Posted: 2006-06-15 08:25pm
Shep, don't you think the Comet was a bit of a latecomer for this scenario?
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This is one thing I absolutely despise about historical "What If" scenarios; a RW line of development cannot be assumed to follow a similar, or even vaguely similar path without the exact same situations acting on the exact same people involved, at the exact same times.thejester wrote:Was there a signifigant delay of the Comet in OTL? They had to push the Cromwell through first to get to that stage afteralll...
Unless Hitler fires his bomb maker and puts someone else in charge, the Germans will never get the bomb first. The people in charge were going in the wrong direction.Trogdor wrote:Speaking of tech, it's possible that in this situation the Nazis may be the first makers of the atomic bomb, since Hitler was very interested in it and might've gotten it first if not for the continual sabotage from the allies. IIRC, most of that sabotage was done by the US and the British, and I doubt that Stalin could've been as effective.
They had enough far-range craft to assault the factories within their bombing range. They just fucked it up and didn't do it for MONTHS while the USSR evacuated the bulk of it's factories to Sibera and the Urals. So what prevents them from the fuck up again? Nothing.One difference: the Germans didn't have strategic bombers.
16%, actually. If being precise. However, that's largely irrelevant for the dates of the debate - in 1941-1942 the lend-lease fighter shipment was minimal. By the end of 1941, the lend-lease fighter shipments were a total of 25 fighters. By November 1942, the fighter numbers went up to 211, which is still not much (around 10% of the deployed fighter force and even less that of fighter production). Producing an extra 10-16% fighters would not be a problem; neither can a lack of 10-16% fighters radically alter the situation on the front. The Soviet AF didn't gain superiority until very late into the war, which did not hinder the Soviet offensives in a major way.About 15-20% of "Soviet" fighters were Lend-Lease
We don't know what kind of fighters they will get in this scenario. The I-185 could be ready without a war in 1941. The allies will be less experienced and might be missing some aircraft they had in 1942.The Dark wrote: Their fighters in 1942 would be the LaGG-3, MiG-1 and MiG-3, Yak-1, and a handful of La-5. They were the basis for very good fighters, but only the MiG-3 and La-5 are fully developed fighters.
Yeah, true. Although the general percentage of lend-lease benzin in the Soviet production was something like 18%, it was very high-octane (much of the shipment had octane number over 99. The Soviet Union used this benzin to mix it with own lower-octane benzin to get better fuels.I don't remember the precise figure, but didn't Sovs get a significant amount of high-octane avgas from the US because at the time they lacked the tech to refine it in such quantities?
Um... as I said earlier, the Soviet Military Air Force would be utterly smashed just as it was; and would not gain superiority or parity until later in the war. That would happen, nevermind the strategic bombings. Also, the strategic bombings were not carried out by the Germans, despite having the range to destroy the industy. This mistake was fatal, as evacuation to Siberia means no more possibilities for bombing.How would this affect the Red Air Force versus the Luftwaffe/RAF/French Air Force contest, along with the RAF's soon to come heavy bombers and 'Bomber Harris' running things in the RAF's Bomber Command?
No, he would not. Actually, his interest was in smashing "Jew-Bolshevism" once and for all, and then also a lot of other things. But don't think that it was just the fool Hitler - actually, Hitler was a genocidal conqueror, but the real annihilation plans were carried out deep inside the Ostministerium, which also got power from such figures as Himmler and Borman - so there were more fucktards involved in the genocide than just mister H., and it would be hard to make the whole bunch of Nazi elite suddenly abandon their genocidal mission. In fact, that would be impossible.Also when considering this ATL you have to think that Hitler would have moderated his most objectionable (yeah, I know it's unlikely at best) policies in the interests of smashing Bolshevism once and for all.
You realize that airpower is merely an extension of firepower? It cannot occupy. It's really as simple as that: airpower is not the be all end all, moron.Camel wrote:Air power is the deciding force in WWII and wars since. Tanks are worthless when there are enemy planes over head. The t-34 would not be immune to dominating air strikes. The russians relied almost completely on their unlimited manpower, t-34, and snipers. With the british/german air power, german tanks, and german/british snipers; I think that the russians would have lost Moscow. Op barbarosa would have been a clear victory. With only T-34's to challenge the "allies" the overwhelming air power would have curb stomped the last of the russian army in a year. I will ignore the annoying insurgents; that would have no doubt continued, despite their already apparent defeat.
That was just using current tech that was mass produced in 41-43. If the germans had thoroughly researched and produced the jet and rocket planes they had already been developing? The british were also doing the same. Their development combined could have advanced jet/rocket propulsion a decade ahead in a few years. Tanks, are, and have been obsolete since WWII.
Let me clarify quickly. Armor isn't obsolete. Just look at iraq. Tanks are just way too heavy, massively over armored, and the gun is unnecessary in light of availability of air power.
I realize that air power is totally offensive. You know, there is the german panzer divisions, entire german army, entire british army, the shitty french army to occupy the captured territories.PFC Brungardt wrote:You realize that airpower is merely an extension of firepower? It cannot occupy. It's really as simple as that: airpower is not the be all end all, moron.
As of this moment, I am not taking anything you say seriously. Damnit where is that Iraqi Colonels quote about his T-72 numbers against the awesome firepower of Desert Storms airforce vs the Abrams that came later...Camel wrote:Air power is the deciding force in WWII and wars since. Tanks are worthless when there are enemy planes over head.
Um... did you just miss the bit about the total decimation of the airforce and nonetheless, massive offensive operations in face of a superior enemy?Air power is the deciding force in WWII and wars since
Tell that to Soviet tankists.Tanks are worthless when there are enemy planes over head.
Of course it wouldn't be immune to air strikes - it's like, just a tank, and you could kill it with many ways. But what the hell are "dominating air strikes" - there isn't even such a term.The t-34 would not be immune to dominating air strikes
Wow. That's such bullshit my eyes just hurt. "Unlimited" manpower? Snipers? Completely relied? What were you smoking exactly, dude? "Unlimited" manpower is not enough to win wars since the invention of machine gunThe russians relied almost completely on their unlimited manpower, t-34, and snipers.
Of course, you fail to mention a single true military reason for that, because you just spawned some random bullshit (T-34's, snipers, unlimited manpower!!! teh phear!!!).With the british/german air power, german tanks, and german/british snipers; I think that the russians would have lost Moscow
Do you even know the goals of Barbarossa and why it was a complete disaster? No, you don't. Just random bullshit.Op barbarosa would have been a clear victory.
My eyes hurt again. "Tanks" don't "challenge" air power, you idiot. Tanks and air forces take part in defensive and offensive operations against an enemy force, where tactics and methods are the key.With only T-34's to challenge the "allies" the overwhelming air power would have curb stomped the last of the russian army in a year.
I guess you will have a lot of fun with your 3000 km-long supply linesI will ignore the annoying insurgents
You didn't even name any of the tech "produced" in 41-43 aside from T-34. That alone shows your level of knowledge about war.That was just using current tech that was mass produced in 41-43.
They would have rocked planes? And if the Russians had thoroughly researched and produced the rocket planes they had already been developing? And if you burn your brain out with a candle, you'd have no brain, right? This is not a game of silly what-ifs, it's a fucking warIf the germans had thoroughly researched and produced the jet and rocket planes they had already been developing?
You apparently missed the part which says the parties start with the equipment they had, not the one they COULD get. I could suck out of my shining ass new, super-duper BI's too - so what?Their development combined could have advanced jet/rocket propulsion a decade ahead in a few years.
Really? Or maybe you know jack shit about tanks, and jack shit about military organisation in general?Tanks, are, and have been obsolete since WWII.
Oh really? Or perhaps the Iraqi army as a battle force is a piece of shit, and also has not maintained and upgraded it's obsolete tanks, no?Armor isn't obsolete. Just look at iraq. Tanks are just way too heavy, massively over armored, and the gun is unnecessary in light of availability of air power.
If you don't care then why did you clomp in here with both feet and firmly announce your ignorance asstard? You are trolling my thread and I won't put up with you polluting this one as you've done with the others you've cared enough to participate in. Your witty little comment about watching the History Channel clearly shows your intent to be an ass. Telling another poster how to debate you is also a no no. If you made 13 fucking points then someone is more than welcome to challenge you on your 13 points.Camel wrote:Bush,
I am not going to spend way to much time responding to all 13 of your points. If you actually wanted to draw me into a debate; you should have focused on two or three of the most interesting ones. I just watch the history channel too much. I don't care nearly as much about this shit as you do.
Your post was total bullshit from beginning to the end, that's why I dismantled it. You have no "points", except ignorance and random bullshit. If you watch the H. Channel, that's your problem, not mine. If you post in a history thread, be ready to be called on your bullshit. And if you don't care, then don't post. Frankly, I don't even want to debate history with someone as illusioned as you, and even less since you have clearly stated you have no interest in history.I am not going to spend way to much time responding to all 13 of your points. If you actually wanted to draw me into a debate; you should have focused on two or three of the most interesting ones. I just watch the history channel too much. I don't care nearly as much about this shit as you do.
So don't talk about this stuff if your only education is the History Channel. It's not the best of sources, and many of the people posting here, like Stas Bush, are serious history lovers.Camel wrote:Bush,
I am not going to spend way to much time responding to all 13 of your points. If you actually wanted to draw me into a debate; you should have focused on two or three of the most interesting ones. I just watch the history channel too much. I don't care nearly as much about this shit as you do.
I love WWII shit! I watch every episode that comes on the History Channel. WWII is by far my favorite subject most of the time. I am not a scholar. I don't know all these little details. I love WWII shit. All I can offer to this discussion is my general opinion.Stravo wrote: If you don't care then why did you clomp in here with both feet and firmly announce your ignorance asstard? Consider this a warning.
Camel wrote:I love WWII shit! I watch every episode that comes on the History Channel. WWII is by far my favorite subject most of the time. I am not a scholar. I don't know all these little details. I love WWII shit. All I can offer to this discussion is my general opinion.Stravo wrote: If you don't care then why did you clomp in here with both feet and firmly announce your ignorance asstard? Consider this a warning.
Planes are overrated as tankkillers. They got the least amout of kills compared to other types of tank killers. The british pilots use outdated tactics in 41-42. No wonder that pilots like Hans-Joachim Marseille got so many kills in a short amount of time. Logistics will be the main problem for the allies. More troops need more supplies add some communist sabotuers in allied countries and the allies will suffer napoleons fate.Camel wrote: You are missing the point. If you have air superiority you will win. Infinite tanks and infinite manpower will not help you if you are being bombed into oblivion.
In Bomber Harris, you had an enthusiastic supporter of strategic bombing, and with the heavy bombers of the RAF coming online about this time, he shortly would have had the means to strike at a lot of the relocated Soviet industry.Um... as I said earlier, the Soviet Military Air Force would be utterly smashed just as it was; and would not gain superiority or parity until later in the war. That would happen, nevermind the strategic bombings. Also, the strategic bombings were not carried out by the Germans, despite having the range to destroy the industy. This mistake was fatal, as evacuation to Siberia means no more possibilities for bombing.
Like I said, it's pretty unlikely he'd do so given his insistence at carrying out the Final Solution even at the expense of German military effectiveness when Germany was being badly beaten.No, he would not. Actually, his interest was in smashing "Jew-Bolshevism" once and for all, and then also a lot of other things. But don't think that it was just the fool Hitler - actually, Hitler was a genocidal conqueror, but the real annihilation plans were carried out deep inside the Ostministerium, which also got power from such figures as Himmler and Borman - so there were more fucktards involved in the genocide than just mister H., and it would be hard to make the whole bunch of Nazi elite suddenly abandon their genocidal mission. In fact, that would be impossible.