Latest round, I see.
The Darkling wrote:The female changling knew it was a federation weapon? have you got a quote on that please.
Nitpick, nitpick, nitpick. Even you must see that it would be the work of a moment to figure out how she got infected —from a fellow changeling who had been in extensive contact with the solids of the Alpha Quadrant.
Also section 31 is ineffect a stand alone organistaion (although I doubt the other races see it that way).
A "stand alone" organisation which answers to the president and has other branches of Starfleet doing its dirty work when needed to cover its own ass.
When we actually seen the changeling try to blow up a sun is just silly, I'm not going to be snide or anything but just check your facts first please, it will cut down on the lenght of these posts.
Then
why do we not see the Dominion deploying this weapon during the war? You're not going to argue that the Dominion was practising restraint, I hope?
I have already mentioned that this weapon involved detonating simply elements the Federation has access to (and has used as explosives and as a sun formatter before) and it was made using a Federation replicators.
Then when are the alledged Federation sunkiller weapons used in the war?
We also have the stella reformating tech which alters the elements in a sun using a Genesis type technique, this could easily be reversed.
I suppose you imagine that a nuclear reactor and a nuclear weapon are designed and operate in the same fashion as well.
Then theres Timissons stella re energiser (or some such) whihc cause tyhe star to go nova, this device is carried by a simple torp and is not very big.
Timicin had to kill himself before developing his formula to correct the defect which manifested in his stellar revitialiser, and there is
zero evidence of its being replicated by anyone else or applied as a weapon. I've asked this before and I will ask it again: if the sunkiller weapons you insist must be found in the Federation and Dominion arsenals exist,
then why are none of these alleged weapons seen to be used in the actual goddam war?
As for this weapons not being used in war, if the US hadn't nuked Japan in the 2nd worl war would that mean then it couldn't use nukes as a weapon of war ever), for example can't ICBM's be used for war?
They can butthey have only been tested, while these weapons were only tested (for other reasons) they do have the effect an intended weapon would have.
Hasty Generalisation fallacy. The atomic bomb was designed and built for the express purpose of using it against Nazi Germany, only it collapsed before the first bombs were built. As we have seen in actual history, the U.S. used the weapons the moment they became available and were not seen by any except a few of the project scientists and the military chiefs as anything but the newest weapon in the arsenal, and the one which would
win the war.
As for ICBMs, their use was
always in the cards in the event of all-out superpower war and were prepared for launch during the Cuban Missile Crisis and held ready to go at a moment's notice. The missiles never flew because the crisis was resolved diplomatically before it came down to actual war. But none of the generals had any moral qualms about using the things. See Curtis LeMay.
Please provide quotes or reasoning to support your assertion that the wormhole doesn't contain the celestial temple or that Kasidy wasn't simply having a vision.
<snip quotation>
damaging the wormhole equates to damaging the celetial temple abnd the prophets since Kira is so concerned about the wormhole being destroyed her first questions raised are these so it would seem the prophets don't exist apart from the wormhole (which has always been refered to as the celetial temple).
Here you've been accusing
me of not making the conceptual seperation between the Bajoran idea of the wormhole aliens as the Prophets, seeing them as gods, and you turn right around and endorse the Bajoran idea that the wormhole
is the "Celestial Temple" and not merely the interdimensional passage to the aliens' dimension.
We also have the fact that once the wormhole was sealed all the orbs went dark, it could be argued that this was simlpy because the prophets were busy however this statement by Kira backs up another line of reasoning
that the celetial temple is the prophets main way of comtacting Bajor and that without it Bajor is cut off.
Which seems rather to support the idea that the wormhole is the passage
to the aliens' dimension and not the actual zone itself.
The Torp exmaple takes place before the wormhole was beefed up by the Founder the prophets closing and O'Brien's statement take place after take place after.
Recall that it was you who made the statement that because the aliens constructed the stable wormhole and therefore knew more about wormholes than the Federation, which hasn't the ability to construct stable wormholes, that it meant that the Federation couldn't conceivably know how to destroy the Bajoran wormhole, since it took "billions of times the energy the Federation has". "The Search" contradicted that argument. You fell upon that argument trying to support the contention that collapsing the wormhole had become physically impossible; an assertion which is contradicted by the actual collapse of the wormhole in "Tears Of The Prophets".
You seem to mixing up too seperate arguments - it may take more energy to close the wormhole than the Feds can muster.
How much more energy than that exerted by a single Pagh Wraith? Surely you are not going to try to argue that the Pagh Wraiths have more energy than whole star systems, are you?
The prophets built the wormhole thus they have a greater ability to understand it.
Nevermind the fact that Federationists and Romulans devised ways to collapse the damn thing and that the wormhole structure does not defy analysis.
Both show that the Prophets may be able to do things the Feds can't so their closing of the wormhole has no bearing on the Fed ability to do so.
Another hasty generalisation on your part.
You mix these up to be the prophets display more power because they can build a wormhoel or some suh, that isn't what I said and if you misread or I lead you somehow to believe that I am sorry however I have tried to make it very clear in this post because the way I said it last time seemed to be less clear than was necessary.
You don't even seem to know what the hell you're trying to say here, and you think you're making things clearer?
"The Circle" - he disobeys orders to stop himself failing in his orignal mission and he suceeds (plus he actaully gets by on a technicality), SF brings no charges because in the end Sisko actually aids SF.
His "original mission" was rescinded by order of Starfleet, and he was defying direct orders from his superiors. The outcome is merely incidental.
"The Die is Cast" - Sisko goes to rescue a crew member and is told that if he does something like that again a court martial could follow (or a promotion), aghain however no diadvantage to sf.
That Starfleet is reluctant to enforce discipline in its ranks (which helps create people like Adm. Layton) has no bearing on the issue at hand. Once again, Sisko is disobeying the orders of a superior and risking the Federation's involvement in a war it's not ready to fight.
"Way of the Warrior - Sisko does not start the Klingon federation war (it won't start for another year), Sisko also thinks he can reasonwith the Klingons proving that what he is doing isn't an act of war (it is simply a rescue mission not an act of war such as mining is). He is also fired upon first and makes eevr effort to stop things escalating therefore in the end all he does is rescue the Cardassian governemtn and provoke the Klingons a little, since rescunig the governemnt and talking Gowron into calling a cease fire with teh Cardassians he once again severs SF's interest and he does not violate orders.
Sisko does indeed start the war. He directly interfers with Klingon policy, in defiance of Federation policy. He alerts the Cardassian Central Command, indirectly, to the invasion.
He had no damn business interferring in the Klingon/Cardassian War in the first place. He disrupts the alliance between his government and its closest military partner and at a time when cooperation between the two powers is vital.
Without Sisko effectively giving aid to the declared enemies of the Klingon Empire, actively intervening on their behalf, there would never have been a Federation/Klingon War in the first place. Sisko set the antagonism between the allies in motion and thus started the war; the actual declaration date notwithstanding.
Your proposal : Sisko abandons a key miltary outpost to an enemy against standing orders and almost leads to teh destruction of the AQ yet SF simply ruffle his hair and them promote him to being an admirals aide after having him command several Key missions and then later a fleet of 600 ships).
Strawman argument. In "The Circle" trilogy, Sisko was given clear direct orders to abandon the station to the control of the Bajoran Provisional Government. This is stated directly in the episode. Furthermore, the destruction of the Alpha Quadrant was not at stake in that time period, and you damn well know it. Or had you forgotten that contact with the Dominion had not even been made at that time?
By contrast, in "A Call To Arms", Sisko was indeed abandoning a key military post to an enemy power which was actively invading the Alpha Quadrant and with which an active state of war was in force.
Also none of Siskos crew question the wisdom of this action not even his head os Strategical Operations.
Utterly immaterial. That makes them guilty of violations of regulations and direct orders as much as Sisko.
I cannot see how if he was in gross violation of orders (especially since SF not doubt reafirmed what it wanted done with the station) if got further key assignments, may position which I have explain reasons for fits the follwoing events and the lack of a court martial, yours does not.
No, you merely try to excuse away what are very evident violations of regulations and direct orders. Starfleet's unwillingness to enforce discipline in its ranks does not render the issue moot, no matter how much you think it does.
However this is all a non-issue since you are holding him responsible for not siezing SF resources in his own R&D venture when SF was far better suited to the task - SF also took no action to try and find a way to close the wormhole again therefore Siskos decision to not carry on with this was also matched by SF therefore to claim that this non follow through was because of devided loyalties doesn't explain why SF didn't try to close the wormhole again my theory that O'Brien was correct does therefore yuo theory over rules a canon statement and fails to explain what we see - it fails on two counts therefore it is not the correct theory.
Once more, you proceed from assuming the premise of the argument as the proof of the argument.
In picking through your incoherent statement, what we have is a situation where Sisko fails in his primary responsibility, to secure the Alpha Quadrant from invasion. Whether Starfleet is providing resources or not is not the issue, and is less important than you keep insisting since he has technical resources at hand with the station facilities available to him.
The 900 billion figure was based upon understanding of Dominion policy and the trends they follow plus Federation trends therefore it is valid unless you can prove otherwise and since they have have access to more intel than you do I believe that their conclusion has more grounding than yours therefore either disprove these figures or address them.
You "have better Intel than I do"? The only "intel" is what's in the damn episodes! There is no higher source of information than the actual canon material.
What are you saying exactly? The thinktank geniuses were withholding information from the audience? They didn't share all their files with the viewers? They're met in secret rooms when the writers weren't looking?
We do hear about ground fighting in canon and the status of Betazed is meationed again so you are incorrect on both counts.
SISKO
Second Fleet has hit the Dominion
forces occupying Betazed three
times in the last month. But
they're still bringing in more
reinforcements and fortifying
their positions on the surface so--
they continue to reinforce their position on the surface this indicates to us that the Dominion does fortify worlds it occupies, we also know that Benzar was liberated by the Romulans therefore ground fighting to retake worlds does occur, if the Federation sought to retake Bajor (under your argument about Sisko's visions not being helpfull) there would have been ground combat in addition to Dominion cracks downs on resistance thus Sisko did save lives and also made it easier to retake Bajor.
One. More. Time. The Dominion abandoned the Bajoran system because its military position had become untenable when their reinforcements didn't come out of the wormhole. Sisko's visions about the locusts have nothing to do with this. The Dominion would have been compelled to withdraw in any event, regardless of what Bajor's political status had been prior to the war.
The quote regarding Betazed is not definitive, and can be interpreted as attacks against Dominion orbital forces, or bombardment of ground positions from orbit. You do get a half-point for demonstrating that the series does refer to Federation counterattacks against the Dominion there. But we are then talking about conditions during an active state of siege and not a contradiction of the observed Dominion political policy.
We weren't arguing about whatever occurred on Benzar. That the Romulans retook the planet from the Dominion is not in dispute. That is must have involved a ground invasion is logical enough. But your attempt to use Benzar as an example which somehow contradicts what we observed of the Dominion's political pacificaiton policy to weaken the Federation's overall position is not contradicted by conditions during an active state of siege. Neither is the Dominion's response to the Cardassian resistance movement, which I've already addressed.
Please refrain from baseless insults, you state I don't have canon proof and accuse me of lying, I present said proof and I don't get an apology (or most often even a concession).
"Baseless insults" eh? How many times did you repeatedly invoke a wholly mythical "respect for property" policy and how many times were you challenged to provide your supports for the assertion? How many times have we found you simply distorting wholesale portions of my arguments?
Please justify your position relating to the comparision of Bajor and Betazed taking into account the differing cultutre iof both and how the Dominion treates resistance since I have obviously misunderstood you in previous posts.
My position has nothing to do with the extant cultures but with the OBSERVED DOMINION POLITICAL POLICY of pacification to pull away populations under Dominion control to demonstrate that the Dominion was a power that could be "trusted"?
We know that the Dominion would not attack an ally we do not now how they treated the world they occupied, we do however know how they treated worlds that ressited them (Cardassians, planet from Quickening, Wyoun saying its better to destroy earth than allow it to be the center of a ressitance movement).
Weyoun's suggestion regarding Earth was assuming an imminent Dominion victory in the war. It had nothing to do with the policy the Dominion was pursuing
while the war was undecided. Neither does the situation after the Cardassian resistance began active operations and sabotage, and at the time that the Dominion was losing the war. Neither does the planet from "The Quickening".
You equate Bajor the ally with Bajot the occupied Federation world the two are seperate.
One more strawman. I am making no such equation, and only a very deliberately distorted reading of my words even comes close to yielding that result.
On the Betazed issue you have said yourself we have very little info on what happens there thus to claim that this lack of info indicates that harsh dominion rule isn't taking place is rather silly (I don't wish to flame but I can't think of another way to describe it).
The burden of proof is to demonstrate evidence of harsh overlordship on Betazed. No such evidence exists, however. We do have the example of what Dominion policy in the AQ was while the war was undecided and what its political aims were during that period. This makes political pacification the default assumption.
We have several canon pieces of evidence showing how the Dominion deals with resistance if you cannot prove that these were rare instances and that another attitude was prevalent to occupied worlds (not worlds they had treaties with such as Bajor) then you cannot contniue to claim that these instances were odd for some reason.
See above.
Also again the differance between Betazed and Bajor is relevant here however that issue is pendnig until you restate it next time.
Again, see above.
I would also like a quote on Weyouns policy of political pacification please.
We have Weyoun vetoing Dukat's proposed occupation policies. We have Weyoun agreeing readily to rearm the Bajoran station security forces (though in exchange for Odo's joining the station's council). We have Weyoun negotiating with Jake Sisko for conditions under which he will grant a press interview. We have Weyoun going out of his way to assure Maj. Kira that the dispatch of 400 Vorta does not constitute the beginning of an armed occupation of Bajor itself. These examples point to a political strategy aimed at presenting the Dominion as reasonable. Subversion and bribery are part of the Vorta approach, as when Weyoun slyly offered Sisko himself an opportunity at immortality through Vorta cloning technology. This is not contraindicated by Female Changeling's plans for the future of the Alpha Quadrant, nor Weyoun's willingness to carry out reprisals when ordered to do so.
You argue we have clear instances of the Dominion treating occupied terroritories in a certain way yet Betazed and Benzar the only occupied worlds we nkow of have very little information on how they were treated you yyourself have admitted this therefore please provide evidence for how these occupied worlds were treateed and rememebr Bajor was not occupied as Weyoun was at pains to stress on many occassions) we also have Odo saying this.
ODO
I hate to say it, but he's right.
The Dominion seems determined to
show it can be a friend to Bajor.
This is because they have a treaty and thus it isn't an occupation (more info on this latter once I understand where you stand since you believe I don't).
Asked and answered
repeatedly.
Bajor had no troops placed on it if it was a Federation memebr it would have had troops placed upon it, I beg you nkow to drop this red herring about the future plans unless you can prove its relevant the visions were to save Bajor in the short term what does the long term plans of the Dominion have to do with this, I don't see the connection please justify it or let the matter drop.
The "future plans" are
not a red herring. Female Changeling speaks directly to breaking the solids' attatchment to their own freedom in "Favour The Bold". She says this to Odo.
Furthermore, the simplistic equation that Bajor would have been occupied had it joined the Federation is not supportable, no matter how much you dearly believe it so. For a start, as I've stated, the Dominion could not waste the resources for a full occupation. It needed a stable political base upon the system where the key to the Alpha Quadrant was located to be able to carry out itw overall war effort. Without access to the wormhole, it's position on Bajor is tenuous.
Even if Bajor had joined the Federation when it had been slated to do so, it's integration into the UFP would have barely begun. Bajor's political status would have still been in transition, and its membership in the Federation tenuous. It would still have been in the position to secede and declare itself neutral. Or it would have been offered a non-agression pact with the Dominion the same as it it had remained non-aligned
because it would have served the Dominion's interests to do so. Just as it did serve Dominion interests to do so in the course of events as they unfolded.
I do not dispute that Bajor was saved in the long term by Dominion defeat - I have never contested this point therefore we can put it to rest.
A condition independent of visions with a very uncertain interpretation given Sisko's mental state when he received them.
What I do assert and which should be (yet the focus seems to be wandering abit) contested by you to support your position is the fact that if Bajor had ben a federation rule it would have had a harher treatment in those first 3 months before the Feds pushed the Dominion back.
That is the assumption you keep leaping to. An assumption which has to ignore where the Dominion's interests lay and how they unfolded in the course of the opening sixth season arc.
As I have quoted above the safety of the wormhole aliens was taken into consideration by SF thats why the plan inovled technobable instead of a few torps - this is clear in the quote I provided earlier however it is also clear due to the fact that an exotic means was used instead of a few torps.
The only person who keeps yammering on about the possible deaths of the wormhole aliens in this entire thread has been you, Darkling. Nobody else. I've said that Starfleet didn't take the fate of the alens into consideration, although Lenara Kahn of Trill may have done so.
But the fact that Sisko relies upon a technobabble plan designed towards insuring that the aliens will not be harmed (a very great unknown) first and foremost instead of a simple, reliable, brute force solution to ensure the collapse of the wormhole only supports my original contention, that his role as Emissary became confused in his scale of priorities with his role as a Starfleet officer.
I did not however assert that is did require siome many X times of energy to collapse the wormhole, I have already clarified this omnce however if you want it more clear paste the quote in and I will point out that i said it may have taken x amount of hat it may have been some weird ability however the fact remains that the wormhole aliens and the Federation doo have differing abilites and thus just because the wormhole aliens are capable of something doesn't mean the Fedration is.
And again, you try to say that the aliens' special knowledge makes an act of destruction impossible.
It is possible to close the wormhole but not destropy it as we are told here.
<snip quote>
Therefore it can be done any arguments based upon RL physics over riding ST physics will not work so unless you have another canon quote to overule this one then it stands and what I stated is correct.
Oh, I hate to tell you this, but RL physics is relevant except only where suspension of disbelief rules must allow a thing (such as warp drive, for example). Read the site for confirmation on that one.
If you have stated yuo undertsnad that the search tackes place before the beefing up of the wormhole then what is the point of stating it since it has no relevance, please explain why it is relevant because I fail to grasp this.
Another point which is asked and answered, repeatedly. I've said that it is relevant because you denied flat-out at one point that the Federation could have pulled off the collapse of the wormhole because of the aliens' "special knowledge" and that they had "billions of times the energy the Federation had". Now you desperately try to crawfish your way out of the statement you got called on.
I have already addressed the fact that closing wormhole does not equal destroying it - yuo have a number of argument based upon this fact please refute what I have said or abbandon those theories.
Denial of an issue is not addressing it.
This is not abuot the realism of DS9
Have you forgotten the very title of this thread, perchance?
this is about Siskos bias towards the prophets and it has always been the realsim of DS9 is irrelevant to the issue we are discussing.
It takes twisted reasoning to try to advance that statement as legitimate. Everything Sisko does or fails to do in the series does indeed bear upon the overall realism of lack thereof of
Deep Space Nine. There is no seperating the two.
He has a destiny on Bajor, I wouldn't disagree with that he was after all created (or his birth was engineered) by a race who can see the future thus as Kasidy says here
<snip quote>
I wouldn't contest that at all however as i have said you have yet to prove just because he identifies with the Bajorans means he puts them above his duty to SF. The one thing does not equal the other thus while I agree with the point you raise here it doesn't actually support your argument.
The fact that Sisko relies upon an exotic technobabble approach to collapsing the wormhole out of consideration of not harming the aliens as opposed to a far more certain brute-force approach destroys that contention.
While Sisko here does say he can't go aginst the prophets he has already done so on many occassions prehaps after the events with the wormhole being closed he has learned to listen to the prophets - if soeone had proven to me beyond all doubt they could se ethe future and they told me not to go outside tomorrow then I think I would stay indoors.
Their view into the future (or at the least their word regarding it) is about as accurate as any prophecy —extremely vague. It turns out that things work out the way they would have even if the aliens had said nothing whatsoever. Sisko makes the decisions he is bound to due to the circumstance of the moment. The point is that we clearly see Sisko go from regarding the wormhole aliens as aliens with extraordinary abilities to accepting more and more the Bajoran view of the Prophets. Round about the episode "Asecssion", he has clearly crossed the line between diplomatic Starfleet officer and Bajoran religious leader.
I dont deny it because its obvious however your accusation of him putting Bajor first has yet to be proven for example a cop could arrest a member of his family even though they are his family if he doesn't arrest them then he has allowed his personal feelings to overcome his oath of loaylty you have proven that Sisko towards the end of the series (really only after he learns he is part prophet) considers himself of kin with the Bajorans/Prophets however you haven't shown that he allows this overide his oath to SF.
No, Darkling
—you have done that by pointing out Sisko's resort to an overly complicated technobabble method to collapsing the wormhole instead of simple brute-force for fear of harming the wormhole aliens and cutting off the source of the Bajoran religion. And it is less a matter of his "oath to Starfleet" being overridden as much as his loyalties (re: priorities) becoming confused.
it seems to me that once again he did go against the will of the prophets (and while it didn't lead to disaster he probably should have listened to them).
So I agree with hat you are saying to a point (Sisko says he won't disobey the prophets although on this matter his oath to SF isn't invovled) however later he puts his personel interests above theirs and since in the past he puts SF before himself that would imlpy that he still puts SF first.
I am quite aware of Sisko marrying Kassidy (as you quoted) in spite of the warning from the Sarah-Prophet entity that it would lead to suffering. Given his trip to the Fire Caves, even if he hadn't married Kassidy, the result would have been suffering.
That's the problem with prophecies. They're so damn vague that they can be made to fit just about any situation.
) and we are told they will survive the wormholes collapse - just accept canon and stop crying - you just keep ignoring canon, how can you think this is a valid tactic?
) just in time.
no it doesn't - I simply fail to convey what I'm saying I'm not sure where the fault lies but you don't comprehend what I am saying.