft. You might put him on a Grebade with the pin removed so when lifted it goes bang and gets a few of the enemy, but that's it (hell the grenade would do a better job of mangling the corpse than your 20lbs of det.)

How about using an incendiary grenade?

Rob Wilson wrote:

Ted wrote:If you blow the corpse up with like 20 pund of PE, then the body can't be identified.

No you don't, unless you split it up and place it around the body like a clay mould. If you simply place a 20lb lump of PE or C4 next to or nuder a body all you'll do is send bits of it over a long distance, but they will still be large bits and so identifiable. You'd have to put a bit in each had, abit in the mouth, and then search the bosy for identifying marks and place a bit there too. It's daft. You might put him on a Grebade with the pin removed so when lifted it goes bang and gets a few of the enemy, but that's it (hell the grenade would do a better job of mangling the corpse than your 20lbs of det.)

Nuclear weapon would do it. Then again, I can't imagine what kind of mission would have been going on in an area which has been OK'd for the use of nukes

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:

Exonerate wrote: Thats stupid... If the enemy are using mp5s, have a bunch of camoflauge, used amphibious entry vehicles, then it doesn't take an genius to figure out who they were.

Uhhh... GSG-9? Navy SEALs? British SBS?

GSG-9 are part of the German Border Police and so are unlikely to operate behind enemy lines in a war. Unless your going to include SWAt in that list as well.

Darth Wong wrote: Not really, since anybody can simply pick up an M60 and use it for one mission in order to misdirect assessment of their identity.

Who would want to use M-60s anyway? They aren't that common on the
world market....so that's another dead giveaway.....

An AK clone....that narrows it down to 50 bazillion people.....

Rob Wilson wrote:
GSG-9 are part of the German Border Police and so are unlikely to operate behind enemy lines in a war. Unless your going to include SWAt in that list as well.

Sorry - I meant the other German CT force.

MKSheppard wrote: Who would want to use M-60s anyway? They aren't that common on the
world market....so that's another dead giveaway.....

An AK clone....that narrows it down to 50 bazillion people.....

And besides M60s are a bitch to carry. USe a PKM instead.

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote: No you don't, unless you split it up and place it around the body like a clay mould. If you simply place a 20lb lump of PE or C4 next to or nuder a body all you'll do is send bits of it over a long distance, but they will still be large bits and so identifiable. You'd have to put a bit in each had, abit in the mouth, and then search the bosy for identifying marks and place a bit there too. It's daft. You might put him on a Grebade with the pin removed so when lifted it goes bang and gets a few of the enemy, but that's it (hell the grenade would do a better job of mangling the corpse than your 20lbs of det.)

How about using an incendiary grenade?

Who carries them? You might have Thermite for your Radio ( a small amount to use for it's destruction along with sigs wallet) but that is for that purpose alone, you wouldn't waste it on a corpse.

Rob Wilson wrote: No you don't, unless you split it up and place it around the body like a clay mould. If you simply place a 20lb lump of PE or C4 next to or nuder a body all you'll do is send bits of it over a long distance

What if you buried the body in a shallow grave with C4 packed around it
to boost the explosive effect?

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote:
GSG-9 are part of the German Border Police and so are unlikely to operate behind enemy lines in a war. Unless your going to include SWAt in that list as well.

Sorry - I meant the other German CT force.

Which is GSG-9, a police unit. A lot of people make that mistake, so don't worry about it.