StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Rob Wilson wrote: It is interesting to note that so far this small poll is an almost exact mirror of my own ongoing one. To date I have found only 1 Military person that thought that ST was a viable military, and the denizens of ASVS are familiar with the ST leanings of 2nd Lt Natasha Bell of the US Army. (I will however point out that away from the Subject of ST she was a very nice and personable young woman).

Holy Crap I'd hate to have to do any potentially combat related work for her if she's going to do things Starfleet style™.

Perinquus wrote:
If they used that tactic with all their phasers, it would go a hell of a long way to explain why they never bothered to incorporate sights on most of them. If you activate the beam, then "chop" it into someone, you wouldn't have as much need of sights, and it might even be faster than aimed fire (though it could be rather unfortunate when precision is needed). Just another abvious idea they never thought of.

Yeah but in everyday use that's wasteful, plus as they don't do this what the hells the excuse for their lack of usable sights or even a nod towards ergonomics.

They had to design a rifle that forced their troops to adopt a butt-in-shoulder-aimed stance before anyone even looked at a sight. Watch First Contact, they start off holding it at the waist, the same as they would with the Mark III, but from the first time they fire onwards they have them in the shoulder and take aimed shots.

Rob Wilson wrote:

Perinquus wrote:
If they used that tactic with all their phasers, it would go a hell of a long way to explain why they never bothered to incorporate sights on most of them. If you activate the beam, then "chop" it into someone, you wouldn't have as much need of sights, and it might even be faster than aimed fire (though it could be rather unfortunate when precision is needed). Just another abvious idea they never thought of.

Yeah but in everyday use that's wasteful, plus as they don't do this what the hells the excuse for their lack of usable sights or even a nod towards ergonomics.

They had to design a rifle that forced their troops to adopt a butt-in-shoulder-aimed stance before anyone even looked at a sight. Watch First Contact, they start off holding it at the waist, the same as they would with the Mark III, but from the first time they fire onwards they have them in the shoulder and take aimed shots.

Oh I agree with you, which is why I began the sentence "if they used that tactic with all their phasers..." Though as an aside, wastefulness of power doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad idea - think how much ammo is wasted laying down suppressive fire in combat, and we don't consider that a bad idea. The bigger disadvantage from no sights would come when you need to make a careful, precise shot - say in a hostage situation, or with volatile materials around you don't want to risk hitting - and you find yourself unable to do it.

Of course, the boys at Star Trek will never think of these things though.

Tsyroc wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote: It is interesting to note that so far this small poll is an almost exact mirror of my own ongoing one. To date I have found only 1 Military person that thought that ST was a viable military, and the denizens of ASVS are familiar with the ST leanings of 2nd Lt Natasha Bell of the US Army. (I will however point out that away from the Subject of ST she was a very nice and personable young woman).

Holy Crap I'd hate to have to do any potentially combat related work for her if she's going to do things Starfleet style™.

Unless your in 1ATB you're safe.

Oh I got her rank wrong it should be Lt not 2nd Lt.

Perinquus wrote:
Oh I agree with you, which is why I began the sentence "if they used that tactic with all their phasers..." Though as an aside, wastefulness of power doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad idea - think how much ammo is wasted laying down suppressive fire in combat, and we don't consider that a bad idea.

Yeah, in an assault it's every round downrange, but in any other situation it's a waste.... not that this'll stop them. Though obviously something does as you never see them firing in this manner.

The bigger disadvantage from no sights would come when you need to make a careful, precise shot - say in a hostage situation, or with volatile materials around you don't want to risk hitting - and you find yourself unable to do it.

Careful, precise shot? In ST? that would require discipline and proper appreciation of fire control, something that's never been shown. God this is starting to feel like clubbing a seal cub. ST just gets everything wrong in even the smallest ways. there must be smething positive we can say about thier Military skills..... mustn't there?

Of course, the boys at Star Trek will never think of these things though.

The implementation of a properly designed rifle shows they want to get things right, but they're doing it through equipment design rather than training.

Rob Wilson wrote:The implementation of a properly designed rifle shows they want to get things right, but they're doing it through equipment design rather than training.

The instructors can't teach that which they do not know.

BTW, regarding the notion that Starfleet people are trained in security rather than ground assaults, this is true. However, they're shitty security guards too. Look at Roga Danar's escape; they can't track him without their toys, so they're basically clueless once their internal sensor grid is blown out. Why is this so complicated? They know he's gone into the Jeffries tubes, so why don't they just station a three-man team at every tube exit? Why do they have to guess which particular exit he might come out of?

AdmiralKanos wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote:The implementation of a properly designed rifle shows they want to get things right, but they're doing it through equipment design rather than training.

The instructors can't teach that which they do not know.

BTW, regarding the notion that Starfleet people are trained in security rather than ground assaults, this is true. However, they're shitty security guards too. Look at Roga Danar's escape; they can't track him without their toys, so they're basically clueless once their internal sensor grid is blown out. Why is this so complicated? They know he's gone into the Jeffries tubes, so why don't they just station a three-man team at every tube exit? Why do they have to guess which particular exit he might come out of?

If it was a real warship, the Jeffries tubes would have water(vacuum in this case)-tight doors at regular intervals to prevent depressurization. Ideally the ship would be designed so that these would automatically close in the event of a power loss.

Therefore, all they'd have to do is station security teams at the exits to the section Roga Danar was in; he'd be cut off from the rest of the ship by the closing of the vacuum-tight doors, even if the ship was totally without power.

I should add for the record, if it is a slight divergence, that the Titanic had better compartmentalization than a Federation Starship of the Galaxy-class.

AdmiralKanos wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote:The implementation of a properly designed rifle shows they want to get things right, but they're doing it through equipment design rather than training.

The instructors can't teach that which they do not know.

BTW, regarding the notion that Starfleet people are trained in security rather than ground assaults, this is true. However, they're shitty security guards too. Look at Roga Danar's escape; they can't track him without their toys, so they're basically clueless once their internal sensor grid is blown out. Why is this so complicated? They know he's gone into the Jeffries tubes, so why don't they just station a three-man team at every tube exit? Why do they have to guess which particular exit he might come out of?

Time to trot out my all time favourite example of Starfleet Security training.

Ladies and Gentlemen can we please have a nice round of applause for "nor the battle to the strong".

Here we have 2 Fed Security guards, Jake Sisko describes how all Fed Security "Undergo 100's of hours of combat simulations at the academy", so lets see how thse two fine examples do, shall we?

They are in a tunnel system, so the layout is similar to the duties required for security/evacuation work on a ship. They must evacuate staff from a hospital ward in the tunnels before the Klingons arrive. 1 guard moves halfway down th tunnel and spends most his time looking back into the room, the other sort of gestures ineffectually to the staff who take their time collecting things and running back and forth across the room.

Enter the Klingons, who promptly shoot the guy in the tunnel, despite the fact he had time to shout that they were coming and had to round a corner to shoot him. Within seconds the Hospital staff are GONE, you'd swear they teleported out they left so fast.

It's up to our remaing Fed Security officer to defend the retreat, so she moves forward from beside some metal crates to hide behind the bedsheets hanging down from a Trolley bed!!??? After this stunnig display of tactical nouse, she then proceed to miss the Klingons 3 times at a range of 5-7m from the Kneeling supported position, each shot going high left. The Klingons (who are stood in the centre of a tunnel and moving forwards at a comfortable walking pace proceed to shoot her when she tries to return to the metal crates she left earlier!

So any Marines want to comment on this demonstration of Fed Security, whose principle job is ship defence? Anyone want to express they're feelings about the level of these "100's of hours of combat simulations"?

God but I love that part of the Episode it makes me laugh so hard.

I almost forgot about that. So fucking awful ... and as I recall, that was also the same episode where they had ground-support "hoppers" which needed to be protected by a lone man on the ground in order to take off safely (some "support"), a rear entrance which was totally unguarded, mortar rounds which could hit three feet from someone and not injure him (how useful is an indirect-fire weapon if you must score a direct hit on a man-sized target in order to kill him?), the only qualified medic (Bashir) being sent out to get a piece of equipment from a shuttle. The horror ...

Rob Wilson wrote:

Darth Wong wrote: I wonder how long they can fire those continuous beams. For all we know, they're only good for about 15 seconds. Mind you, it still would have worked better than what they did.

15 seconds is all you need, how long does it take you to swing your waist so you face from 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock and back again, even in a leisurely manner?

On top of that they only had a few seconds before the Jems were in amongst them. It's not a pretty tactic, but like I said no recoil so why not. It gets the job done.

Knife or any other Infantry/Marines want a crack at this scenario?

If you haven't seen the episode you have platoon to reinforced platoon strength enemy forces, exposed to fire over a fire zone approx 20m max in length and approx 30m width, your lines are 10m in width and you have a understrength platoon with Type III phaser rifles and Knives. We will limit you to one Battery pack per man per weapon, fully charged.

This is the situation the Feds got themselves into. You may however risk moving forward to the other end of the Fire zone to fire at the Jems whilst they are being decimated in a minefield placed in a vlley they must approach through, though you then have an exposed withdrawal to your primary defences. You may split forces as necessary and the Enemy and your sensors are jammed.

Yeah, it would be called an FPL or Final Protective Line (note it can also be called an FPF or Final Protective Fire). If I remeber the episode correctly, the Jem's approach through some sort of canyon, which would make a perfect avenue of approach for a FPL. Once the enemy emerged from the canyon, all available weapons would or should have fired in the general location and swept back and forth in a fashion that would be as close to grazing fire as one can get with a single beam weapon.

AdmiralKanos wrote:I almost forgot about that. So fucking awful ... and as I recall, that was also the same episode where they had ground-support "hoppers" which needed to be protected by a lone man on the ground in order to take off safely (some "support"), a rear entrance which was totally unguarded, mortar rounds which could hit three feet from someone and not injure him (how useful is an indirect-fire weapon if you must score a direct hit on a man-sized target in order to kill him?), the only qualified medic (Bashir) being sent out to get a piece of equipment from a shuttle. The horror ...

Bingo. Yep it's that one. Whenever someone talks about the wonderful abilities of Starfleet security and their self-aiming phasers, i just pop that sucker in the machine and have me a good old laugh.

Rob Wilson wrote:

AdmiralKanos wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote:The implementation of a properly designed rifle shows they want to get things right, but they're doing it through equipment design rather than training.

The instructors can't teach that which they do not know.

BTW, regarding the notion that Starfleet people are trained in security rather than ground assaults, this is true. However, they're shitty security guards too. Look at Roga Danar's escape; they can't track him without their toys, so they're basically clueless once their internal sensor grid is blown out. Why is this so complicated? They know he's gone into the Jeffries tubes, so why don't they just station a three-man team at every tube exit? Why do they have to guess which particular exit he might come out of?

Time to trot out my all time favourite example of Starfleet Security training.

Ladies and Gentlemen can we please have a nice round of applause for "nor the battle to the strong".

Here we have 2 Fed Security guards, Jake Sisko describes how all Fed Security "Undergo 100's of hours of combat simulations at the academy", so lets see how thse two fine examples do, shall we?

They are in a tunnel system, so the layout is similar to the duties required for security/evacuation work on a ship. They must evacuate staff from a hospital ward in the tunnels before the Klingons arrive. 1 guard moves halfway down th tunnel and spends most his time looking back into the room, the other sort of gestures ineffectually to the staff who take their time collecting things and running back and forth across the room.

Enter the Klingons, who promptly shoot the guy in the tunnel, despite the fact he had time to shout that they were coming and had to round a corner to shoot him. Within seconds the Hospital staff are GONE, you'd swear they teleported out they left so fast.

It's up to our remaing Fed Security officer to defend the retreat, so she moves forward from beside some metal crates to hide behind the bedsheets hanging down from a Trolley bed!!??? After this stunnig display of tactical nouse, she then proceed to miss the Klingons 3 times at a range of 5-7m from the Kneeling supported position, each shot going high left. The Klingons (who are stood in the centre of a tunnel and moving forwards at a comfortable walking pace proceed to shoot her when she tries to return to the metal crates she left earlier!

So any Marines want to comment on this demonstration of Fed Security, whose principle job is ship defence? Anyone want to express they're feelings about the level of these "100's of hours of combat simulations"?

God but I love that part of the Episode it makes me laugh so hard.

Don't remeber the episode, but their vuanted training must have been on a gameboy. If they were evacuating, then the security forces would have "secured" the evacuation route. Then they would have identified any probable avenues of approach and taken atleast some measure against them. Last and not least, if anyone wanted to linger, either leave them or drag them out of there. Using force (appropriate) to remove disorganized non-combatents is perfectly acceptable, especially to those who are risking the lives to evacutate them.

Knife wrote: Don't remeber the episode, but their vuanted training must have been on a gameboy. If they were evacuating, then the security forces would have "secured" the evacuation route. Then they would have identified any probable avenues of approach and taken atleast some measure against them. Last and not least, if anyone wanted to linger, either leave them or drag them out of there. Using force (appropriate) to remove disorganized non-combatents is perfectly acceptable, especially to those who are risking the lives to evacutate them.

Exactly, I'm tellin you, you have to see this to believe it. There was only one way in and one way out (which went back through the Fed base and was presumably secured, hence only 2 Guards being sent forwards to evac.

You've doubtless done the Civil unrest exercises with other soldiers/marines playing recalcitrant civvies that you must contain and evacuate. You learn in about 5 seconds flat that the only way to get them move for their own safety is to Physically take charge and get them started. No if, no buts no please, it's "That way NOW!".

Rob Wilson wrote:

Knife wrote: Don't remeber the episode, but their vuanted training must have been on a gameboy. If they were evacuating, then the security forces would have "secured" the evacuation route. Then they would have identified any probable avenues of approach and taken atleast some measure against them. Last and not least, if anyone wanted to linger, either leave them or drag them out of there. Using force (appropriate) to remove disorganized non-combatents is perfectly acceptable, especially to those who are risking the lives to evacutate them.

Exactly, I'm tellin you, you have to see this to believe it. There was only one way in and one way out (which went back through the Fed base and was presumably secured, hence only 2 Guards being sent forwards to evac.

You've doubtless done the Civil unrest exercises with other soldiers/marines playing recalcitrant civvies that you must contain and evacuate. You learn in about 5 seconds flat that the only way to get them move for their own safety is to Physically take charge and get them started. No if, no buts no please, it's "That way NOW!".

"M'am, with all due respect," here with this begining you know its going to be disrespectful...." DROP YOU FUCKING SHIT AND GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE OR I'LL BE FORCED TO KNOCK THE SHIT OUT OF YOU AND CARRY YOUR DUMB AS OUT OF HERE."

Knife wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote:

You've doubtless done the Civil unrest exercises with other soldiers/marines playing recalcitrant civvies that you must contain and evacuate. You learn in about 5 seconds flat that the only way to get them move for their own safety is to Physically take charge and get them started. No if, no buts no please, it's "That way NOW!".

"M'am, with all due respect," here with this begining you know its going to be disrespectful...." DROP YOU FUCKING SHIT AND GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE OR I'LL BE FORCED TO KNOCK THE SHIT OUT OF YOU AND CARRY YOUR DUMB AS OUT OF HERE."

The one i found worked the best was pinpoint the leader as soon as you walk in, approach and shake hand, Take hand and secure his arm behind his back. Push him towards the largest Soldier in my Squad who then propels him straight out. Turn to the rest "You are leaving with everything you are carrying in the next 5 seconds...... MOVE!". Get 2 available bods to herd them out the door at speed. Find the ditherer (there's always one) approach and stand so their back is towards the exit. "Excuse me sir/madam, but what is the problem?" "Well - " "MOVE!" said whilst walking forwards fast. Which forces them to move backwards fast and makes it easy to spin them round and push them out the door. That works in most situations.

Rob Wilson wrote:

Knife wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote:

You've doubtless done the Civil unrest exercises with other soldiers/marines playing recalcitrant civvies that you must contain and evacuate. You learn in about 5 seconds flat that the only way to get them move for their own safety is to Physically take charge and get them started. No if, no buts no please, it's "That way NOW!".

"M'am, with all due respect," here with this begining you know its going to be disrespectful...." DROP YOU FUCKING SHIT AND GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE OR I'LL BE FORCED TO KNOCK THE SHIT OUT OF YOU AND CARRY YOUR DUMB AS OUT OF HERE."

The one i found worked the best was pinpoint the leader as soon as you walk in, approach and shake hand, Take hand and secure his arm behind his back. Push him towards the largest Soldier in my Squad who then propels him straight out. Turn to the rest "You are leaving with everything you are carrying in the next 5 seconds...... MOVE!". Get 2 available bods to herd them out the door at speed. Find the ditherer (there's always one) approach and stand so their back is towards the exit. "Excuse me sir/madam, but what is the problem?" "Well - " "MOVE!" said whilst walking forwards fast. Which forces them to move backwards fast and makes it easy to spin them round and push them out the door. That works in most situations.

Yeup, screaming and intimidating the one in charge always tends to get the non combatents out of the area. Besides, there is something mystical and dreadful about "grunts" that pogs find terrifing. They think we're nuts (mostly true) to be grunts anyways, so tend to have a fearful respect of anything that makes us nervous.

There's hardly anything in this thread that somebody hasn't addressed already, so I don't really have anything to add.

Regarding ST military/security, anyone with a working synapse should be able to see it's completely FUBAR and a typical sitrep would be SNAFU. Been dissected in detail already, and I haven't even watched practically anything beyond TNG because they aired maybe one season of DS9 and one of Voyager before they stopped it altogether.

Regarding the civilian evacuation issue, Knife and Rob covered it better than I probably would have.

Edi

Edi wrote:There's hardly anything in this thread that somebody hasn't addressed already, so I don't really have anything to add.

Regarding ST military/security, anyone with a working synapse should be able to see it's completely FUBAR and a typical sitrep would be SNAFU. Been dissected in detail already, and I haven't even watched practically anything beyond TNG because they aired maybe one season of DS9 and one of Voyager before they stopped it altogether.

Regarding the civilian evacuation issue, Knife and Rob covered it better than I probably would have.

Edi

Well any comments will help, but I'm about to start a new thread where everyone will be able to make a comment (in fact I'm hoping everyone will) regardles of what anyone before them has said on the subject.

AdmiralKanos wrote:I almost forgot about that. So fucking awful ... and as I recall, that was also the same episode where they had ground-support "hoppers" which needed to be protected by a lone man on the ground in order to take off safely (some "support"), a rear entrance which was totally unguarded, mortar rounds which could hit three feet from someone and not injure him (how useful is an indirect-fire weapon if you must score a direct hit on a man-sized target in order to kill him?), the only qualified medic (Bashir) being sent out to get a piece of equipment from a shuttle. The horror ...

Yeah it is. Probably armored in warp cores. The mortars must have been firing bean bags, any form of metel projectile would have given off at least a few fragments.

Perinquus wrote:I know there are ex-military personnel in Hollywood who function as technical advisors to films and TV shows. You'd think they might have hired at least one to give them a few tips on how it's done.

My friend Dwight-- Captain in the US Army Special Forces-- was hired as a military advisor for the show "Scarecrow and Mrs. King", a mid-80's TV primetime. At one point they wanted a Stinger anti-aircraft missile to be pointed at the ground by a surrounded villain and squeeze the trigger; the missile would go into the ground and blow up, taking him with it.

Dwight insisted this would not, could not happen. He told them about minimum arming distance, etc, but in the end the producers kept it in because it was "cool" and "dramatic". He quit in frustration and insisted that his name not be used in the credits since he didn't want to be associated with such crappy writing.

It doesn't matter if Colin Powell is the advisor; if the director/producer wants a shitty film, they're the ones witrh the power to override any advice they get and hunch out all the shitloafs we see on TV...

Rob Wilson wrote:It is interesting to note that so far this small poll is an almost exact mirror of my own ongoing one. To date I have found only 1 Military person that thought that ST was a viable military, and the denizens of ASVS are familiar with the ST leanings of 2nd Lt Natasha Bell of the US Army. (I will however point out that away from the Subject of ST she was a very nice and personable young woman).

Speaking of which Rob do you know what came of her?

Rob Wilson wrote:<snip>
It's up to our remaing Fed Security officer to defend the retreat, so she moves forward from beside some metal crates to hide behind the bedsheets hanging down from a Trolley bed!!??? After this stunnig display of tactical nouse, she then proceed to miss the Klingons 3 times at a range of 5-7m from the Kneeling supported position, each shot going high left. The Klingons (who are stood in the centre of a tunnel and moving forwards at a comfortable walking pace proceed to shoot her when she tries to return to the metal crates she left earlier!

I'm just gonna comment a little:

1) I'm a POG
2) I'm a POG who is a decent shot (expert rifleman)
3) I could shoot better than this on my back, with my eyes closed and suffering from an epileptic episode.

CmdrWilkens wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote:It is interesting to note that so far this small poll is an almost exact mirror of my own ongoing one. To date I have found only 1 Military person that thought that ST was a viable military, and the denizens of ASVS are familiar with the ST leanings of 2nd Lt Natasha Bell of the US Army. (I will however point out that away from the Subject of ST she was a very nice and personable young woman).

Speaking of which Rob do you know what came of her?

Not a clue? She stopped E-mailing me after I last asked you about the Photo Security. I think she's still in the Voyager NG.

Rob Wilson wrote:

CmdrWilkens wrote:

Rob Wilson wrote:It is interesting to note that so far this small poll is an almost exact mirror of my own ongoing one. To date I have found only 1 Military person that thought that ST was a viable military, and the denizens of ASVS are familiar with the ST leanings of 2nd Lt Natasha Bell of the US Army. (I will however point out that away from the Subject of ST she was a very nice and personable young woman).

Speaking of which Rob do you know what came of her?

Not a clue? She stopped E-mailing me after I last asked you about the Photo Security. I think she's still in the Voyager NG.

I wa curious about that after you asked me because it seemed so completely out of the blue wierd that I started doubting her Credentials. Oh well no great loss.