StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Vympel wrote:Fixed.

XF-85 Goblin; intended as a point-defense parasite interceptor for the B-36.

Vympel wrote:Pretty much, though the TIE Fighter has greater acceleration than the X-Wing.

So did the A6M over the F4U.

The only time the F4U was faster was in a dive due to it's mass.

phongn wrote:Those are all certainly fine choices for analogies (I think I've used some of them in the past), though I would have chosen an F4F for the X-Wing. Also, jeez, those are big pics for inlining.

Yeah, sorry about that.

I don't see the utility of such analogies, to be honest. TIEs and Xwings are comparable, with the Xwing being more independent and the TIE being more focused. All the WEG shit in the world isn't going to convince me about absurd shit like Bwings having some secret stash of torps, or Ywings being some kind of ground attack fighter. Analogies to terrestrial craft make such pigeonholing seem more attractive than it should be.

I don't really have a problem with the X-wing being superior to the TIE, since it always seemed to me that neglect and disregard for the fighter corps was a big weakness of the Imperial military.

Tarkin doesn't launch fighters in defense of the Death Star. When the Rebels go to run the blockade of Hoth, we don't see any fighters in evidence. During the battle of Endor, the Imperials squander their fighters by throwing them at the Rebel fleet unsupported. Time and time again it's demonstrated that Imperial commanders just don't consider fighters to be very important.

On the other hand, the Rebels lack the capital ship resources of the Empire, and so they seem to place more importance upon their fighters. And as it turns out (thanks to Lucas wanting individual heroes to determine the outcome of everything) fighters were the deciding factor in the Yavin and Endor battles.

I think extending Tarkin's idiocy to the entire galaxy-spanning starfighter arm is a bit of a stretch. Their pilots are good - most rebel pilots are Imperial-trained - and their ships are direct descendants from clonewars top-of-the-line.

I agree that the Xwing and it's ilk clearly fit the hit-and-run style of terrorism the rebels use. They'd have no use for hyperdrive-less fighters, even if they had access to them.

The idea of sending fighters in first against the Rebel fleet at Endor was merely a product of Sidious' borderline insane arrogance. Even so, the unsupported Imperial fighters a big enough of a threat to everything, including the Rebel capital ships (Lando ordered the Alliance fighter groups to draw fire away from the cruisers).
If anything, this battle showed that the Imperial fighters are capable!

Also, even without capship support, we still see numerous Alliance fighters being shot down. If anything, the Endor ground battle shows that the imaginary ethereal in-universe documentary camera prefers to show us more Imperial deaths compared to friendly deaths (we see few Ewoks or commandos getting blasted). I think it would not be presumptious to assume the space battle shows the same bias.

X-Wings have proton torpedoes and hyperdrives. This is good. Pretty much everything else is WEG at work.

Cykeisme wrote: Also, even without capship support, we still see numerous Alliance fighters being shot down. If anything, the Endor ground battle shows that the imaginary ethereal in-universe documentary camera prefers to show us more Imperial deaths compared to friendly deaths (we see few Ewoks or commandos getting blasted).

It's strange, that. Of course, they have no problem showing us Commando corpses (four on the screen at one time when Chewie's AT-ST comes up to the bunker, another dead elsewhere earlier in the battle). Which is almost half their strength, actually (there were 11 commandos at the beginning of the battle).

Vympel wrote:It's strange, that. Of course, they have no problem showing us Commando corpses (four on the screen at one time when Chewie's AT-ST comes up to the bunker, another dead elsewhere earlier in the battle). Which is almost half their strength, actually (there were 11 commandos at the beginning of the battle).

They showed commando corpses? Damn, I have never seen that. In all my viewings of ROTJ, I always wondered what those commandoes were doing, because they seemed to pretty much disappear (except for a few trading fire around the bunker). Even when they get the Imperials out with the AT-ST ruse, it seems that it's just the Main Heroes and Ewoks around (although some had to survive to toss Han that bomb inside the bunker).

We see one of them running away with Han. Look at when Han tells Chewie to "get down here, she's wounded!"

Ah hell, I've got the image on imageshack already:

There's the first dead guy (the Starfleet Trooper has taken his rifle, or is alternately using a DLT-20A):

Link

And the other four:

Link

Remarkably eloquent demonstration of character shield technology, really. Every Rebel Commando defending the bunker is shot dead except Han and Leia.

Vympel wrote:Remarkably eloquent demonstration of character shield technology, really. Every Rebel Commando defending the bunker is shot dead except Han and Leia.

Han, Leia and the droids were hogging all the good cover for themselves. Those commandoes on the sides of the bunker were doomed the moment an Imperial trooper got the bright idea to flank them.

Some Heroes of the Rebellion they were. They survived by taking the best position, while letting everyone else get blown away.

RogueIce wrote:Some Heroes of the Rebellion they were. They survived by taking the best position, while letting everyone else get blown away.

Yeah, what's your point?

Something to keep in mind - the TIE fighter is portrayed as weaker but faster than an X-Wing. The more advanced TIE interceptor, however, is meant to be faster AND at least as strong offensively as an X-wing - it's an overall superior fighter.

Stark wrote:I think extending Tarkin's idiocy to the entire galaxy-spanning starfighter arm is a bit of a stretch.

The idiocy at Yavin, the oversight of not already having a screen of fighters in place over Hoth by the time the Rebels started to flee, and the sheer irresponsibility of throwing the fighters away at Endor. Seriously, name a time in the OT that Imperial fighters were used well.

I mean they throw all their fighters at the Rebel fleet unsupported, and it's a tough fight for a little while. But eventually it passes, with the Imperial fighters presumably near-annhilated, since they're never again a signifigant factor in the battle.

Rebel fighters torpedo the Imperial flagship, with one going out of control and smashing into the bridge, all without a TIE in sight. The Death Star shield fails, and the defense offered by Imperial fighters consists of having a mere two or three fighters lamely chase the Rebels in. No fighter screens for the good guys to punch through, no nothing.

It must sound like grasping when all observed battles show Imperial starfighters being employed poorly, particularly by Tarkin and Palpatine, but surely that's not standard Imperial military doctrine. Surely not..

Anyway, Yavin and Endor show the effectiveness and quality of Imperial fighter designs (and that of their pilots), even if they're employed stupidly.

RogueIce wrote:

Vympel wrote:Remarkably eloquent demonstration of character shield technology, really. Every Rebel Commando defending the bunker is shot dead except Han and Leia.

Han, Leia and the droids were hogging all the good cover for themselves. Those commandoes on the sides of the bunker were doomed the moment an Imperial trooper got the bright idea to flank them.

Some Heroes of the Rebellion they were. They survived by taking the best position, while letting everyone else get blown away.

Hanging out at the door was probably the worst ground in the Endor Battle. Backs to the wall, with only minimal cover. The only advantage is that the only why to flank them is to open the door. Han, Leia, and the droids put themselves into harms way trying to complete their mission. Sounds pretty heroic to me