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Jade Falcon wrote:
I remember the Imperial Sourcebook for the WEG SW RPG's tried to elaborate on the role of a Grand Moff.

A Moff was a sector governor with a fixed territory and the assets to go with it.

A Grand Moff however did not have a fixed territory and was also regarded as having a 'priority sector' role which meant he could go practically anywhere and requisition men and materials temporarily from Sector Moffs. Basically this could be a troubleshooter, albeit sometimes one on a grand scale.

I'm aware that the canon status of RPG material is somewhat shakey, but it might be true.

So a Grand Moff is like a traveling Moff? Like a Moff that can get resources from a system to use IN that system? But he does not actually get a sector of his own. Am I reading this right? Or did I miss the idea completely?

RedImperator wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:

RedImperator wrote:But the attack did not fail.

Because of a stroke of pure luck. Because the Rebels happened to have a Force-user who decided to actually use the Force instead of trusting his computer. Otherwise, however, the attack was very clearly on the edge of failure: most of the Rebel fighters had been shot down and they were down to their last pilot. There would have been no time for a fourth try.

A stroke of pure luck which wouldn't have mattered in the slightest if Tarkin had put up enough fighters to prevent the Rebels from making the attack run at all.

Which means exactly jack and shit considering that Tarkin's countermeasures even as they were had proven largely effective. This is seen in the movie. Argue against it as much as you like.

Big. Fucking. Deal. The movie clearly shows that the attack was about to fail. I don't know how many times this has to be pointed out to you.

Since when is "we almost stopped a force 1/1000th our size from blowing up our planet-smashing battlestation" any kind of adequate performance?

Which means exactly jack and shit considering that Tarkin's countermeasures even as they were had proven largely effective. This is seen in the movie. Argue against it as much as you like.

For that matter, Vader must have thought there was a chance they could cause some harm (or at the very least, was showing more prudence than Tarkin), because he launched his personal squadron to deal with the threat once it became apparent the turbolasers weren't working.

And that rebuttal might carry weight had it not been for the fact that TIE fighters appear on scene before Darth Vader launched with his wingmen. Which means Tarkin had actually launched fighters to deal with the threat. Which means more were on standby. Which means Tarkin was not ignoring the threat.

Conceded on that point, but he still didn't put up an adequate defenses. He could have prevented the Rebels from taking a shot at the exhaust port entirely, in which case no fluke of bad luck would have saved the rebellion. Explain to me, if you're in command of a battlestation with only one weakness, why would you let an enemy force get near it when you had the forces at your disposal to prevent it?

Ah, I see that we're expecting perfect performance which actually never happens in real-world combat situations and this is your basis for the charge against Tarkin? You tell me, genius, how often a large force is scrambled to combat a miniscule-scale threat in the real world, because that doesn't happen either. Tarkin had no reason to deploy more fighters to deal with at most two dozen X-Wings, and the defence he did put up had succeeded in whittling down the Rebel attack literally to their last pilot.

I have no interest in "salvaging the Grand Moff's reputation"; I am reminding you of what actually unfolded in the fucking movie which does not lend credence to your argument that Tarkin ignored the threat, nor that the attack was going to succeed without a heavier TIE screen defending the station. The movie shows otherwise. The movie shows the attack succeded only through the intervention of pure, blind luck. Argue against that as much as you like and it will not alter one frame of film which stands as the evidence.

And not one iota or jot of that changes the fact the disaster was fully preventable by Tarkin. The Rebels never should have been in position to attempt that shot in the first place, a shot both sides thought was makable, regardless of how remote the chances actually were. So what if it was an unforseeable fluke that Luke was strong in the Force? Are commanders not responsible for preparing for the unexpected anymore?

Which means exactly jack and shit considering that Tarkin's countermeasures even as they were had proven largely effective. This is seen in the movie. Argue against it as much as you like.

He had no way of knowing it and there's absolutely no evidence he did know it. For that matter, we have no way of knowing if the shot was truly impossible based only on one near-miss from the first wave.

Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy.

You're the one asserting a non-Force user couldn't have made that shot.

Based on our seeing that an ordinary pilot in fact did miss. I'm sorry if the movie evidence just doesn't suit you.

The Rebels managed a near-miss on a difficult shot on their first attempt. The torpedo was physically capable of making the turn. It was only a matter of releasing them at the right moment--it could have been hit by blind luck, if nothing else, and I'm trying and failing to understand how it's prudent to let the Rebels get into position to win by blind luck when even that slim hope could have been easily denied them.

You keep blathering on that same point over and over and over and over again and really do not offer anything more than "it shouldn't have happened" as an argument when all is boiled down. Tarkin had fighters and AA up and from what we saw in the fucking movie the Rebel attack force had been whittled down to their last pilot. This does not lend credence to the charge that the defensive measures were inadequate.

No, he was releasing only that portion of his forces required to deal with the scale of the threat he was faced with. And as we see in the movie, most of the Rebels had been shot down or otherwise put out of action. I'm sorry if this fact on film does not suit you.

So in your view, "dealing with the threat" means allowing the Rebels to take a shot at a known fatal vulnerability of the Death Star and counting on your ECM to make the shot impossible, instead of keeping the Rebels away from it entirely. For that matter, don't have anyone covering the approach to the trench from above, so that a freighter can slip through your defenses and provide cover fire for the attacking fighters.

You keep blathering on that same point over and over and over and over again and really do not offer anything more than "it shouldn't have happened" as an argument when all is boiled down. Tarkin had fighters and AA up and from what we saw in the fucking movie the Rebel attack force had been whittled down to their last pilot. This does not lend credence to the charge that the defensive measures were inadequate. And if this seems repetitious, its because your entire argument is repetitious.

All this "if Luke wasn't there" excuse-making is ridiculous.

Nowhere near as ridiculous as the argument you keep trying to put up.

Which argument would that be? The one where I think a commander shouldn't let a desparate enemy take a shot at his one weakness or the one where I think bad luck doesn't excuse taking inadequate precautions?

To reiterate yet again: You keep blathering on that same point over and over and over and over again and really do not offer anything more than "it shouldn't have happened" as an argument when all is boiled down. Tarkin had fighters and AA up and from what we saw in the fucking movie the Rebel attack force had been whittled down to their last pilot. This does not lend credence to the charge that the defensive measures were inadequate.

Do you even understand that the Rebel action was an act of desperation? They literally had no other option: either make a last-ditch stand in the hopes of blowing up the Death Star or simply wait for annihilation. And you can keep screaming "Dodonna though it was possible" as much as you like: Napoleon thought he'd win at Waterloo. Few commanders will go into a battle thinking they're going to lose and almost none of them, even if they do think they're going to lose, are going to actually say "we're fucked" to the troops.

Well, you sure got me there.

Well, that was an utterly useless non-answer.

RedImperator wrote:It's not as if nobody thought the port could be hit--Dodonna did, and even if you write off his assessment as pure desparation, Bast obviously thought the same thing.

Oh wait. I acknowledged exactly that, in the very first post I made in response to you. Perhaps you didn't mean that to be taken literally either?

Oh wait --you're still full of bullshit. Really, if we're going to be citing "what people thought" as evidence of anything, what about the pilots who thought the attack was impossible in the first place? The guys who, you know, have more cockpit time than Dodonna? An opinion backed up by the fact that one of their pilots actually missed the port despite having instrument-sighting on the target.

Saying Tarkin should be excused for his incompetence because of his bad luck is like saying E.J. Smith should be excused for losing Titanic because it was bad luck they sideswiped the first iceberg they saw.

A Red Herring as well as a False Analogy Fallacy —and one ignorant of the facts of the Titanic disaster, one of which being that Capt. Smith had actually steered far enough south to avoid where ice fields were usually found in that time of year.

And of course, Smith had no way of knowing a huge ice field was directly in his path, right? It's not like he had ice warnings or anything, right?

Actually, no he didn't. There were no set procedures in that day for ensuring that the ship's captain was kept updated on wireless messages received and the two wireless operators were not ship's crew but employees of the Marconi Wireless Co. It was not even required to maintain 24-hour wireless watch in that time, which was why Jack Phillips didn't pass along the last ice warnings to the bridge before getting through his stack of private transmissions.

Titanic and the Death Star and the actions of their respective commanders are perfectly analogous.

No they aren't actually.

Both vessels were technological marvels considered immune to traditional threats. Both vessels had a weakness--the Death Star had an exhaust port leading directly to its reactor, and Titanic had a rudder incapable of steering it out of the way of an obstacle without several minutes' warning. Both commanders were aware of, or should have been aware of, their weaknesses. Both commanders took inadequate precautionary measures they assumed were enough. Both ignored warnings that those measures might be inadequate. Both were capable of taking actions which would have prevented disaster--Smith could have slowed down, Tarkin could have launched more fighters. And in the end, both men were responsible for entirely preventable disasters.

History says you're full of shit regarding the Titanic. Capt. Smith had steered a course to avoid ice fields where they were usually to be found in that time of year; the winter of 1912 was an unseasonably cold one and there was no International Ice Patrol then. And as for Tarkin, to reiterate yet again: You keep blathering on that same point over and over and over and over again and really do not offer anything more than "it shouldn't have happened" as an argument when all is boiled down. Tarkin had fighters and AA up and from what we saw in the fucking movie the Rebel attack force had been whittled down to their last pilot. This does not lend credence to the charge that the defensive measures were inadequate.

That would be a pretty devestating rebuttal if I had argued that Tarkin needed to launch thousands of fighters. Unfortunately, what I actually said was that a hundred, a small fraction of Tarkin's available force, could have ensured the job was finished, and even that is a ludacrously optimistic estimation of the Rebels' chances. Another dozen realistically would have done it. I only mentioned the thousands to illustrate how little it would have cost him to do so compared to the forces he had on hand, and to preempt any argument that the Death Star was already defending itself as vigorously as possible (an argument I've heard in previous threads on this subject, though never, if I recall correctly, from you).

And if the statement were meant to be taken literally, that might have been a pretty devestating counter-rebuttal. As it stands, however, it does not prove an argument one way or the other nor does it lend credence to your position that Tarkin was simply ignoring the threat out of arrogance or stupidity or whatever. Nor that the Rebel attack succeeded by anything other than pure blind luck since in the actual movie, it was about to fail.

You're right, he wasn't ignoring the threat. I overstated my case when I accused him of that. However, the fundamental point remains: Tarkin's defense was inadequate. Luke never should have been in position to take that shot to begin with. The fact it was bad luck that ultimately cost him his command is immaterial, not when he had the resources at his disposal to make luck completely irrevelant. Since when are military commanders not responsible for taking precautions to cover unforseen eventualities?

Since you repeat yourself yet again: You keep blathering on that same point over and over and over and over again and really do not offer anything more than "it shouldn't have happened" as an argument when all is boiled down. Tarkin had fighters and AA up and from what we saw in the fucking movie the Rebel attack force had been whittled down to their last pilot. This does not lend credence to the charge that the defensive measures were inadequate.

Counciler wrote:

Jade Falcon wrote:
I remember the Imperial Sourcebook for the WEG SW RPG's tried to elaborate on the role of a Grand Moff.

A Moff was a sector governor with a fixed territory and the assets to go with it.

A Grand Moff however did not have a fixed territory and was also regarded as having a 'priority sector' role which meant he could go practically anywhere and requisition men and materials temporarily from Sector Moffs. Basically this could be a troubleshooter, albeit sometimes one on a grand scale.

I'm aware that the canon status of RPG material is somewhat shakey, but it might be true.

So a Grand Moff is like a traveling Moff? Like a Moff that can get resources from a system to use IN that system? But he does not actually get a sector of his own. Am I reading this right? Or did I miss the idea completely?

A Grand Moff overseas an oversector, which is compromise of a number of sectors known for being troublespots. Consult Publis' articles for greater detail.

Isolder74 wrote:

Death from the Sea wrote:Why didn't they do it like in that cartoon "how Star Wars should have ended"???? and just shoot the planet and then the moon?

Partly because a gas giant will mostly likely not explode when hit. Why waste the power? Remember this Death needed an hour to charge the Superlaser. an hour rebels could us to escape or launch further attacks on the Death Star.

The power of the DS blast is sufficient to overcome the GBE of a gas giant.

Ender wrote:

Isolder74 wrote:

Death from the Sea wrote:Why didn't they do it like in that cartoon "how Star Wars should have ended"???? and just shoot the planet and then the moon?

Partly because a gas giant will mostly likely not explode when hit. Why waste the power? Remember this Death needed an hour to charge the Superlaser. an hour rebels could us to escape or launch further attacks on the Death Star.

The power of the DS blast is sufficient to overcome the GBE of a gas giant.

I think he means that the DS blast's energy won't cause a gas giant to go off like a firecracker, but will rather cause it to (relatively) lazily expand and never be able to pull itself back together again, as Mad pointed out earlier in this thread, IIRC.

Based on our seeing that an ordinary pilot in fact did miss. I'm sorry if the movie evidence just doesn't suit you.

One ordinary pilot missed. We can't infer that all of them would have from a single incident. As RedImperator pointed out, both Bast and Dodonna felt that it was possible for an non-Force user to make that shot.

Some non-Force using pilots have been shown to be canonically equal to or superior to some Force-users in combat (i.e. Jagged Fel versus Jaina and Zekk), so it's not just whistling Dixie to make the assumption that another pilot could have made the shot.

Bladed_Crescent wrote:

Based on our seeing that an ordinary pilot in fact did miss. I'm sorry if the movie evidence just doesn't suit you.

One ordinary pilot missed. We can't infer that all of them would have from a single incident. As RedImperator pointed out, both Bast and Dodonna felt that it was possible for an non-Force user to make that shot.

Some non-Force using pilots have been shown to be canonically equal to or superior to some Force-users in combat (i.e. Jagged Fel versus Jaina and Zekk), so it's not just whistling Dixie to make the assumption that another pilot could have made the shot.

I think Dodonna hoped that a normal pilot could hit it. Red Leader had a good run, running his targeting computer most the way, had 'tone' and everything and the torpedo impacted just outside the surface.

Since they planned on using the targeting computer and their approach vector was so limited, exactly what other factor do you need to see that they 'the normal pilots' wouldn't be able to make the shot?

This does not lend credence to the charge that the defensive measures were inadequate.

Does the fact that there is no more Death Star anymore show that the defenses were inadequate? Force user or not, if there were more TIEs in the area, there very well may not be a YAVIN IV.... instead of the Death Star.

On a second note... I would suggest that Tarkin also could have warped in with a small frigate or cruiser (That he spuuosedly had tagging along, waiting on the sidelines looking for escaping transports) Some more AA fire from a different direction very well may have helped.

Also, if you look at it this way: I'm not sure if Luke just hit the firing button at the right time, or if he 'Force guided' the torpedoes into the vent. But if its the former, than ANY pilot [theorectically] can hit that mark.

But then again... Luke didnt learn how to Force manipulate objects until Episode 5: ESB.... even then he had troubles doing so. So I guess he just happened to get it right that one shot.

Knife wrote: I think Dodonna hoped that a normal pilot could hit it. Red Leader had a good run, running his targeting computer most the way, had 'tone' and everything and the torpedo impacted just outside the surface.
Since they planned on using the targeting computer and their approach vector was so limited, exactly what other factor do you need to see that they 'the normal pilots' wouldn't be able to make the shot?

A hundred or so other pilots also failing to make the shot would be a good start.
Nobody said the shot would be easy leave alone a guaranteed hit. You're arguing it was impossible based on one failed attempt.
Dodonna (and Luke) thought it was doable. Let's assume Dodonna was desperate and Luke naive. Why was Bast worried? Extreme paranoia?
If the Rebels didn't think there was at least a small chance for the plan to work, they'd have evacuated.

Knife wrote:Since they planned on using the targeting computer and their approach vector was so limited, exactly what other factor do you need to see that they 'the normal pilots' wouldn't be able to make the shot?

Batman wrote:A hundred or so other pilots also failing to make the shot would be a good start.
Nobody said the shot would be easy leave alone a guaranteed hit. You're arguing it was impossible based on one failed attempt.

Batman took the words right out of my mouth... or keyboard, as the case may be. Red Leader failed. We didn't get a chance to see if any of the other pilots would have, so based on one example, it's rather jumping the gun to say that all non-Force users would have failed the shot.

The Force indicated to Luke the best time to fire, yes? In this instance, how would that be different than a more experienced pilot's guess or hunch?

It was a jamming-heavy environment. What if one of the Rebels had held onto their fire just a little longer to ensure an accurate lock? Isn't it possible/likely that the result would have been the same? We can't know, true, but the fact remains that unless you want to dismiss statements from two military strategists on both sides, that it was considered a possibility. If Dodonna was just giving his own men a pep talk, where were the evacuation transports? He couldn't have been that arrogant.

(I think they should have anyways, but that's another thread.)

Counciler wrote:Also, if you look at it this way: I'm not sure if Luke just hit the firing button at the right time, or if he 'Force guided' the torpedoes into the vent. But if its the former, than ANY pilot [theorectically] can hit that mark.

Indeed; in ANH Luke was barely trained, with no abilities to manipulate objects; certainly not in the hectic environment of fighter combat with heavily accelerating warheads on a pinpoint turn. It was timing that mattered in this instance, I believe.

As shown in the pod race in TPM and elsewhere, non-Force users (whether of a different species or not) can match or exceed an untrained (and sometimes a trained) Force user's reflexes and sense of timing.

I think nit-picking how impossible the shot was is generally missing the point. Let's go over it:

1. The pilots, when they were told what they had to do, immediately started bitching.

2. Wedge specifically said "that's impossible, even for a computer". Luke offered up a lame analogy to prove that it wasn't, but it's clearly nowhere close to relevant.

3. Red Leader, an extremely experienced pilot, achieved a lock, fired, and missed. By a significant margin given his target, mind you:



4. Obi-Wan exhorted Luke to use the Force to make the shot. That's a pretty clear message that using the targeting computer was not likely to succeed.

5. The flip side, which people often forget about- Luke's strength in the Force not only assisted him in making the shot- it also saved his life against Darth Vader- at least long enough for Han Solo to save him. Hence why Vader said "the Force is strong in this one" when trying to kill him in the trench. Vader killed every other target of his in much quicker time. Luke must've been innately maneuvering his fighter to barely stay out of Vader's sights (we can see this in the movie).

If Dodonna was just giving his own men a pep talk, where were the evacuation transports? He couldn't have been that arrogant.

No time. The Death Star was already on its way when Leia arrived. If there were transports ready, no way there was enough for everyone, not on that short notice. Yavin was a much more established base than Hoth.

As shown in the pod race in TPM and elsewhere, non-Force users (whether of a different species or not) can match or exceed an untrained (and sometimes a trained) Force user's reflexes and sense of timing.

You've forgotten that Luke is not wholly untrained in ANH- he's been at least introduced to the Force by Obi-Wan. In the ANH radio drama, Obi-Wan accelerates his training significantly. I don't have the quote on hand unfortunately.

Probably already covered, but in the movie (Star Wars), some "20" (?) rebel ships are mentioned, but not all are seen onscreen (though more are added in the Special Edition).

Yes, it wasn't just Vader and his two TIE wingmen that were launched, there was another group of TIEs (4 or was it 6?) that we see fly out around the same time and engage Wedge, Biggs, Luke, etc). Were these all Vader's men? Presumably.


As far as X-Wings, no "shields" are mentioned explicitly in the movie that I recall. Only "deflector screens." ("switch deflector screens to double front")

The Millennium Falcon of course has a "deflector shield" (that Han tells Chewie to angle), so most make the connection that this is the same thing and use the general sci fi term "shields" interchangably (which isn't unreasonable).

I could be wrong, but aren't "shields" only used in reference to Imperial Star Destroyers ("shields up!" - Empire Strikes Back, when the Falcon "attacks" the ISD) and the Death Star II ("an energy shield"). The Death Star has a "magnetic field" (that the fighters pass through).

It's been a while since I went through the movie dialouge, but that's what I remember off the top of my head (so if you were going exclusively from onscreen dialouge, you couldn't really prove that TIEs lack "shields" if such a thing is the same as what the X-Wings/Y-Wings have or the larger ships have).

That's where the notion of X-Wings (and presumably Y-Wings as well) having shields comes from. TIE's aren't mentioned, since the TIE pilots say precious little (except an affirmative to Vader's "cover me" and a "look out" warning before they crash upon Han's dramatic entrance).

The notion that TIEs lack shields comes from the EU and seems to be largely a game mechanic (not sure if it appeared in the RPG first or the EU literature).

1. The pilots, when they were told what they had to do, immediately started bitching.

Fair enough.

2. Wedge specifically said "that's impossible, even for a computer". Luke offered up a lame analogy to prove that it wasn't, but it's clearly nowhere close to relevant.

True. But this begs the question of whether Wedge was being literal or figurative. The idea of rushing down a trench, taking fire from fore and aft as you race along to get only a single shot at a target a sixth the size of your own fighter would probably put a damper on anyone's optimism and mental calculations.

. Red Leader, an extremely experienced pilot, achieved a lock, fired, and missed. By a significant margin given his target, mind you:

Truthfully? That does not look anywhere near a "signifcant margin". If he'd missed cleanly, I would certainly agree, but even in that screen cap, the torpedo is almost in the main tube. For a shot taken at extreme range - he fired as soon as he had the lock - that's not terribly bad. At least in my own opinion.

No time. The Death Star was already on its way when Leia arrived. If there were transports ready, no way there was enough for everyone, not on that short notice. Yavin was a much more established base than Hoth.

All right, fair enough.

4. Obi-Wan exhorted Luke to use the Force to make the shot. That's a pretty clear message that using the targeting computer was not likely to succeed.

Fair enough; though "not likely" and "impossible" are two separate things, which is more or less what I've arguing for - the entire operation was seen as a Forlorn Hope. I've only been arguing that just because a single non-Force user missed meant does not mean that all of them would be useless.

5. The flip side, which people often forget about- Luke's strength in the Force not only assisted him in making the shot- it also saved his life against Darth Vader- at least long enough for Han Solo to save him. Hence why Vader said "the Force is strong in this one" when trying to kill him in the trench. Vader killed every other target of his in much quicker time. Luke must've been innately maneuvering his fighter to barely stay out of Vader's sights (we can see this in the movie).

Fair enough, although I thought that had been ascribed to jamming, as other fighters are seen to jink exactly the same way on TIE targeting sensors when in reality they aren't doing anything of the sort.

Ah; just watched again. Luke was jinking. The Force acts as a danger sense for pilots, so I'll concede the point. But I'd imagine any pilot with a trio of hostiles on his tail would do the same nonetheless. To what effectiveness is an open question.

I would like to reiterate though, that non-Force pilots have gone toe to toe with Force users before - Corran vs. Tycho in I, Jedi, the aforementioned Jagged vs. Jaina/Zekk in The Swarm War - or even Vader not sensing Han in ANH - so there is evidence that "Force user" is not equal to "instant win".

Vympel wrote:You've forgotten that Luke is not wholly untrained in ANH- he's been at least introduced to the Force by Obi-Wan. In the ANH radio drama, Obi-Wan accelerates his training significantly. I don't have the quote on hand unfortunately.

me wrote:Indeed; in ANH Luke was barely trained, with no abilities to manipulate objects; certainly not in the hectic environment of fighter combat with heavily accelerating warheads on a pinpoint turn.

Not really, but all of his training took place aboard the Millenium Falcon en route to Alderaan. That's a rather short period of time to become far superior to any non Force-user veteran pilot.

I haven't heard the radio drama - didn't even know of it until I started lurking here - so I can't argue that point. But in it was Luke said to have any capabilities in Force manipulation? Even if he was, I'd think that using such abilities on the torpedoes would have been too difficult for him at that time - in ESB, he has to concentrate for several moments to fetch his lightsaber, only a few meters away.

Note: On watching that scene in ANH again, there were no fighters present until Vader ordered Black Sqaudron to launch. So Tarkin was even more arrogant that previously believed.

Patrick Degan repeatedly wrote:Which means exactly jack and shit considering that Tarkin's countermeasures even as they were had proven largely effective. This is seen in the movie. Argue against it as much as you like.

This countermeasure that was largely effective against the rebel attack... was it really Tarkin's doing? I seem to remember differently: Tarkin didn't order the fighters into the sky; Vader did.

Here's the conversation in ANH between Darth Vader and a generic Imperial officer (GIO) at the start of the Rebel Attack:

GIO: We count 30 rebel ships, Lord Vader, but they're so small they're evading our turbolasers.

Vader: We will have to destroy them ship-to-ship. Get the crews to their fighters.

Then, a few minutes later, at Rebel Base...

Generic Rebel Intel Guy: Squad leaders, we've picked up a new group of signals. Enemy fighters coming your way.

Before this point, there wasn't a TIE fighter to be seen molesting the Rebels.

Now, Patrick, in the face of the fact that Vader definitely ordered fighters into the sky, and only after this order was issued to we actually see TIE fighters in the sky shooting rebels and taking names, what is your reason to suppose that Tarkin ordered even a token number of fighters into the sky and can therefore claim any credit for the effectiveness of this countermeasure?

Patrick Degan wrote:

A stroke of pure luck which wouldn't have mattered in the slightest if Tarkin had put up enough fighters to prevent the Rebels from making the attack run at all.

Which means exactly jack and shit considering that Tarkin's countermeasures even as they were had proven largely effective. This is seen in the movie. Argue against it as much as you like.

Bullshit. His countermeasures allowed two Rebels to take clean shots at his only fatal weakness, the second resulting in the destruction of his battlestation. All the excuses you care to make doesn't change the fact that the Death Star is now a debris field orbiting Yavin and the Rebels lived on to fight another day.

Since when is "we almost stopped a force 1/1000th our size from blowing up our planet-smashing battlestation" any kind of adequate performance?

Which means exactly jack and shit considering that Tarkin's countermeasures even as they were had proven largely effective. This is seen in the movie. Argue against it as much as you like.

Bullshit. His countermeasures allowed two Rebels to take clean shots at his only fatal weakness, the second resulting in the destruction of his battlestation. All the excuses you care to make doesn't change the fact that the Death Star is now a debris field orbiting Yavin and the Rebels lived on to fight another day.

Conceded on that point, but he still didn't put up an adequate defenses. He could have prevented the Rebels from taking a shot at the exhaust port entirely, in which case no fluke of bad luck would have saved the rebellion. Explain to me, if you're in command of a battlestation with only one weakness, why would you let an enemy force get near it when you had the forces at your disposal to prevent it?

Ah, I see that we're expecting perfect performance which actually never happens in real-world combat situations and this is your basis for the charge against Tarkin?

When the target is a six foot wide hole in the ground that can only be approached at low speed from one direction, you outnumber the enemy by at least two orders of magnitude, and if the enemy hits that target the entire battlestation is destroyed? Yes, I do expect perfection, when perfection is defined as "allow no Rebels to take a clean shot at the exhaust port", because it would have been trivial to achieve and the costs of scrambling a slightly larger force to achieve it are miniscule compared to the consequences of failure. Even having three TIEs coming up the trench from the opposite direction, or orbiting above the exhaust port to fire down on the lead fighter as it approached would have been enough to disrupt the shot.

You tell me, genius, how often a large force is scrambled to combat a miniscule-scale threat in the real world, because that doesn't happen either. Tarkin had no reason to deploy more fighters to deal with at most two dozen X-Wings, and the defence he did put up had succeeded in whittling down the Rebel attack literally to their last pilot.

An extra dozen to one hundred fighters is a large force when you have thousands of TIEs in reserve, is it? Why don't you tell me where in real life commanders scramble just enough to repel an attack when it's possible to scramble a large enough force to overwhelm the enemy without expending more than a fraction of their own resources?

And not one iota or jot of that changes the fact the disaster was fully preventable by Tarkin. The Rebels never should have been in position to attempt that shot in the first place, a shot both sides thought was makable, regardless of how remote the chances actually were. So what if it was an unforseeable fluke that Luke was strong in the Force? Are commanders not responsible for preparing for the unexpected anymore?

Which means exactly jack and shit considering that Tarkin's countermeasures even as they were had proven largely effective. This is seen in the movie. Argue against it as much as you like.

Bullshit. His countermeasures allowed two Rebels to take clean shots at his only fatal weakness, the second resulting in the destruction of his battlestation. All the excuses you care to make doesn't change the fact that the Death Star is now a debris field orbiting Yavin and the Rebels lived on to fight another day.

You're the one asserting a non-Force user couldn't have made that shot.

Based on our seeing that an ordinary pilot in fact did miss. I'm sorry if the movie evidence just doesn't suit you.

A single pilot misses by less than the diameter of the port and you conclude it's totally impossible for a normal human to make that shot, even by the same blind luck you assert is what cost Tarkin the battle. You're right, the movie evidence doesn't suit me, and at any rate, it was within Tarkin's power to ensure that the Rebels couldn't take that shot at all.

You keep blathering on that same point over and over and over and over again and really do not offer anything more than "it shouldn't have happened" as an argument when all is boiled down. Tarkin had fighters and AA up and from what we saw in the fucking movie the Rebel attack force had been whittled down to their last pilot. This does not lend credence to the charge that the defensive measures were inadequate.

Bullshit. His countermeasures allowed two Rebels to take clean shots at his only fatal weakness, thr second resulting in the destruction of his battlestation. All the excuses you care to make doesn't change the fact that the Death Star is now a debris field orbiting Yavin and the Rebels lived on to fight another day.

So in your view, "dealing with the threat" means allowing the Rebels to take a shot at a known fatal vulnerability of the Death Star and counting on your ECM to make the shot impossible, instead of keeping the Rebels away from it entirely. For that matter, don't have anyone covering the approach to the trench from above, so that a freighter can slip through your defenses and provide cover fire for the attacking fighters.

You keep blathering on that same point over and over and over and over again and really do not offer anything more than "it shouldn't have happened" as an argument when all is boiled down. Tarkin had fighters and AA up and from what we saw in the fucking movie the Rebel attack force had been whittled down to their last pilot. This does not lend credence to the charge that the defensive measures were inadequate. And if this seems repetitious, its because your entire argument is repetitious.

Bullshit. His countermeasures allowed two Rebels to take clean shots at his only fatal weakness, the second resulting in the destruction of his battlestation. All the excuses you care to make doesn't change the fact that the Death Star is now a debris field orbiting Yavin and the Rebels lived on to fight another day. See, I can copy and paste rebuttals too! My argument is repetitious because you've offered nothing new since your original post, repeating over and over that Tarkin almost prevented a totally preventable disaster, and that should then excuse him from responsibility for actually failing to prevent it.

And concession accepted on the Milennium Falcon point, which you decided not to address in favor of being cute with c&p rebuttals. A freighter somehow managed to slip through the "perfectly adequate" AA and fighter screen and get close enough to the trench to cover Luke. It's too bad Tarkin didn't have fighters doing the same thing, because then neither Red Leader nor Luke could have even taken a shot on the port.

Which argument would that be? The one where I think a commander shouldn't let a desparate enemy take a shot at his one weakness or the one where I think bad luck doesn't excuse taking inadequate precautions?

To reiterate yet again: You keep blathering on that same point over and over and over and over again and really do not offer anything more than "it shouldn't have happened" as an argument when all is boiled down. Tarkin had fighters and AA up and from what we saw in the fucking movie the Rebel attack force had been whittled down to their last pilot. This does not lend credence to the charge that the defensive measures were inadequate.

Bullshit. His countermeasures allowed two Rebels to take clean shots at his only fatal weakness, the second resulting in the destruction of his battlestation. All the excuses you care to make doesn't change the fact that the Death Star is now a debris field orbiting Yavin and the Rebels lived on to fight another day.

Well, you sure got me there.

Well, that was an utterly useless non-answer.

It deserved nothing more, since I conceded in the same post where I initially brought it up that you could write off Dodonna's assessment as desparation. I chose to keep "screaming" about it because you didn't bother contesting it until later.

Oh wait --you're still full of bullshit. Really, if we're going to be citing "what people thought" as evidence of anything, what about the pilots who thought the attack was impossible in the first place? The guys who, you know, have more cockpit time than Dodonna? An opinion backed up by the fact that one of their pilots actually missed the port despite having instrument-sighting on the target.

The fact that Bast was right and they were wrong is a good start. So is the fact that if Red Leader fired his torpedo a half second later, or the torpedo made its turn a meter forward of where it did, Luke's Force abilities would have been entirely irrevelant. And while we're on "if" (since your entire defense of Tarkin has hinged on "if" anyway), if Milennium Falcon had had proton torpedoes of its own, it could have attempted the shot at a much easier angle than the X-wings did, because Tarkin's "adequate" defenses did nothing from prevent it from entering the battle zone.

Actually, no he didn't. There were no set procedures in that day for ensuring that the ship's captain was kept updated on wireless messages received and the two wireless operators were not ship's crew but employees of the Marconi Wireless Co. It was not even required to maintain 24-hour wireless watch in that time, which was why Jack Phillips didn't pass along the last ice warnings to the bridge before getting through his stack of private transmissions.

Absolute bullshit. Some of the ice warnings never made it out of the Marconi room, but many did, and wound up posted on the bridge for both Smith and Smith's officers to see. On the day of the 14th Smith personally recieved two, from Caronia and Baltic, the latter of which was later seen being waved around by Ismay. A third warning from Californian was posted to the bridge after Smith had left for dinner. It's true that the two most important warnings of the day--from Mesaba and the second from Californian--did not reach the bridge thanks to half-assed wireless procedures for which Smith really can't be held responsible, but it's completely false that Smith had no idea there was ice south of where it usually was found at that time of year. His ten mile course change was woefully inadequate. So were the precautions taken by the crew that night, for which Smith, as master of the vessel, is ultimately responsible.

History says you're full of shit regarding the Titanic. Capt. Smith had steered a course to avoid ice fields where they were usually to be found in that time of year; the winter of 1912 was an unseasonably cold one and there was no International Ice Patrol then.

Too bad for Captain Smith (and his passengers and crew) that that course change was inadequate and Titanic's officers damn well did have enough ice warnings in their hands to know that. As for the weather in 1912, the problem was not unseasonable cold, it was unseasonable warmth which caused more bergs to break off the Greenland ice sheet. It's a nitpick, but if you're going to accuse me of being full of shit about Titanic, you could at least get your basic facts straight.

And as for Tarkin, to reiterate yet again: You keep blathering on that same point over and over and over and over again and really do not offer anything more than "it shouldn't have happened" as an argument when all is boiled down. Tarkin had fighters and AA up and from what we saw in the fucking movie the Rebel attack force had been whittled down to their last pilot. This does not lend credence to the charge that the defensive measures were inadequate.

Bullshit. His countermeasures allowed two Rebels to take clean shots at his only fatal weakness, the second resulting in the destruction of his battlestation. All the excuses you care to make doesn't change the fact that the Death Star is now a debris field orbiting Yavin and the Rebels lived on to fight another day.

Since you repeat yourself yet again: You keep blathering on that same point over and over and over and over again and really do not offer anything more than "it shouldn't have happened" as an argument when all is boiled down. Tarkin had fighters and AA up and from what we saw in the fucking movie the Rebel attack force had been whittled down to their last pilot. This does not lend credence to the charge that the defensive measures were inadequate.

Bullshit. His countermeasures allowed two Rebels to take clean shots at his only fatal weakness, the second resulting in the destruction of his battlestation. All the excuses you care to make doesn't change the fact that the Death Star is now a debris field orbiting Yavin and the Rebels lived on to fight another day. And since we're both in the habit of repeating ourselves in this debate, I'll ask again: since when are military commanders not responsible for taking precautions to cover unforseen eventualities?

Since when did the Force merely give Luke the right "time" to press his firing trigger? Wouldn't targeting also be a matter of pointing the torpedo launchers (since they're fuselage-fixed. Plus, since the jamming precluded guidance, it possibly means aiming the entire X-Wing) at the exhaust port? Depending on the range, there's quite a small margin of error in the angle of the fighter's heading when the torpedoes are fired.

Vympel also pointed out that the Force allowed Luke to actively evade the targeting of Vader and his wingmen long enough. If he wasn't Force sensitive, he would not simply have missed the port, he wouldn't even be alive to take the shot.

Also, nobody pointed out that the other X-Wings and Y-Wings were unable to make evasive maneuvers because the targeting computer required them to fly straight and level. Luke's method of aiming, however, would have allowed him to continue evading enemy fire if there had still been TIEs on his tail.

To top it off, Han saved him; if Han wasn't there, he'd be toast anyway. Arguably, Han's timing is the will of the Force at work saving Luke's ass, but never mind that.



With that out of the way, I guess it's worth noting that while Luke was guarded and guided by the Force, the fact that Red Leader managed to get off a shot still demonstrates inadequacy and incompetence on the Imperial side, though.

Cykeisme wrote:To top it off, Han saved him; if Han wasn't there, he'd be toast anyway. Arguably, Han's timing is the will of the Force at work saving Luke's ass, but never mind that.

Arguably my ass. There's no evidence to correlate Han's change of heart with the Force. He really is just a big softie, man.

And Han's inclusion into the argument only makes Tarkin's defense look worse. He was able to fly right to the objective without experiencing any restistance. Even if Vader fries Luke, Han still has the jump on him and a shot at the exhaust port.

Even without Luke, the fact of the matter is this: If there's only a 0.000001% chance of hitting the port, and the station is destroyed, THE STATION IS STILL DESTROYED.

Tarkin had the ability to remove any doubt whatsoever, to completely undoubtedly 100% annihilate the Rebel fleet with exactly zero effort and danger to his mission, and he failed.

I'd like to point out, that according to the novel there were two additional runs on the exhaust-port - which all failed.

All ordinary pilots failed.

The only Force-user able to pull it off would have been killed by Vader if not for Han Solo.

Certainly Tarkin could not have expected a Force-user among the rebels. "The Jedi are extint" after all.

Batman wrote: A hundred or so other pilots also failing to make the shot would be a good start.

Why? It's computer targeted and with the hellashish turn Lukes missile does at the shaft; it's obviously guided too? So if a computer aimes it and a computer guides it and it still misses, what makes you think that one hundred more computers just like it will make a difference?

Is Redleader's computer broken? His missiles guidence corrupted? Luke's just happened to be okey dokey? What?

Nobody said the shot would be easy leave alone a guaranteed hit. You're arguing it was impossible based on one failed attempt.

Damn skippy I am. It was a good run, Redleader had as much time as he needed, his computer locked on target, the pilot didn't report and disfunction in the weapon and it still fucking missed the target.

On pretty much a perfect run, if you miss, then what makes you think any others will produce a better result; unless you're relying on luck or in this case 'The Force'.

Dodonna (and Luke) thought it was doable. Let's assume Dodonna was desperate and Luke naive. Why was Bast worried? Extreme paranoia?
If the Rebels didn't think there was at least a small chance for the plan to work, they'd have evacuated.

I think this bit is getting overplayed here. Dodanna was desperate, the DS was already on it's way. Yavin was a major base and they couldn't get the ships and personel out in time. Sure the fighters could have launched and escaped but that would have left an aweful lot of people still there.

Luke was being cocky, come on....Wamprats?

And Bast was hardly paranoid nor waving his arms around frantically. He reported a possible threat after analyzing the rebel attack. That's it. I don't recall him being overly worried about it rather than reporting the fact and suggesting that the Moff's shuttle be ready. That's it, hardly 'worried'.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Arguably my ass. There's no evidence to correlate Han's change of heart with the Force. He really is just a big softie, man.

Haha you're right about that, and I didn't mean it that way.
It's more of a philosophical point.. the Force does more than give people precognition and telekinesis, a person who's strong in the Force is also "charmed", as though fate favors him. Precog and TK are great tools in combat, but people strong in the Force are pivotal, steering the fate of the galaxy. Shatterpoints and all that. A subject for a dedicated thread sometimes, perhaps.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:And Han's inclusion into the argument only makes Tarkin's defense look worse. He was able to fly right to the objective without experiencing any restistance. Even if Vader fries Luke, Han still has the jump on him and a shot at the exhaust port.

Excellent point, yow.

How did Han get there, anyway? Surely the Death Star's sensors must have picked him up. Was Tarkin (and his underlings') arrogance so great that they didn't even bother to inform Vader and Black Squadron of the Falcon's approach? Another nail in the Grand Moff's coffin, I guess.

Cykeisme wrote:Since when did the Force merely give Luke the right "time" to press his firing trigger? Wouldn't targeting also be a matter of pointing the torpedo launchers (since they're fuselage-fixed. Plus, since the jamming precluded guidance, it possibly means aiming the entire X-Wing) at the exhaust port? Depending on the range, there's quite a small margin of error in the angle of the fighter's heading when the torpedoes are fired.

On a warhead capable of performing abrupt 90-degree turns, I'm not sure how detrimental the direction the launcher is pointing is.

In that vein, if the jamming precluded guidance, what was the point of the targeting computer at all? How would the torpedos have done anything but fly straight over the vent, if they couldn't be guided? I guess they could have been preprogrammed.... Of course, the jamming was likely responsible for the miss, so we're back full circle.

Luke's method of aiming, however, would have allowed him to continue evading enemy fire if there had still been TIEs on his tail.

No, his method of aiming only kept him alive for a greater period of time than the other pilots; if Han hadn't been there - a fault of Tarkin's - he would have died just the same - Vader was about to shoot him down.

With that out of the way, I guess it's worth noting that while Luke was guarded and guided by the Force, the fact that Red Leader managed to get off a shot still demonstrates inadequacy and incompetence on the Imperial side, though.

Agreed.

FTeik wrote:I'd like to point out, that according to the novel there were two additional runs on the exhaust-port - which all failed.

All ordinary pilots failed.

My question is whether or not that's overridden by the film, since after Gold Leader and his wingmen went down, Red Leader and his companions tried; upon Red Leader's failure, he ordered Luke to make the next attack. There wasn't time for any other runs.

If not, then I'll agree that Luke's sensitivity was a definite assest. I don't think I've argued otherwise, just that it was possible for a non-Force user (who can and have flown as equals against Force users) to make the shot exists. With that evidence, I'll concede that it's certainly far harder for a non-sensitive to accomplish the same task as Luke.

Certainly Tarkin could not have expected a Force-user among the rebels. "The Jedi are extint" after all.

It doesn't matter whether he expected a Jedi or not; the Rebels made three - five if the novel does in fact count - attacks on the same point. They obviously thought they were going to accomplish something, as did Tarkin's own advisor. It doesn't matter if they were getting shot down in droves (which they were). All it would take is for someone - anyone - to get lucky and you've suddenly lost a battlestation the size of a moon to an attacker one-millionth its size.

Which is exactly what happened.

As others have pointed out, it would have cost Tarkin nothing whatsoever to dispatch another few squadrons.

Knife wrote:Why? It's computer targeted and with the hellashish turn Lukes missile does at the shaft; it's obviously guided too? So if a computer aimes it and a computer guides it and it still misses, what makes you think that one hundred more computers just like it will make a difference?

Is Redleader's computer broken? His missiles guidence corrupted? Luke's just happened to be okey dokey? What?

Wouldn't corrupted guidance be implicit in a jamming-heavy environment?Therefore, shouldn't the closer he gets to the shaft make it easier for his own sensors to cut through the jamming and establish a cleaner lock, refine the first solution he got from his TC? Red Leader fired as soon as he had the chance. (With Vader and his cohorts on his tail, I can't blame him though.)

....Redleader had as much time as he needed....

Not with Vader on his tail; he fired as soon as he could and broke off just as quickly. Again, understandable events.

That's it, hardly 'worried'.

He was so not worried about the attack that he didn't get into his own shuttle and escape, not risking being executed for cowardice in the face of the enemy in case the attack he wasn't worried about didn't succeed.

...now I've gone crosseyed. And feel a little like Jack Sparrow.

Counciler wrote:

Jade Falcon wrote:
I remember the Imperial Sourcebook for the WEG SW RPG's tried to elaborate on the role of a Grand Moff.

A Moff was a sector governor with a fixed territory and the assets to go with it.

A Grand Moff however did not have a fixed territory and was also regarded as having a 'priority sector' role which meant he could go practically anywhere and requisition men and materials temporarily from Sector Moffs. Basically this could be a troubleshooter, albeit sometimes one on a grand scale.

I'm aware that the canon status of RPG material is somewhat shakey, but it might be true.

So a Grand Moff is like a traveling Moff? Like a Moff that can get resources from a system to use IN that system? But he does not actually get a sector of his own. Am I reading this right? Or did I miss the idea completely?

Moffs need not command Sectors although many do, and not all Sector Governors are Moffs. It is in fact the Gobernatorial Office that wields the power Moffs hold. "Moff" is an honorific title as well as a rank. Grand Moffs fequently run regions and oversectors and often have several Moff Governors/Sector Governors under their jurisdiction.

Patrick Degan wrote:And that rebuttal might carry weight had it not been for the fact that TIE fighters appear on scene before Darth Vader launched with his wingmen. Which means Tarkin had actually launched fighters to deal with the threat. Which means more were on standby. Which means Tarkin was not ignoring the threat.

Sorry to jump into the middle of a debate, but despite the fact that TIEs were launched before Vader actually joined the battle, it was in fact Vader, not Tarkin, who authorized their launch.

Imperial Officer I Don't Know the Name Of wrote:We count thirty Rebel ships Lord Vader, but they're so small they are evading our turbolasers!

Vader wrote: We'll have to destroy them ship to ship. Get the crews to their fighters.

No TIEs are launched until Vader issues this order.

Then, well after the main squadron of TIEs is launched, Vader approaches his wingmen and declares:

Vader wrote:Several fighters have have broken off from the main group, come with me.

Vader authorized the launch of all the TIEs present at Yavin. Tarkin AFAWK had nothing to do with it.

Knife wrote:

Batman wrote: A hundred or so other pilots also failing to make the shot would be a good start.

Why? It's computer targeted and with the hellashish turn Lukes missile does at the shaft; it's obviously guided too? So if a computer aimes it and a computer guides it and it still misses, what makes you think that one hundred more computers just like it will make a difference?

This is a trick question, right?
And kindly note that the actual firing was done by the pilot.

Is Redleader's computer broken? His missiles guidence corrupted? Luke's just happened to be okey dokey? What?

Erm-Luke didn't USE his targeting computer. That little fact actually got the people back on Yavin IV quite upset.

Nobody said the shot would be easy leave alone a guaranteed hit. You're arguing it was impossible based on one failed attempt.

Damn skippy I am. It was a good run, Redleader had as much time as he needed, his computer locked on target, the pilot didn't report and disfunction in the weapon and it still fucking missed the target.
On pretty much a perfect run, if you miss, then what makes you think any others will produce a better result; unless you're relying on luck or in this case 'The Force'.

It's called 'statistics'. Just because you have a 97% chance of achieving something doens't mean you WILL.
Conversely, just because you DON't achieve said something doesn't mean you CAN'T.
Nobody denied the Rebels chances of success were slim. They were NOT inexistant however.

Bladed wrote:Wouldn't corrupted guidance be implicit in a jamming-heavy environment?Therefore, shouldn't the closer he gets to the shaft make it easier for his own sensors to cut through the jamming and establish a cleaner lock, refine the first solution he got from his TC? Red Leader fired as soon as he had the chance. (With Vader and his cohorts on his tail, I can't blame him though.)

Redleader had a lock, just as Luke did, so at that point they are in parity. Now whether or not someone jammed Redleader's guidence on the missile and for some reason not Luke's; is an interesting question. However, let's say that did happen, why didn't the Imps try to jam the missile on it's 80km journey down the shaft?

Not with Vader on his tail; he fired as soon as he could and broke off just as quickly. Again, understandable events.

He fired when he had a computer lock. While I'm sure he felt the presure from Vader behind him, he still waited until his targeting computer locked on target and then fired.

Bats wrote:This is a trick question, right?
And kindly note that the actual firing was done by the pilot.

And? If the missile was guided, and had a lock with a targeting computer giving it it's data, once they have a solution (and presumably updating the solution) what does that matter?

Your saying that the missile had to be fired exactly on cue with the targeting computer, or more to the fact as one specific spot relative to the DS trench? Any hesitation after the 'tone' or 'Force nudge' and the missile would miss?

Erm-Luke didn't USE his targeting computer. That little fact actually got the people back on Yavin IV quite upset.

Correct, he turned off his targeting computer. So, how did the torpedo make that nasty turn? Internal guidence, preprogramed or did Luke Force push it or was the Force working in mysterous ways?

It's called 'statistics'. Just because you have a 97% chance of achieving something doens't mean you WILL.
Conversely, just because you DON't achieve said something doesn't mean you CAN'T.
Nobody denied the Rebels chances of success were slim. They were NOT inexistant however.

Funny you should bring up statistics; three made the run, two didn't make it and one did- using the Force. Out of non-Force using pilots; 0% made the shot. If you take the data of the other four offscreen runs to heart, then it makes it worse.

Out of the imformation we have, it was an impossible shot for an ordinary pilot; Dodanna's hopes aside. With out Luke Skywalker, it is highly doubtfull if not right out impossilbe that the rebels could have taken out the DS, based on the three runs we see at Yavin (and made worse by the four off camera trys).

That is, if you want to bring statistics into it.