Pellaeon's rank between CW and Endor. . .

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-02-25 01:17pm

Well, I'm glad I don't post there regularly. Just sounds like another bloody Dark Moose rampage waiting to happen.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-02-27 05:24pm

I threw together a blog on the OS that chronicles Pellaeon's career from his entry into the Academy through his symbolic "appointment" to Grand Admiral.

+http://blogs.starwars.com/captainneeda/15

Contructive criticism, as always, is welcome.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-02-27 06:53pm

Since I can't post there...

Overall, a good description of Pellaeon's career, faults and all, although I think you may have over-emphasized his complacency in Daala's madness. Though it doesn't necessarily relate to his rise to power, I think including at least a bit of information on his later years would round the entry out a little better.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-03-02 07:20pm

Thanks for the input.

Anyhow, now they're saying over there that the NEC says that Harrsk's command was seperate from that of Pellaeon's CO (as in, there were two different task forces, and two different chains of command). I point out that Pellaeon would still have broken the chain of command by surpassing the more senior Captains in his task force, but is their supposition that there were two COCs correct? Or would Harrsk, being the senior officer there (after Teshik of course, but they seem to be taking the NEC interpretation rather than that of the WW:IGA article) still take control after Pellaeon's CO's death?

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-03-03 01:11pm

This point about Pellaeon 'overriding' the other captains in his strike force hinges on one thing: that in the Imperial Navy the CoC goes from the commander of the flagship to the next highest in rank in the entire fleet when that commander is killed, and not to the next highest ranking command officer on the flagship.
If the latter is true, Pellaeons decision is entirely legal, and the quote stating Dorja 'grudgingly accepted command from a junior officer' simply means he wasn't happy about Pellaeon taking command, NOT that it was illegal for him to do so.
If the former is true, then yes, Pellaeon acted illegally. However, everyone just seems to be assuming this is the case. Give me evidence that these rules apply IN THE IMPERIAL NAVY and not the US navy, then fine. But as of yet, nobody has.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-03-03 04:16pm

But the latter wouldn't make any sense, there's nothing to indicate that the authority is vested in the ship rather than the officers, in fact, it would be silly. If Pellaeon had died along with the flag-officer, some Lieutenant would be in command of a whole fleet in which there are other ranking officers! That's rediculous.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-03-03 04:36pm

Yes, it would also mean in some freak accident command could devolve to an ensign aboard the ship that held a flag. That's retarded. Further, if we have to prove conventions like this, do we have to prove ensigns are lower in seniority than admirals? After all, there are no ensigns in the movies, perhaps they outrank Piett.

Jalinth · Post by **Jalinth** » 2006-03-03 05:21pm

It isn't unreason for regulations to appoint the flag captain as being the interim flag officer should all senior in rank officers be dead/disabled. The concept that the officer with the highest time in grade should assume command is not necessarily the best or only way of handling things.

On the reason side, the assumption could be that flag captains have more access and knowledge of the "why" of the operations (and also more likely to have seen any secret information) than other captains. And in some cases, the flag captain has the better ship (a SSD vs an ordinary ISD), and also will be able to use the Admiral's staff immediately (assuming they haven't died with the flag officer) as they are on the same ship.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-03-03 09:38pm

None of which applies to the particular example, where other admirals, other flags and far more experienced officers were available. I don't see why any military would allow fleet command to *ever* devolve to an XO. There's no evidence either way (aside from common sense vs P. career) so meh.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2006-03-04 11:11am

Militaries and navies appoint officers and NCOs to positions of responsibility precisely because they have (in theory) demonstrated themselves capable of working competently at that level. That is the whole point of the chain of command, and the reason why when someone is promoted, the letter of promotion makes a point of saying that one must "exercise increased authority and willingly accept greater responsibility." It is a fundamental part of military law that authority is commensurate with responsibility; if the central government of the military does not think someone is fit to be held responsible for an entire ship, why would it willingly entrust that person with command of an entire fleet or fleet subdivision? Pellaeon's authority to command the Chimaera was lawful only because the commanding officer was dead; he had not even been appointed to command that ship, let alone the entire battle fleet. Naturally officers like Captain Dorja who had been lawfully and regularly appointed to command in and of their own right would be preferable to him.

Furthermore, the idea that there were two separate chains of command is fatuous and ignores the whole point of the chain of command. While it is true that Harrsk would not have been in direct and immediate command of the fleet subdivision at whose head Chimaera had been, it ignores the fact that both task forces would have fallen under the same overall fleet command – and that it is that overall fleet command who had sole authority to call a general retreat. Even supposing that Pellaeon had lawfully succeeded to command of his fleet subdivision, by no means does that grant him authority to issue orders to ships not in his task force, such as Harrsk's flagship. Certainly Dorja acknowledged that Pellaeon was his junior and had no right to give him orders, indicating that the idea that Pellaeon was within his rights is wishful apologia.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-03-06 05:13pm

If this is the case, and Pellaeon, for whatever reason, calls for a general retreat, why doesn't Dorja tell him to shove it? The quote suggests that he wasn't happy about Pellaeon taking command, but IT DOES NOT SAY that it was illegal, if it had been, Dorja would have stopped it. In a RL navy, if a ships XO ordered a fleet to retreat, and a post captain on board another ship heard it, he would immeditely make sure that the order was rescinded, and possibly the officer in question was relieved of command. Dorja didn't do this, AND NEITHER DID ANY OTHER OFFICER. If Pellaon's order was illegal, why did every single other officer go along with it? The answer: because the CoC had devolved to Pellaeon; Dorja wasn't happy about it, because he knew Pellaeon was his junior, but he followed the order regardless.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-03-06 09:41pm

The situation was already bad: if P. intends to withdraw his forces, it makes the situation worse for any who remain. This is how panic works.

I think your attitude towards this issue is clouded. You seem to be trying to prove P. innocent of wrongdoing, instead of investigating the circumstances with an open mind.

Doctor Doom · Post by **Doctor Doom** » 2006-03-06 10:20pm

If this is the case, and Pellaeon, for whatever reason, calls for a general retreat, why doesn't Dorja tell him to shove it? The quote suggests that he wasn't happy about Pellaeon taking command, but IT DOES NOT SAY that it was illegal, if it had been, Dorja would have stopped it. In a RL navy, if a ships XO ordered a fleet to retreat, and a post captain on board another ship heard it, he would immeditely make sure that the order was rescinded, and possibly the officer in question was relieved of command. Dorja didn't do this, AND NEITHER DID ANY OTHER OFFICER. If Pellaon's order was illegal, why did every single other officer go along with it? The answer: because the CoC had devolved to Pellaeon; Dorja wasn't happy about it, because he knew Pellaeon was his junior, but he followed the order regardless.

I think Dorja realized that the Imperial Fleet was in a state of disarray and that Pellaeon calling the order to retreat, whether legally or otherwise, would instill a sort of panic in the ranks, as it were. Whether or not it was legal, which I do not believe it was, it almost certainly caused a number of ships to begin retreating. Dorja most likely believed that, at that point, retreat and regroup was the best option, and Pellaeon would have to be reprimanded later, when the Imperial Navy had the luxury of dealing with such matters.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-03-07 07:13am

Didn't the Htte-sourcebook claim, that Dorja was such a careful commander, that it could be interpreted as cowardice?

Tiriol · Post by **Tiriol** » 2006-03-07 02:13pm

FTeik wrote:Didn't the Htte-sourcebook claim, that Dorja was such a careful commander, that it could be interpreted as cowardice?

I think that Rebellion PC game's databank said something along those lines about Dorja; I'll try to check that fact.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-03-09 02:00pm

I think your attitude towards this issue is clouded. You seem to be trying to prove P. innocent of wrongdoing, instead of investigating the circumstances with an open mind.

Agreed, but you are doing the exact opposite. Pellaeon is one of my heroes, and everyone seems to be putting him down based on speculation and a few bad moves. As I have said, the situation is that unless anyone can prove Pellaeon was committing an illegal action at Endor, he was guilt free, and as all anyone can offer is speculation and possibilities, I don't see how anyone can say his order was criminal.

I'm still not convinced that the CW comics Pellaeon is the same one, but then I hate comics and their complete disregard for any sort of background detail as long as it makes a good story, which is often utterly character focused and superhero-stylee anyway. Concerning Bilbringi, I digress that hye probably should have attempted a holding action so that the shipyards could have been evacuated and scuttled if indeed the battle was lost. However, every reference I know of after this point, especially in the later Thrawn duology and the NJO portrays him as the hero I know and love.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-03-09 03:33pm

Agreed, but you are doing the exact opposite. Pellaeon is one of my heroes, and everyone seems to be putting him down based on speculation and a few bad moves. As I have said, the situation is that unless anyone can prove Pellaeon was committing an illegal action at Endor, he was guilt free, and as all anyone can offer is speculation and possibilities, I don't see how anyone can say his order was criminal.

I'm still not convinced that the CW comics Pellaeon is the same one, but then I hate comics and their complete disregard for any sort of background detail as long as it makes a good story, which is often utterly character focused and superhero-stylee anyway. Concerning Bilbringi, I digress that hye probably should have attempted a holding action so that the shipyards could have been evacuated and scuttled if indeed the battle was lost. However, every reference I know of after this point, especially in the later Thrawn duology and the NJO portrays him as the hero I know and love.

I think you're going a bit too far. Pellaeon has always been one of my favorite Star Wars characters (definitely first of the pure EU ones), but I would not go so far to raise him so high. For most of his career, he was, quite frankly, unfit for command. He lacked the drive and aggressiveness that a combat leader needs. He was, however, a highly competant administrator, effectient and well respected by his men. For all of his failures and misplaced trust, Pellaeon never abandoned his career, or the causes he fought for, even if he couldn't always save them. He was a rock of sanity and reason when most of his peers were brutal psycopaths unfit to keep a housepet. And in the end, he learned from those he served under, and at last became an effective and inspiring leader in his own right.

Was Pellaeon a genius, or even a hero? No. But in many ways, he was the most real Imperial, both a good man, and a believer in the Empire should have been.