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Hmm.. would Darth Maul's ship be classified as a heavy fighter? After all, it was equiped like one, and it travelled from Coruscant to Tantooine and even made a trip to Naboo thereafter.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Hmm.. would Darth Maul's ship be classified as a heavy fighter? After all, it was equiped like one, and it travelled from Coruscant to Tantooine and even made a trip to Naboo thereafter.

I believe it was labelled as 'armed courier' or something like that, but when you can have a freight ship involved in dogfights (the Falcon) then why not a courier? They travel the same medium, and a courier needs to be quite agile, so I guess you could've called it Heavy Fighter as well...

vakundok wrote:In preparation to make the movies, the star destroyers were planned to carry Tie Assault crafts, somewhat resembling to Vader's Tie.
Also a different prototype model was created seen here. (As I recall, a different image of it is on the Behind the magic disk.)

There was several more prototypes actually. TIE Advanced X1 through X7. After which there was several production models of the TIE Advanced, at least three.

vakundok wrote:Since we have evidence for detachable hyperdrive pods, Kenobi's comment is somewhat weird now.

Where do we have any evidence that TIE fighters has ever used detachable hyperdrive pods? I mean, it's obviously possible. But there never was one. Before screaming that lack of evidence is no evidence, I'll point out that there is one exception to that rule, and that's when you would expect evidence to show up but something is amiss.

Such as having no planet where the gravitational forces prove that there must be one... in this case, we should expect a detachable hyperdrive pod for TIE fighters to have been at least mentioned in passing. It's an old idea, it came up with the Cloakshape long before AOTC. Most likely TIE Fighters aren't constructed to use pods.

Elfdart wrote:Notice how EU hacks, because of their inability to (a) read and (b) use simple logic end up making things in the GFFA far more convoluted than a spinoff from a Saturday matinee movie should be?

Amen.

I feel the same way about "Corellian bloodstripes" and "Blizzard Force."

Han doesn't just happen to wear striped trousers. No, the stripes have a backstory and he sewed them on (which begged an additional explanation for why his trousers in TESB had yellow stripes--which the EU gave us, to the joy of all the minutiae-lovers).

And the snowtroopers in TESB aren't just stormtroopers outfitted in cold-weather gear. No, they're an elite division of troops that are specially trained, equipped and named for the express purpose of fighting in arctic conditions.

Galvatron wrote:Han doesn't just happen to wear striped trousers. No, the stripes have a backstory and he sewed them on (which begged an additional explanation for why his trousers in TESB had yellow stripes--which the EU gave us, to the joy of all the minutiae-lovers).

...Huh?

And the snowtroopers in TESB aren't just stormtroopers outfitted in cold-weather gear. No, they're an elite division of troops that are specially trained, equipped and named for the express purpose of fighting in arctic conditions.

Dude, I thought the Snowtroopers were elite, but only because they're General Veers' and Vader's forces. A Sith Lord's personal fleet probably would have the best of the best.

Not that it matters.

Galvatron wrote:And the snowtroopers in TESB aren't just stormtroopers outfitted in cold-weather gear. No, they're an elite division of troops that are specially trained, equipped and named for the express purpose of fighting in arctic conditions.

Wait, aren't some real combat units specifically trained to fight in specific climate conditions (indeed, don't we have bases in Alaska, Northern Europe, etc. expressely for that purpose)? I mean, certainly, it's not like they couldn't fight in other conditions, and Vader probably had numerous other trooper cores with him just on the Executor and the Death Squadron, like the 501st.

IIRC, and according to the Brian Daley novels, the stripes on Han's trousers are a military decoration that he sewed on as a nod to his earlier service as an Imperial starfleet officer.

They're red, hence the "blood" in bloodstripes.

TESB, in which Han wore yellow stripes on his trousers, came after the Daley novels.

Naturally, since Daley came up with an explanation for the red stripes, someone had to come with an explanation for the yellow stripes as well, lest the universe unravel if people were to ignore Daley's EU explanation in favor of regarding Han's predilection for wearing striped trousers as a mere fashion choice.

So what's the explanation for the yellow stripes? They're less important bloodstripes (yes, they're still called bloodstripes despite their color--go figure) and Han started wearing them instead because the red ones were somewhat rare, making him stand out, which attracted too much unwanted attention from bounty hunters, etc.

Noble Ire wrote:Wait, aren't some real combat units specifically trained to fight in specific climate conditions (indeed, don't we have bases in Alaska, Northern Europe, etc. expressely for that purpose)? I mean, certainly, it's not like they couldn't fight in other conditions, and Vader probably had numerous other trooper cores with him just on the Executor and the Death Squadron, like the 501st.

Check out the discussion in this old thread...

Galvatron wrote:

Noble Ire wrote:Wait, aren't some real combat units specifically trained to fight in specific climate conditions (indeed, don't we have bases in Alaska, Northern Europe, etc. expressely for that purpose)? I mean, certainly, it's not like they couldn't fight in other conditions, and Vader probably had numerous other trooper cores with him just on the Executor and the Death Squadron, like the 501st.

Check out the discussion in this old thread...

Okay...

Opinions seemed pretty mixed. I still like the concept of a unit of Stormtroopers with special but not exlcusive training in cold combat, which Vader either had onboard along with other, similar groups, or had sent to him before arriving at Hoth. Besides, its not like all of them had to be specialized troops; indeed, elements of the 501st were canonically deployed to Hoth as part of Blizzard Force.

There was several more prototypes actually. TIE Advanced X1 through X7. After which there was several production models of the TIE Advanced, at least three.

What's the source on his? Never heard it, but it sounds interesting.

Noble Ire wrote:Okay...

Opinions seemed pretty mixed. I still like the concept of a unit of Stormtroopers with special but not exlcusive training in cold combat, which Vader either had onboard along with other, similar groups, or had sent to him before arriving at Hoth. Besides, its not like all of them had to be specialized troops; indeed, elements of the 501st were canonically deployed to Hoth as part of Blizzard Force.

I thought the contrast of opinions between those posters with military experience and those without was rather interesting, however...

Galvatron wrote:

Noble Ire wrote:Okay...

Opinions seemed pretty mixed. I still like the concept of a unit of Stormtroopers with special but not exlcusive training in cold combat, which Vader either had onboard along with other, similar groups, or had sent to him before arriving at Hoth. Besides, its not like all of them had to be specialized troops; indeed, elements of the 501st were canonically deployed to Hoth as part of Blizzard Force.

I thought the contrast of opinions between those posters with military experience and those without was rather interesting, however...

Knife's point (for example) about over-specialization was certainly a valid one, but I'm still not sure it necessarily discounts this case. Having an elite, specialized force on some random patrolling Star Destroyer might be a bad idea, but I don't see why none would exist at all, and if they did, Vader would likely have priority if he requested them.

Nevertheless, the credibility of the idea is rather streched, I'll admit, although not completely silly (as many EU ideas are).

Galvatron wrote:

Noble Ire wrote:Okay...

Opinions seemed pretty mixed. I still like the concept of a unit of Stormtroopers with special but not exlcusive training in cold combat, which Vader either had onboard along with other, similar groups, or had sent to him before arriving at Hoth. Besides, its not like all of them had to be specialized troops; indeed, elements of the 501st were canonically deployed to Hoth as part of Blizzard Force.

I thought the contrast of opinions between those posters with military experience and those without was rather interesting, however...

I see what you mean. Personally I think it's more plausible that Stormtroopers would have different equipment for different things. I don't have a problem with the Stormtroopers on the Executor being of elite units, simply because it's Vader's command and he would have the best of the best available to him; I don't see why this would mean Blizzard force solely operates in arctic conditions (if that is what is being argued here).

(I didn't know what you meant by 'snowtroopers' or 'sandtroopers' earlier, so I misunderstood)

It isn't impossible they were CALLED 'blizzard force' for that operation, or that they used cold-weather equipment. It's the idea they maintain units specifically for this sort of thing and nothing else that's crazy.

I don't worry too much about that one since what a unit is trained for and where it gets sent are often two different things. The special unit from The Devil's Brigade (elite Canucks and American misfits) were given a lot of snow and cold weather training since they were supposed to be sent into Norway. They ended up in Tuscany instead.

"Corellian Blood Stripes"? They should change it to "EU Hack White Splotches" if they're going to do that much wanking.

It's early-EU standard, though: take anything, no matter how minor or how often it's referenced in the movies, and make it a titanic, important, galaxy-shaking thing. Every bullshit minor character, every off-hand reference to ships, planets and technology - stretch them all into novels, constantly self-reference the EU hackwork, and eventually people will accept the fairytale bullshit as 'based on the movie where they said 'Ord Mantell' once' or 'Bespin mined Tibanna'.

Elfdart wrote:"Corellian Blood Stripes"? They should change it to "EU Hack White Splotches" if they're going to do that much wanking.

EU Hack White Splotches @ Wookieepedia

Stark wrote:It's early-EU standard, though: take anything, no matter how minor or how often it's referenced in the movies, and make it a titanic, important, galaxy-shaking thing. Every bullshit minor character, every off-hand reference to ships, planets and technology - stretch them all into novels, constantly self-reference the EU hackwork, and eventually people will accept the fairytale bullshit as 'based on the movie where they said 'Ord Mantell' once' or 'Bespin mined Tibanna'.

Because, as everyone knows, Corellians have no use for odds.

Stackpole actually wrote that in one of his X-wing books.

In the immortal words of Spottswoode:


Jesus Tittyfucking Christ!

Galvatron wrote:IIRC, and according to the Brian Daley novels, the stripes on Han's trousers are a military decoration that he sewed on as a nod to his earlier service as an Imperial starfleet officer.

They're red, hence the "blood" in bloodstripes.

TESB, in which Han wore yellow stripes on his trousers, came after the Daley novels.

Naturally, since Daley came up with an explanation for the red stripes, someone had to come with an explanation for the yellow stripes as well, lest the universe unravel if people were to ignore Daley's EU explanation in favor of regarding Han's predilection for wearing striped trousers as a mere fashion choice.

So what's the explanation for the yellow stripes? They're less important bloodstripes (yes, they're still called bloodstripes despite their color--go figure) and Han started wearing them instead because the red ones were somewhat rare, making him stand out, which attracted too much unwanted attention from bounty hunters, etc.

...so Han Solo was the only man in the galaxy to wear red striped pants? Are you shitting me?

Sorry, when I clicked on preview, it throw me out and since it was 1 am here, I was unwilling to rewrite it.

nightmare wrote:There was several more prototypes actually. TIE Advanced X1 through X7. After which there was several production models of the TIE Advanced, at least three.

OK, it is new to me. I do not know whether these materials can be used in a "movie only" discussion.

nightmare wrote:Where do we have any evidence that TIE fighters has ever used detachable hyperdrive pods? I mean, it's obviously possible. But there never was one. Before screaming that lack of evidence is no evidence, I'll point out that there is one exception to that rule, and that's when you would expect evidence to show up but something is amiss.

Such as having no planet where the gravitational forces prove that there must be one... in this case, we should expect a detachable hyperdrive pod for TIE fighters to have been at least mentioned in passing. It's an old idea, it came up with the Cloakshape long before AOTC. Most likely TIE Fighters aren't constructed to use pods.

While in the EU Ties are to be attached and dragged to hyperspace, most likely such pods were never constructed or existing ones modified.
Agreed. However note that "most likely" is an assumption, not a fact.
Kenobi's reasoning was that that because a fighter was of a short range type, a visually identical could not come from far away.
I used the hyperdrive pod in my example because it was from the movie. In the EU, many types of short range fighters were modified with added built in hyperdrive (according to the database Delta 7, V 19 and V wing), but I do not know, whether they retained their original visual form.
Since we saw it was technologically possible, that statement requires complete overview of all the Tie forces and experimental projects on Kenobi's side.
In your opinion we have an overview complete enough not to allow the miss of any such things. In my opinion a specially equipped figther squad can easily fit here and there to our current overview.
I do not think this difference in POVs could really be argued.

Everytime someone says something bad about the EU, I always have the feeling "Look it's not bad just give it a chance." Then something stupid like that gets revealed and I hang my head in shame.

vakundok wrote:OK, it is new to me. I do not know whether these materials can be used in a "movie only" discussion.

No, just those seen onscreen, obviously.

vakundok wrote:In your opinion we have an overview complete enough not to allow the miss of any such things. In my opinion a specially equipped figther squad can easily fit here and there to our current overview. I do not think this difference in POVs could really be argued.

It can't, only discussed. A TIE modified for a hyperspace pod might be visually different though. It would likely only be small details notable to someone who knows fighters well, but it could be argued that Ben is such a person. Or we can just chalk it up to force intuition.

Stofsk wrote:Everytime someone says something bad about the EU, I always have the feeling "Look it's not bad just give it a chance." Then something stupid like that gets revealed and I hang my head in shame.

I gave the EU plenty of chances. In fact, I used to like it despite its flagrant hackery.

Nowadays I'm so soured on Star Wars, I've come to the realization that I only really like ANH and TESB. The rest could be erased from existence for all I care.

Could this be the long-range-fighter?

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/comics ... etail1.jpg

IIRC in the comic Luke has to face two of those far away from every capital ship. Wouldn't that suggest, that they have to be hyperspace-capable?

FTeik wrote:Could this be the long-range-fighter?

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/comics ... etail1.jpg

IIRC in the comic Luke has to face two of those far away from every capital ship. Wouldn't that suggest, that they have to be hyperspace-capable?

Real-life answer: the artist used the Kenner toy as his model.

Movie answer: those things don't exist.

EU answer: Great idea! If we can label every poorly drawn ISD from the comics as a different class of warship, why not do the same with fighters?