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PayBack wrote:Oh and in regard to the comment about Vader being nothing special... there was also a more recent comment made (after the prequals) that Star Wars was the story of Darth Vader... which makes him seem just a bit special.

Save that in regards to Vader in OT GL says that it is the TRAGEDY of Anakin Skywalker. He bemoans the fact that people make Vader out to be this really cool figure when his intention was that Vader be viewed more as a tragic figure - a mockery of what Anakin wanted to become.

He went from powerful Sith lord ready to usurp his master almost out of the gate to tired old cripple in a walking iron lung.

PayBack wrote:
Oh and in regard to the comment about Vader being nothing special... there was also a more recent comment made (after the prequals) that Star Wars was the story of Darth Vader... which makes him seem just a bit special.

So the title of Star Wars should be changed to "The Rise and Fall of Anakin Skywalker".



It might be the major focus in the films, but they have many other sub-plots.

Stravo wrote:

PayBack wrote:Oh and in regard to the comment about Vader being nothing special... there was also a more recent comment made (after the prequals) that Star Wars was the story of Darth Vader... which makes him seem just a bit special.

Save that in regards to Vader in OT GL says that it is the TRAGEDY of Anakin Skywalker. He bemoans the fact that people make Vader out to be this really cool figure when his intention was that Vader be viewed more as a tragic figure - a mockery of what Anakin wanted to become.

He went from powerful Sith lord ready to usurp his master almost out of the gate to tired old cripple in a walking iron lung.

This is exactly the point i'm trying to make,
inbetween episode III and IV, does he kill jedi with a lightsabre, or does he use henchmen, does it ever say, ?

Someone who is as pathetic as vader was in the suit isn't going to take on multiple jedi, or even a half decent one, he lost to his son who had barely an training and just beat him cause he tapped into his anger???

c'mon, does that mean ANOTHER jedi could have done that too if it wasn't luke?

Lukedanieljames wrote:

Stravo wrote:

PayBack wrote:Oh and in regard to the comment about Vader being nothing special... there was also a more recent comment made (after the prequals) that Star Wars was the story of Darth Vader... which makes him seem just a bit special.

Save that in regards to Vader in OT GL says that it is the TRAGEDY of Anakin Skywalker. He bemoans the fact that people make Vader out to be this really cool figure when his intention was that Vader be viewed more as a tragic figure - a mockery of what Anakin wanted to become.

He went from powerful Sith lord ready to usurp his master almost out of the gate to tired old cripple in a walking iron lung.

This is exactly the point i'm trying to make,
inbetween episode III and IV, does he kill jedi with a lightsabre, or does he use henchmen, does it ever say, ?

Someone who is as pathetic as vader was in the suit isn't going to take on multiple jedi, or even a half decent one, he lost to his son who had barely an training and just beat him cause he tapped into his anger???

c'mon, does that mean ANOTHER jedi could have done that too if it wasn't luke?

Yes actually. In Dark Lord which happens immediately after RotS Vader takes down several Jedi, including a Jedi Master. However the book itself also discribes Vaders short comings. He is far less agile and he used to be, no twirly shit with the saber as his armour weighs him down to the point where he finds it hard to lift his arms above his head.

he defeats several Jedi (at the same time)by just using his lightsaber and Force skills (this is from Dark Lord).

to date the only Jedi to have defeated Vader is Luke Skywalker(as in the son of Anakin Skywalker) and it's quite clear that Luke is not just another jedi to Vader, from the EU I've read it's quite clear that Vader loses focus if confronted with things Anakin Skywalker cared about.

Lord Revan wrote:he defeats several Jedi (at the same time)by just using his lightsaber and Force skills (this is from Dark Lord).

to date the only Jedi to have defeated Vader is Luke Skywalker(as in the son of Anakin Skywalker) and it's quite clear that Luke is not just another jedi to Vader, from the EU I've read it's quite clear that Vader loses focus if confronted with things Anakin Skywalker cared about.

I don't think Vader lost his focus at all in ESB. He mauls his son for life with a casual flick of the saber and beats him senseless with heavy blunt objects, in effect toying with his own son's life without a hint of remorse.

It is only in ROTJ that it can be argued that Vader loses some of his edge and even then the novelization makes it clear that its more a function of how powerful Luke has become between ESB and ROTJ.

In fact I could argue that Vader seems to GAIN focus with the discovery of his son. He went from feuding henchman to Fearful Dark Lord between ANH and ESB and his Force abilities and powers come far more to the fore than they did in ANH.

Those who have yet to read Dark Lord should do so; it answers a lot of your questions about Darth Vader's capabilities.

As for the statement about Vader being just another lackey in the OT.. well, while his actual rank and position within the Empire's command structure are rather nebulous, he's still Darth Sidious' Sith apprentice. When the OT was made, none of us knew that. We knew not of the prophecy of the Chosen One, nor did we know that Anakin was no ordinary Jedi. We had no knowledge of the Sith Rule of Two, or even that Palpatine was a Sith Lord!
Fortunately, we know that now.


In addition, I don't see why people have such a problem with Luke defeating Vader in the Emperor's throne room. Stop referring to Luke as "a half-trained Jedi". He is a half-trained Jedi, but he is also the son of the Chosen One, with strength in the Force that is so incredible that Darth Sidious feels fear for the first time in ages when he meets the boy.
The Dark Side is indeed a quicker path to power. By giving in to his hate and anger, Luke just about reaches his full potential (his vast potential), as a combatant, on that walkway in the throne room..overpowering the surprised Vader.

Vader was still more than a match for most Jedi, as Dark Lord demonstrates.

Lukedanieljames wrote:

Surlethe wrote:So, if George Lucas says the second Death Star is 160 km in diameter, then is it really only 160 km in diameter, despite the onscreen evidence to the contrary?

I believe that is true, if he explicitly states it several times in seperate mediums (article/documentary) etc. then i think we have to take his word

If Lucas says an X-Wing starfighters has ten S-foil wings, it doesn't make a difference. If he says Chewbacca is shorter than Luke, nothing changes. Until he actually changes the visuals in a re-release of the movie, an X-Wing has four S-foils, and Chewie is a lot taller than Luke. The visuals trump those statements.
Likewise, the second Death Star has to be at least 800km in diameter based on what we see.

Btw, Lucas never made any statement about the Death Star's size. Surlethe was making a hypothetical statement.

IIRC, Darth Vader was Commander-in-Chief of the Imperial Navy (or was it the Imperial Armed Forces as a whole?). Hardly an unimportant figure.

Stravo wrote:
I don't think Vader lost his focus at all in ESB. He mauls his son for life with a casual flick of the saber and beats him senseless with heavy blunt objects, in effect toying with his own son's life without a hint of remorse.

I'm not sure if he showed remorse or not. You can't really tell what is going on inside Lord Vader's helmet. There might be an intense psychological struggle, but because he is so used to playing sidekick, he does exactly what the Emperor says. He is either going to make him an ally or kill him, with or without remorse.

Doctor Doom wrote:IIRC, Darth Vader was Commander-in-Chief of the Imperial Navy (or was it the Imperial Armed Forces as a whole?). Hardly an unimportant figure.

Where is he described thus? I would have thought CinC would have been Palpatines role.

Lukedanieljames wrote:

Surlethe wrote:So, if George Lucas says the second Death Star is 160 km in diameter, then is it really only 160 km in diameter, despite the onscreen evidence to the contrary?

I believe that is true, if he explicitly states it several times in seperate mediums (article/documentary) etc. then i think we have to take his word

However, onscreen evidence contradicts his word. If George Lucas says Vader defeated Luke in RotJ, do you take his word over the movie? If he says Luke and the Emperor had a sabre duel, do you take his word over what you see?

I think Publius says it best here:

The Mandalorian Armor (Bantam, 1998) identifies Lord Vader's policies with those of the High Command, which implies that Lord Vader may have become Supreme Commander after the Battle of Yavin (one supposes that Admiral Terrinald Screed may have been a previous Supreme Commander); this is consistent with the substantial increase in Lord Vader's power within the Imperial State following the destruction of the first Death Star, seeing him rise from a glorified errand boy to commander of an enormous fleet, defeating a number of potential rivals for the Galactic Emperor's favor (it is noteworthy that two of these rivals, the Lord Tagge and the Prince Xizor, were killed as a result of Lord Vader's machinations).

So you are right, he isn't Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, but the Supreme Commander. All hail Publius, unchallenged master of the EU.

Cykeisme wrote:Those who have yet to read Dark Lord should do so; it answers a lot of your questions about Darth Vader's capabilities.

As for the statement about Vader being just another lackey in the OT.. well, while his actual rank and position within the Empire's command structure are rather nebulous, he's still Darth Sidious' Sith apprentice. When the OT was made, none of us knew that. We knew not of the prophecy of the Chosen One, nor did we know that Anakin was no ordinary Jedi. We had no knowledge of the Sith Rule of Two, or even that Palpatine was a Sith Lord!
Fortunately, we know that now.


In addition, I don't see why people have such a problem with Luke defeating Vader in the Emperor's throne room. Stop referring to Luke as "a half-trained Jedi". He is a half-trained Jedi, but he is also the son of the Chosen One, with strength in the Force that is so incredible that Darth Sidious feels fear for the first time in ages when he meets the boy.
The Dark Side is indeed a quicker path to power. By giving in to his hate and anger, Luke just about reaches his full potential (his vast potential), as a combatant, on that walkway in the throne room..overpowering the surprised Vader.

snip.

SotE: Vader mentions that Luke is the most powerfull Jedi ever.

Stuart Mackey wrote:
SotE: Vader mentions that Luke is the most powerfull Jedi ever.

could we get a quote, and what is SOTE

Lukedanieljames wrote:what is SOTE

the Shadow of the Empire.

Stuart Mackey wrote:SotE: Vader mentions that Luke is the most powerfull Jedi ever.

Correction: SotE shows that Vader considers Luke to be the most powerful Jedi ever. This is from a man who basically considers himself to have been the most powerful Jedi ever, or close enough. It's not exactly an unbiased source. It's probably even more apocryphal to take Kreia's word as literal truth when Kreia describes Revan as the Force made manifest.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

According to Dark Horse Comics there have been Sith that have blown up stars before. Now I am not sure if they use explosives (most likely) or if they somehow use the Force. Although I doubt it is the latter.

If it were the Force though, that would be an incredibly powerful Sith.

Cos Dashit wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong...

According to Dark Horse Comics there have been Sith that have blown up stars before. Now I am not sure if they use explosives (most likely) or if they somehow use the Force. Although I doubt it is the latter.

If it were the Force though, that would be an incredibly powerful Sith.

IIRC it was a combination of the Force and some Sith devices (and IIRC it also needed several sith, not just one).

EDIT: we do know that Darth Nihilus can destroy the life for a planet by using the Force (by draining the planet of the Force), he used this power to destroy all life Miraluka planet of Katarr (as far as I know there was only one survivor (Visas Marr)).

Lord Revan wrote:EDIT: we do know that Darth Nihilus can destroy the life for a planet by using the Force (by draining the planet of the Force), he used this power to destroy all life Miraluka planet of Katarr (as far as I know there was only one survivor (Visas Marr)).

That right there, the ability to drain an entire planet of life, Darth Vader couldn't do that, or could he? Was he aware that such power existed before him or was he ignorant of his own Sith history?

Cos Dashit wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:EDIT: we do know that Darth Nihilus can destroy the life for a planet by using the Force (by draining the planet of the Force), he used this power to destroy all life Miraluka planet of Katarr (as far as I know there was only one survivor (Visas Marr)).

That right there, the ability to drain an entire planet of life, Darth Vader couldn't do that, or could he? Was he aware that such power existed before him or was he ignorant of his own Sith history?

Although it is likely Vader didn't know such an ability even existed, he might not have been able to use it even if he was powerful enough. Keep in mind, Nihilus' lower-level Force and dueling skills were quite mundane, and he actually needed to use his planet-destroying ability to survive. It may have been an ability specially crafted to his own physiology and Force-attunement.

Cos Dashit wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:EDIT: we do know that Darth Nihilus can destroy the life for a planet by using the Force (by draining the planet of the Force), he used this power to destroy all life Miraluka planet of Katarr (as far as I know there was only one survivor (Visas Marr)).

That right there, the ability to drain an entire planet of life, Darth Vader couldn't do that, or could he? Was he aware that such power existed before him or was he ignorant of his own Sith history?

there's alot of Sith skills that neither Darth Vader or Darth Sidious used, Darth Nihilus had to use that skill to survive, but IIRC no other Sith ever used it though it's implied that Darth Sidious knew how to do it.

it's one thing to know that something is possible, then actually do it, it's quite possible that Sidious never taugh Vader how to drain the life out of Planets.

EDIT: Darth Nihilus is an abomination (even for the POV of the Sith), he has to feed on the Force.

Cos Dashit wrote:That right there, the ability to drain an entire planet of life, Darth Vader couldn't do that, or could he? Was he aware that such power existed before him or was he ignorant of his own Sith history?

Basically it the whole thing was based around the main plot of KOTOR2 and, without getting into spoilers one of the key goals, you could say, of the game was to seal said techniques. Let's just say it all involves a key fluke that allowed certain individuals to have a certain revelation.

Besides which, Unless Darth Revan or associates made a holocron with said techniques that made it into Darth Bane's hands Darth Sidious is almost guranteed to know nothing about it. Besides which, as already stated in order to pull those stunts Nihilus became more presence then man, and was rather dependant of performing the technique in order to survive.

Lukedanieljames wrote:

Stuart Mackey wrote:
SotE: Vader mentions that Luke is the most powerfull Jedi ever.

could we get a quote,

Yes.

Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son

So strong, the boy. Who could have known? Luke Skywalker-his son-might well be the most powerfull man in the galaxy.

And the Emperor was right. Luke had much power in him. It was raw, unchanneled and untrained, but it was vast. His potential was larger than than the Emperors, larger than Vaders.

Vader on the nature of the Dark Side

When Luke accepted it, he would be more powerful than Vader, more powerful than the Emperor...

Also
Page 289:

Once a Jedi began to grow in the force the process was not easily stopped. In Luke's case, Vader doubted that it could be stopped.

FOG3 wrote:

Stuart Mackey wrote:SotE: Vader mentions that Luke is the most powerfull Jedi ever.

Correction: SotE shows that Vader considers Luke to be the most powerful Jedi ever. This is from a man who basically considers himself to have been the most powerful Jedi ever, or close enough. It's not exactly an unbiased source. It's probably even more apocryphal to take Kreia's word as literal truth when Kreia describes Revan as the Force made manifest.

Anakin had the highest midi-colrian count ever seen. He was regarded by the Emperor to be more powerful than Yoda and himself. Thus we have a base line of power. In RotJ {novel}The Emperor is shown to be afraid of Lukes power.
Moreover, Vader was a Jedi knight as such he is well qualified to judge the matter. In both SotE and RotJ he is willing to kill luke if nessery, "if he could be killed easily he would not be worth recruiting", so I think he is being reasonably objective.

Stuart Mackey wrote:Anakin had the highest midi-colrian count ever seen. He was regarded by the Emperor to [have the potential to] be[come] more powerful than Yoda and himself. Thus we have a base line of power. In RotJ {novel}The Emperor is shown to be afraid of Lukes power.

Correction: Anakin had the highest midichlorian count recorded at that time in relation to Jedi files in existence at that time. Evidence midi-chlorian testing was actually being conducted and recorded prior to the Battle of Ruusan? Furthermore evidence that said records survived previous engagements including but not limited to the war with Exar Kun and the resulting damage to Ossus, in addition to the things Darth Revan and Darth Treya did effectively bringing to the order to its knees. Your unqualified generalization is not justified based on what you've brought forward.

All it indicates is where the various players in the days of the Galactic Empire considered things to stand, based on their perspective. From there knowing how things played out we have a rough idea of how things stood among them, but you can't just say Luke's the most powerful Jedi _ever_ with it. Unqualified generalizations require a lot more work to not be apocryphal then that.

Addendum: Even then there is on screen evidence that pure potential doesn't automatically equate to power in the sense of being on a whole different level, ergo Tyrannus vs Anakin and Kenobi vs Vader. If pure potential was all there was to it, there was no way Anakin could have lost like he did, no? Seems as how Tyrannus handed Anakin his rear on a silver platter in AotC, he must not have been worth recruitng, huh? Or are you going to make a special case for the guy whose spent most of his life training to be a Jedi over the one who basically got accelerated 101?

In addition there are known to exist techniques that involved the user basically feeding of their victim, so that the stronger the victim was in the Force the stronger they were. These Malachor techniques however were likely effectively sealed and forgotten.