Question about Padawan washouts in the Old Republic

[LongVin]

The fundamental problem with the Jedi system and washouts, is that basically, the Jedi are plucking toddlers out of their homes and semi-permanently or permanently removing them from their families, at an age before they are really capable of making a determination on their own of whether they want to be a part of the order. So my opinion on this matter is, if you're going to do all that to some kid, at least make sure beforehand that they are trainable, and afterwards, that they do in fact become Jedi, as opposed to lifelong slaves of the order or the AgriCorps.

Despite their best efforts, some recruits are going to wash out. Recruiting at an older age, though would probably make it easier to determine who would succede as a Jedi and who wouldn't. For that matter, failed Jedi would at least probably have a prior life to go back to. Kids who grow up in the Jedi Temple would unfortunately be lacking in social skills needed to function as normal beings. Are they even allowed to go outside the Temple before they are assigned to a Master?

Of course, the Jedi order allowed Dooku to pursue a career in politics after he left. Undoubtedly, they figured a former master could never do anything evil while former Padawans and Younglings could get involved in all sorts of wickedness.

Well Dooku left the order and Dooku is also a case where the Padawan was taken at an older age I believe not sure about this though but I remember reeading he came from a noble family who asked that he be taken into the Jedi Order.

[LongVin]

I think the point of removing any Force-senstive they find is to remove potential corrupting effects from them at birth. That way, whether they become Jedi or not, they are more likely to be able to resist the dark side. Simply leaving a Force sensitive with his familiy because he seems unstable or unsuitable would fly in the face of the entire point of the policy (although doing this to those who are too weak in the force is not really defensible, although they may suspect that some might grow in power as they mature.)

So the Jedi forcibly seize the children from their families? As far as I'm concerned, that's not defensible, period. With moral standards like that, Palpatine looks like a hero.

Somehow, my problem with this whole area, the way its being described thus far, is it just doesn't seem to fit with the image of the Jedi that George Lucas seems to have conveyed in the films thus far. It just doesn't taste right...while technically if its in a book its in a low grade canon status, it really does feel apocryphal, like it doesn't belong in the SW storyline. Basically, this relatively minor detail, of Padawan washouts and Jedi recruitment, if left as has been discussed here, substantially undermines the heroic image of the Jedi and the moral proposition that the Old Republic offered.

Well by the time of the Prequal trilogies the Jedi Order is basically corrupt and no longer follows the ideals of the Order. They believe themselves above the law and independent of the Republic and go against the rulings of the senate and play favorites with politicians.

[LongVin]

If the Jedi have no qualms about simply seizing children, why didn't Qui-Gon just take Anakin? As far as I know, he simply had a tracking chip, not a remote kill device. Why not run and have it taken care of back on Coruscant?

They had a kill device on Anakin. You are tracked then blown up if you can't be caught. And Qui Gon probably would of just taken Anakin if it was possible. Jedi Mind Trick: You are freeing the boy and letting me take him to Coruscant to be trained as a Jedi.

But of course Watto comes from a species that is resistant to mind tricks.

[Noble Ire]

If the Jedi have no qualms about simply seizing children, why didn't Qui-Gon just take Anakin? As far as I know, he simply had a tracking chip, not a remote kill device. Why not run and have it taken care of back on Coruscant?

They had a kill device on Anakin. You are tracked then blown up if you can't be caught. And Qui Gon probably would of just taken Anakin if it was possible. Jedi Mind Trick: You are freeing the boy and letting me take him to Coruscant to be trained as a Jedi.

Unlikely. Even though a Jedi might have more moral justification in seizing a slave than a free child (which they don't do anyways, as has been confirmed by numerous sources) they still probably wouldn't. Remember, Gui-Gon "Didn't go there to free slaves."

Then again, he was never the typical servant of the order, and would, and did bend the rules in the specific case.

[Manus Celer Dei]

They believe themselves above the law and independent of the Republic and go against the rulings of the senate and play favorites with politicians.

Are you referring to when they knew that a Sith Lord was in control of the senate, or is there something in the EU I'm not aware of?

[LongVin]

They believe themselves above the law and independent of the Republic and go against the rulings of the senate and play favorites with politicians.

Are you referring to when they knew that a Sith Lord was in control of the senate, or is there something in the EU I'm not aware of?

Revenge of the Sith is one part.

But in the Phantom Menace Supreme Chancelelor Vhalorum sends the Jedi to diffuse the situation over Naboo when they trade federation just arrives on planet. That was an illegal act according to the book since the senate had to approve the measures to be taken concering the situation.

[Noble Ire]

Revenge of the Sith is one part.

Palpatine?
You mean they should have simply allowed a Sith lord, who had orchestrated the entire war from the beginning, to stay in power?

But in the Phantom Menace Supreme Chancelelor Vhalorum sends the Jedi to diffuse the situation over Naboo when they trade federation just arrives on planet. That was an illegal act according to the book since the senate had to approve the measures to be taken concering the situation.

But this was done specifically done at the request of Valorum himself; hardly "corrupt Jedi attempting to take over the Senate."

[LongVin]

Well they could of went through the courts. It makes sense to kill him but it would of been bad press for the Jedi. How are they really going to prove hes a sith lord and it wasn't just a Jedi coup?


It was a personal request by the Supreme chancellor and it was stated numerous times that it was secret and could not be mentioned. Its still a violation of power to a degree.

Of course I would say alot of the fault lies with the Old Republic itself on these matters since it never acted in a proper fashion and chose to delay and procrastinate and was largely ineffective. Of course some of that had to do with Palpatines manipulation.

[Noble Ire]

Well they could of went through the courts. It makes sense to kill him but it would of been bad press for the Jedi. How are they really going to prove he's a sith lord and it wasn't just a Jedi coup?

Palpatine controls the courts. I think Mace even says as much in the film. As to proving their true intent, I don't think they had that entirely figured out. All that matter was getting Palpatine out before he could do anymore damage. Perhaps they were relying on a positive track record to pull through the following investigation.

It was a personal request by the Supreme chancellor and it was stated numerous times that it was secret and could not be mentioned. Its still a violation of power to a degree.

I violation of power, it was, the Chancellor's power. The Jedi may have been complacent in it, but it was not instigated by them, and they didn't have any motives other than undermining the TF's dangerous expansion, which is their mandate.

Of course I would say alot of the fault lies with the Old Republic itself on these matters since it never acted in a proper fashion and chose to delay and procrastinate and was largely ineffective. Of course some of that had to do with Palpatines manipulation.

Quite true. It's remarkable that the Republic survived as long as it did after the Ruusan Reformation with its weakened legislative body. Palpatine was merely a catalyst to its inevitable fall, if a very effective one.

[LongVin]

Well they could of went through the courts. It makes sense to kill him but it would of been bad press for the Jedi. How are they really going to prove he's a sith lord and it wasn't just a Jedi coup?

Palpatine controls the courts. I think Mace even says as much in the film. As to proving their true intent, I don't think they had that entirely figured out. All that matter was getting Palpatine out before he could do anymore damage. Perhaps they were relying on a positive track record to pull through the following investigation.

It was a personal request by the Supreme chancellor and it was stated numerous times that it was secret and could not be mentioned. Its still a violation of power to a degree.

I violation of power, it was, the Chancellor's power. The Jedi may have been complacent in it, but it was not instigated by them, and they didn't have any motives other than undermining the TF's dangerous expansion, which is their mandate.

Of course I would say alot of the fault lies with the Old Republic itself on these matters since it never acted in a proper fashion and chose to delay and procrastinate and was largely ineffective. Of course some of that had to do with Palpatines manipulation.

Quite true. It's remarkable that the Republic survived as long as it did after the Ruusan Reformation with its weakened legislative body. Palpatine was merely a catalyst to its inevitable fall, if a very effective one.

1. Yeah Mace does say that so the courts probably wouldnt of worked. It would be interesting to think about what would happen if they killed Palpatine. What would win out? Palpatines immense popularity. Or the the history of the Jedi and they're previous actions.

True they didn't instigate it and they have a mandate to preserve peace. But its where do they draw the line? From the prequel trilogy I get the impression that the Jedi Order is drifting further and further from there original ideas. They are becoming complacent and out of touch with the rest of the galaxy.
Its hinted at in The Phantom Menace when they talk about how most Jedi are more concerned with the "Unifying Force" rather then the "Living Force." Just look at Obi wans and Qui Gons interaction with Jar Jar. Obi Wan regard Jar Jar basically as useless. Remeber Obi Wan was very much focused on then unifying force.

Whereas Qui Gon sees Jar Jar as a being in touch with the galaxy, part of the living force and thus needs to be protected and respected. Qui Gon as they state is atypical of most Jedi in the Order.

[Guardsman Bass]

Palpatine controls the courts. I think Mace even says as much in the film. As to proving their true intent, I don't think they had that entirely figured out. All that matter was getting Palpatine out before he could do anymore damage. Perhaps they were relying on a positive track record to pull through the following investigation.

That's not to mention that the vast majority of the people of the Republic, including most of the Senate, don't even really believe that the Sith still exist. Having the Jedi claim that Palpatine needed to be removed because he was a Sith Lord, without any evidence to the contrary, would be like claiming that he needed to be removed because he's the Bogeyman.

[LongVin]

Palpatine controls the courts. I think Mace even says as much in the film. As to proving their true intent, I don't think they had that entirely figured out. All that matter was getting Palpatine out before he could do anymore damage. Perhaps they were relying on a positive track record to pull through the following investigation.

That's not to mention that the vast majority of the people of the Republic, including most of the Senate, don't even really believe that the Sith still exist. Having the Jedi claim that Palpatine needed to be removed because he was a Sith Lord, without any evidence to the contrary, would be like claiming that he needed to be removed because he's the Bogeyman.

Come to think of it considering the size of the galaxy and the amount of people compared to the amount of Jedi a good portion of the galaxy might consider them a myth or a kooky cult.

Look at Han Solos perception of the force in "A New Hope." Thats probably conductive of most of the galaxies opinion of the force and the Jedi of course that was after an extensive propaganda campaign by the Empire but its reasonable to assume that if the Jedi and the force had such a strong support base more people would be believers in the force and the Jedi.

Even after the Original Trilogies in the EU novels people still view the New Jedi Order with suspicion and slight disdain. That can't be all of Palpatines work since even those who members of the Rebel Alliance held this view. I.e. the Bothan who was chancellor in Vector Prime had a low view of the Jedi.

[Noble Ire]

Even after the Original Trilogies in the EU novels people still view the New Jedi Order with suspicion and slight disdain. That can't be all of Palpatines work since even those who members of the Rebel Alliance held this view. I.e. the Bothan who was chancellor in Vector Prime had a low view of the Jedi.

As a masonic and secretive society, the Jedi were natural targets for suspicion, and Palpatine managed to turn those feelings into outright hostility, eventually even blaming the Clone Wars on them. His rhetoric during the war and the Purge probably managed to convince many average Joes of the galaxy that the Jedi were evil and power-hungry, even as Palpatine's own abuses grew. Even after the Empire's virtual collapse, many still feared and hated the Jedi, the old propogranda still effecting them. This phenomenon might be roughly comparable to the pursecution of the Jews during World War II, Anti-Sematism existed for a long time beforehand, but Hitler managed to turn it into such a virulent hatred that he could blame all of life's hardships on them and exterminate them wholesale. Even now, I'm sure there are still anti-semites in Germany who buy into Hitler's propoganda.