StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Captain Kruger wrote:Regarding the D'deridex design, there's only one possible justification I can think of for the big gap in the middle. They wanted the outer surface area of a 1,200-meter-long ship for the sake of weapons mounting without having to push the mass of a solid 1,200-meter-long ship. That's the only thing I can think of.

Yeah, maybe that harnessed singularity drive of theirs isn't as powerful as they like to make out.

Here is another idea: Greater surface area = faster heat dissipation. Could the D'Deridex-class have a waste heat generation problem, so that they need all that extra space for heat exchangers? It's only a suggestion.

The Romulans just have a bad design philosophy.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:The Romulans just have a bad design philosophy.

Along with almost everyone else in their universe.

I was trying to get BenRG to face the reality of the situation.

Darth Wong wrote:

neoolong wrote:It means that they can. Because they don't means they are stupid.

And there was NEVER any excuse for the retarded Romulan designs, which have been brain-damaged since Day One.

Well, the original Romulan Bird-of-Prey seemed very sound, especially compared with the plate-on-stilts Constitution. It had a thick, rigid central hull, no secondary hull, and the nacelles sat like outriggers on struts that were far stronger than the Constitution's.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I was trying to get BenRG to face the reality of the situation.

And I was trying to find a halfway-logical explanation for an otherwise inexplicable design. That is one of the ideas underlying the main site and the forums, isn't it?

Howedar wrote:Considering we know nothing of the mass of the nacelles, the speed at which the E-E maneuvers, or the materials available, or the stresses with which Federation ships operate, I'd say thats a hasty generalization.

We do know that movement in warp stresses the frame of the ship significantly. I would bet that the Valdore is built for speed, rather than firepower. Kind of like a battlecruiser.

Darth Wong wrote:Yay, let's build a ship with the maximum possible surface area for any given volume, the flimsiest possible structure, and the most inefficient possible shielding system (given the sheer size of the shield it must generate to protect what is a miniscule ship by volume, relative to its bulk dimensions).

At least they've all switched to skin-tight shields now, as opposed to the bubble type.

Fun fact: the BIGGEST, if not only, reason for that switch was pure economics. They claimed the bubble shields were more expensive to put on screen than the skin-tights.

Uraniun235 wrote: Fun fact: the BIGGEST, if not only, reason for that switch was pure economics. They claimed the bubble shields were more expensive to put on screen than the skin-tights.

They are. It's harder to draw bubble shields around starships. The skin-shields, though, are much more effective, and represent an increase in technology from the rest of the series to the present.

are there any pictures of the scimitar itself in the same fashion

BenRG wrote:

Captain Kruger wrote:Regarding the D'deridex design, there's only one possible justification I can think of for the big gap in the middle. They wanted the outer surface area of a 1,200-meter-long ship for the sake of weapons mounting without having to push the mass of a solid 1,200-meter-long ship. That's the only thing I can think of.

Yeah, maybe that harnessed singularity drive of theirs isn't as powerful as they like to make out.

Here is another idea: Greater surface area = faster heat dissipation. Could the D'Deridex-class have a waste heat generation problem, so that they need all that extra space for heat exchangers? It's only a suggestion.

Could be; I'm not much of an engineering expert. I would say ask Darth Wong, but I think he's well past the point of trying to justify anything built in the ST universe.

As for the quantum singularity, I've been thinking it might not be such a huge advantage over M/AM. In the TNG episode where Data explained the warbird's power source, Picard didn't seem like he felt particularly threatened by it. Romulan starships used to be weak in Kirk's era compared to their Klingon and Fed counterparts, so the QS might just be desperate overcompensation on the Roms' part.

BenRG wrote:Here is another idea: Greater surface area = faster heat dissipation. Could the D'Deridex-class have a waste heat generation problem, so that they need all that extra space for heat exchangers? It's only a suggestion.

In space all heat rejection is by radiation. As such the only thing that matters is outside surface area not pointing towards other radiators or portions of the object to be cooled. The D'Deridex's interior space would be pointless for cooling as the inward facing surfaces of the wings don't point to space but rather are obstructed by other portions of the ship.

Enlightenment wrote:

BenRG wrote:Here is another idea: Greater surface area = faster heat dissipation. Could the D'Deridex-class have a waste heat generation problem, so that they need all that extra space for heat exchangers? It's only a suggestion.

In space all heat rejection is by radiation. As such the only thing that matters is outside surface area not pointing towards other radiators or portions of the object to be cooled. The D'Deridex's interior space would be pointless for cooling as the inward facing surfaces of the wings don't point to space but rather are obstructed by other portions of the ship.

Does the big size of a D'Deridex have any other purpose than intimidating the enemy? I never thought so.

BTW, the large wing area on the Valdore could make sense if it was used for solar cells. (which it, sadly, doesn't appear to be used for)

I don't see the big hoo-hah, it was a good film, not the best, but not the worst and it had some decent ship fighting action, but I wanted to see that Fed fleet engage the Scimitar.

Anyway, Star Wars is one to go on about crap ship design, ISD, Correllian Corvette, YT-1300 anyone?

It's sci-fi, I couldn't care if ST has flimsy ships, they look cool.

Admiral Valdemar wrote: Anyway, Star Wars is one to go on about crap ship design, ISD, Correllian Corvette, YT-1300 anyone?

1 no one mentioned SW
2 They are structurally sound (fairly, the cockpit of the YT is questionable)

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Anyway, Star Wars is one to go on about crap ship design, ISD, Correllian Corvette, YT-1300 anyone?

What the hell are you smoking? Aside from occasional bridge tower vulnerability, what exactly is vulnerable about the brick-shithouse ISD? The Corellian corvette is perfectly sound for a light support ship, certainly more so than anything Trek has. The YT-1300 is a crapola civilian ship, so that's not much of a point.

Sorry pal, but if you try to distract attention from criticism on ST ship designs by pointing at SW, you're gonna end up looking indescribably stupid.

"A Porsche Boxter is flimsy and has no endurance!"

"Oh yeah? Well the US military is one to go on about crap vehicle design, M-1 Abrams anyone?"

I think you get my point.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:It's sci-fi, I couldn't care if ST has flimsy ships, they look cool.

If you're going for looks, fine. The E-E's a pretty lady, no doubt.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:It's sci-fi, I couldn't care if ST has flimsy ships, they look cool.

If you think "flimsy" is cool, then yeah, I suppose

Tie Fighters are flimsy, but they still look cool.

Captain Kruger wrote:

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Anyway, Star Wars is one to go on about crap ship design, ISD, Correllian Corvette, YT-1300 anyone?

What the hell are you smoking? Aside from occasional bridge tower vulnerability, what exactly is vulnerable about the brick-shithouse ISD? The Corellian corvette is perfectly sound for a light support ship, certainly more so than anything Trek has. The YT-1300 is a crapola civilian ship, so that's not much of a point.

Sorry pal, but if you try to distract attention from criticism on ST ship designs by pointing at SW, you're gonna end up looking indescribably stupid.

"A Porsche Boxter is flimsy and has no endurance!"

"Oh yeah? Well the US military is one to go on about crap vehicle design, M-1 Abrams anyone?"

I think you get my point.

No, you misunderstand, the ISD has a tower and lack of rear facing weapon power, add some more guns around the belly and get rid of that tower and the design is perfect. But it still has glaring errors. The YT-1300 is a cargo freighter with a stupid offset cockpit and inability to carry much freight thanks to the lack of any decent entrances. Sure it can take stuff externally, but that has its own limitations. The Correllian Corvette is used in the classic "Designing a starship" webpage which shows just how much pot the designers were smoking. The ship is hardly realistic either.

I also don't get your point about the Porsche and M1A2, I am pointing out the shit designs in BOTH universes. I couldn't care less if Trek has worse designs, SW has laughably daft designs too so the point of my bias is moot (I AM a Warsie primarily, but the Culture and I-War has my appeal more now, I like Trek but am in no way a Trekkie).

Admiral Valdemar wrote:It's sci-fi, I couldn't care if ST has flimsy ships, they look cool.

If you're going for looks, fine. The E-E's a pretty lady, no doubt.[/quote]

Indeed it is, but woefully fragile and overdependent on technology and not common sense to make it work.

In anycase, there is a thread at SB.com dare you tread there that is going on about realistic designs for starships, equally there is a thread here on making a modern or near future space vessel. I find in sci-fi that I-War has the most solid based designs in reality bar some tech that is theoretical but not overly bad e.g. jump-drive or artificial gravity.

Darth Wong wrote:

Admiral Valdemar wrote:It's sci-fi, I couldn't care if ST has flimsy ships, they look cool.

If you think "flimsy" is cool, then yeah, I suppose

Ah, you seem to be trying to find an error in my opinion, nice try, but I'd like to see you refute my personal preferences.

My dad worked in the RAF as an engineer, my grandpa also worked there and my grandmother helped test the Merlin engine in the Spitfire. I am a man of science too (biology mainly), I know Trek has the most useless engineering designs in history of sci-fi for realism, but they are good eye candy, and in popular sci-fi that is all that matters really.

I would still go with an ISD-II anyday, but I don't use my Wars or Trek bias to rat on the other designs, they are all equally unrealistic in ways.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:

Admiral Valdemar wrote:It's sci-fi, I couldn't care if ST has flimsy ships, they look cool.

If you think "flimsy" is cool, then yeah, I suppose

Ah, you seem to be trying to find an error in my opinion, nice try, but I'd like to see you refute my personal preferences.

NecronLord wrote:

Admiral Valdemar wrote:

Darth Wong wrote: If you think "flimsy" is cool, then yeah, I suppose

Ah, you seem to be trying to find an error in my opinion, nice try, but I'd like to see you refute my personal preferences.

Uh, I like the sleek designs of some ST ships, there is no right or wrong answer, it is an opinion. The fact that their ships couldn't pull half a gee without breaking apart doesn't factor into it.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:

NecronLord wrote:

Admiral Valdemar wrote: Ah, you seem to be trying to find an error in my opinion, nice try, but I'd like to see you refute my personal preferences.

Uh, I like the sleek designs of some ST ships, there is no right or wrong answer, it is an opinion. The fact that their ships couldn't pull half a gee without breaking apart doesn't factor into it.

Ah.. so do I.

Darth Wong wrote:It's even worse than it looks in that first pic I posted. Check out the view from the front:

"Gossamer-winged" is actually quite an understatement. Small wonder one of them had a wing sheared off; one must wonder why their enemies don't always shoot for the wings.

Compare that to a 1/4 scale military Trimaran design undergoing trails at the moment (the bridge is th only 1/1 scale part so it looks outsized.) The idea is to improve speed, reduce drag and increase mounting area's.





Actually, the Valdore reminds me of the Trimaran "Adventurer" wihich broke some world records, though it's outrigger pylons are ludicrously more stretched than the Adventurer's, and obviouly it doesn't have a bridge


Sorry, best pic I could find.