StarDestroyer.Net BBS

On the talkpage for the Super-class, Charlii evidently thinks canon rules no longer apply and I had to point out that the Holocron set is internal in use only.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I think it also mainly stems from while most people don't like being proven wrong, there are some people who simply cannot accept being wrong.

This is true, however people so stiff-necked that they can't ever accept being wrong seem relatively rare. Darkstar and Wes Hutchings comes to mind.

The WEG-fundies are the type of fans who don't even understand why they like something, and just mindlessly stick up for it on every point.

I like SW because it's entertaining, and because there's an entire universe that I can read about when real life gets boring. I assume the spinoff books are supposed to please people in the same way. I don't like SW because of some stupid, insignificant little trivia numbers that if changed, wouldn't even affect the story. If those numbers lack logic and consistency (and therefore make things look weak, or detract from suspension of disbelief for the people who do notice these things), then by all means, change them.

EU fanwhores don't seem to understand that you can like the WEG sourcebooks for the stories and histories they provide, without giving a shit about the stupid numbers in them. They think that recent retcons which correct these mistakes are somehow destroying their beloved WEG books. Last time I bothered checking the cesspool that is the TFN forums, I saw a bunch of minimalists identifying themselves as "generation WEG." That's just retarded.

Jim Raynor wrote:The WEG-fundies are the type of fans who don't even understand why they like something, and just mindlessly stick up for it on every point.

I like SW because it's entertaining, and because there's an entire universe that I can read about when real life gets boring. I assume the spinoff books are supposed to please people in the same way. I don't like SW because of some stupid, insignificant little trivia numbers that if changed, wouldn't even affect the story. If those numbers lack logic and consistency (and therefore make things look weak, or detract from suspension of disbelief for the people who do notice these things), then by all means, change them.

EU fanwhores don't seem to understand that you can like the WEG sourcebooks for the stories and histories they provide, without giving a shit about the stupid numbers in them. They think that recent retcons which correct these mistakes are somehow destroying their beloved WEG books. Last time I bothered checking the cesspool that is the TFN forums, I saw a bunch of minimalists identifying themselves as "generation WEG." That's just retarded.

When I saw that nonsense, and one of the damn mods whom I shall not name put himself in that group, you can tell that there are a few ostriches around.

Last time I bothered checking the cesspool that is the TFN forums, I saw a bunch of minimalists identifying themselves as "generation WEG."

At least that's better than the retarded derogatory term "maximalist", which some of them use to describe people who don't like WEG sizes. Oh, boohooo, nice comeback. Really.

Jim Raynor wrote:
EU fanwhores don't seem to understand that you can like the WEG sourcebooks for the stories and histories they provide, without giving a shit about the stupid numbers in them.

Well said. I think the WEG books are superior in terms of content--which has everything to do with the style of writing. Even the blatantly propagandistic sourcebooks were cleverly written, so one could appreciate what they were trying to say. Each sourcebook had a creative premise and a clever story, and that's wonderful. The stats? Those were just WEG interpretations for the sake of their game.

If they're changed, then it's for the better. Just because Executor has four thousand more weapons than she did before doesn't mean that the Imperial Sourcebook is ruined, for instance. The very same fans that try to claim they care about the story over the numbers are the ones that are getting upset over them. It doesn't make much sense.

I think this fix was appropriate, well-done, and fitting. It makes a lot of sense and could very feasibly happen, so I like it.

What I find funny is the more the Executor class is expanded in the EU, the worse its defeat in ROTJ becomes. A ship that moutmasses the rest of the Rebels by 100-1, has more weapons then the combined Rebel fleet. Has more starfighters, etc. And it was destroyed.

Alyeska wrote:What I find funny is the more the Executor class is expanded in the EU, the worse its defeat in ROTJ becomes. A ship that moutmasses the rest of the Rebels by 100-1, has more weapons then the combined Rebel fleet. Has more starfighters, etc. And it was destroyed.

Actually the outmassing is misnomer since we have little to no clue of the Mon Cal vessels, as well the thought it having more weapons then Alliance armada is a extraordinary leap of logic...because of the very same reason.

The very fact that Han, Lando...and especially Ackbar didn't go "Oh shit the Executor...we stand no chance!" demonstrates that they had the firepower to at least give a good show if not enough effort to take it down. In fact it was the Death Star that gave any and all concern from Ackbar.

Using known facts on the ISD and their relative comparison to the Rebel fleet, we can come up with some general known facts.

Alyeska wrote:What I find funny is the more the Executor class is expanded in the EU, the worse its defeat in ROTJ becomes. A ship that moutmasses the rest of the Rebels by 100-1, has more weapons then the combined Rebel fleet. Has more starfighters, etc. And it was destroyed.

You find that funny but not that they destroyed TWO Death Stars.

havokeff wrote:

Alyeska wrote:What I find funny is the more the Executor class is expanded in the EU, the worse its defeat in ROTJ becomes. A ship that moutmasses the rest of the Rebels by 100-1, has more weapons then the combined Rebel fleet. Has more starfighters, etc. And it was destroyed.

You find that funny but not that they destroyed TWO Death Stars.

That was an example of over confidence. First time they send a handful of fighters to take on the Rebels. Second time the Emperor micromanaged things to hell. Mind you that does factor into the Executor. Though the Executor doesn't have a starfighter weakness like both Death Stars. So while it might have been under orders to not fire all guns, its shields were dropped depressingly fast.

Alyeska wrote:

havokeff wrote:

Alyeska wrote:What I find funny is the more the Executor class is expanded in the EU, the worse its defeat in ROTJ becomes. A ship that moutmasses the rest of the Rebels by 100-1, has more weapons then the combined Rebel fleet. Has more starfighters, etc. And it was destroyed.

You find that funny but not that they destroyed TWO Death Stars.

That was an example of over confidence. First time they send a handful of fighters to take on the Rebels. Second time the Emperor micromanaged things to hell. Mind you that does factor into the Executor. Though the Executor doesn't have a starfighter weakness like both Death Stars. So while it might have been under orders to not fire all guns, its shields were dropped depressingly fast.

Given Ackbar was demanding all firepower to be concentrated on the ship...how is that bad? So what would be good? It wanked so horrifying huge that a fleet or more then 40+ capital class ships cannot take down a single craft?

In fact it was only the bridge area that had the shields knocked down, even after the orders were given. I think you either are believeing the Executor should been DS-Lite, or your woefully underestimating the Alliance firepower.

The Alliance had aproximately 12 Mon-Cal cruisers with a bare minimum of 3 Home-One style cruisers and at least 2 Liberty (Winged) cruisers which actualy carry more weaponry then the standard cruisers. There was also at least 7 Nebulon-B Frigates. Not to mention a number of Rebel Transports and Corellian Corvettes setup as big bombs designed to suicide strike Imperial Forces.

The Empire had at least 25 Star Destroyers and upwards of 50. This fleet included some of the most battle hardened forces of the Empire, elements of the Death Fleet which was well versed in hunting down and destroying Rebel forces. Toss in the Executor.

The Executor itself is at least a hundred times the size of an ISD. ISDs have been compared to the Mon-Cal cruisers at the time with the ISD having the relative advantage, though it can be argued the Liberty cruisers can match the ISD firepower wise. Numbers wise the Imperial fleet was about the same size as the Rebel fleet. Ship stat wise the Imperial fleet was at least twice as large (25 ISDs to 12 Mon-Cal cruisers and 7 Nebulon-Bs).

With the Executor mounting 5,000 TLs (and these are considered heavy weapons) compared to an ISD mounting 16-64 (depending on model) you have it taking at least 78 ISD-2s to match relative theoretical firepower of the Executor and upwards of 312 ISD-1s. Comparitive shield analysis should also come up with similar numbers.

Now you mention that Ackbar ordered all fire concentrated on the Executor. You failed to mention that the Executor's shields failed immediately after. So a ship that is 100 times the size of an ISD2, has at least 78 times the firepower of an ISD-2, can be destroyed by less then 20 ships which are less then ISD2s.

What we see on screen is the absolute lower limit of the fleet. There could have been a shitload more Rebel ships offscreen.

In a real battle, the Executor would have cut loose and blasted the Rebel fleet away from several light seconds with its thousands of turbolasers. But the Imperial fleet wasn't fighting to win, they were under orders to close in and just keep the Rebels contained. The full bombardment of the Rebel fleet still only managed to to disable a small part of the Executor's shield. The ship would not have been destroyed if there wasn't a Death Star for it to crash into seconds after losing bridge control. In a normal battle, backup bridges would have regained control of the ship, and it could have quickly reentered the battle.

The full bombardment of maybe a dozen ships (not every Rebel ship was in range) managed to down the Executor's shields in under 60 seconds. If thats all it took to blast the Executor's bridge shields, the design is fataly flawed.

Where are you getting this dozen ships from, and saying that the rest were out of range? Ackbar ordered full bombardment from his fleet, which was comprised of an uknown number of ships.

Han Solo saw the Executor, and knowing the forces that were going to be attacking the DSII didn't seem concerned that the Executor was going to totally jack up the Rebel fleet.
We don't know that the 5,000 turbolasers are all HTLs that number could be for TLs in total afterall Saxton came up with an upper limit of ~1,000 heavy turrets if we assume they're ISD-I style turrets that's only 2,000 HTLs leaving us with 3,000 MTLs and LTLs. Also, if a HTL on a Liberty-type can destroy an unshielded or lightly shielded ISD with one shot; why can't the concentrated fire of several cruiser and destroyer level ships momentarily lower the bridge shields? The tendency for shields to be momentarily shut down by sudden concentrated bombardments could be the reason the Mon Cal's back-up shielding is such an advantage even with similar power generation.

Alyeska wrote:The full bombardment of maybe a dozen ships (not every Rebel ship was in range) managed to down the Executor's shields in under 60 seconds. If thats all it took to blast the Executor's bridge shields, the design is fataly flawed.

Every ship was in visual range of the Executor. Isn't that even in range for OUR tech?

You keep throwing out all the ginormous numbers for the Executor... Both DSs had even larger numbers and were taken out by a single fighter and a fighter and a smugglers freighter, respectively. Based on that, why is it so difficult to accept that an entire fleet concentrating it's fire on a ship, coupled with a lucky suicide run to take out it's command crew, would work and work quickly?

Alyeska wrote:The full bombardment of maybe a dozen ships (not every Rebel ship was in range) managed to down the Executor's shields in under 60 seconds. If thats all it took to blast the Executor's bridge shields, the design is fataly flawed.

I don't recall that being one continuous scene, from Ackbar's order to the shields going down. Which, of course, means any time data you derive from that scene is, by itself, worthless.

It's worth considering that Executor didn't seem to be maneuvering and wasn't defending herself properly. Properly fought as intended, she may not have lost her shields so quickly. Piett's order to cover the downed shield with defensive fire suggests that Executor wasn't fighting aggressively, perhaps due to the Emperor's desire to both prolong the battle and use the DS2's superlaser. The problems with her navigation system may also have made her an easier target.

Jim Raynor wrote:Where are you getting this dozen ships from, and saying that the rest were out of range? Ackbar ordered full bombardment from his fleet, which was comprised of an uknown number of ships.

Ok, so thats 12 cruisers and 7 frigates. Everything else is so minor as to be ignorable. The Executor with 5,000 main guns and being 100 times the size of an ISD is taken out by a force of ships that is worth 20% what the Executor is worth. Where did I derive that calculation from? I am comparing the Executor to 78 ISD2s (60 HTLs on an ISD2 to 5,000 on a Executor) and giving the Rebel force status as 16 ISD2s. Mind you the Rebels didn't have all their forces at this point, but thats besides the point.

The DS comparison is a red herring because the situations are dissimilar. The Executor lost critical shields in a critial section where damage could mission kill the Executor very easily. And the Executor was killed by something worth only 20% what it is. It gets even better when you consider that other ISDs were also killed and couldn't protect the Executor.

Consider this as well. Before Ackbar ordered fire concentrated on the Executor, the Imperial lines were already breached and they no longer were paying attention to the Emperors orders as evidence by the fact that Imperial ships were openly engaging Rebel ships. They were now fighting for their lives.

And so the Executor with an apparent shield weakness that allows its bridge to be blown to pieces. And the commanding officers just sit there and let the Rebels pound the bridge shields without using their devestatingly superior firepower to obliterate their opposition.

The death of the Executor is the height of arogance and it shows that a force of ships worth far less can easily kill it. Hell, your AGREEING with me on this issue. It proves how worthless the Executor is as a warship considering how it was killed. The EU attempted to make the Executor better, but in turn they made it worse because for its size its even less capable.

havokeff wrote:

Alyeska wrote:The full bombardment of maybe a dozen ships (not every Rebel ship was in range) managed to down the Executor's shields in under 60 seconds. If thats all it took to blast the Executor's bridge shields, the design is fataly flawed.

Every ship was in visual range of the Executor. Isn't that even in range for OUR tech?

You keep throwing out all the ginormous numbers for the Executor... Both DSs had even larger numbers and were taken out by a single fighter and a fighter and a smugglers freighter, respectively. Based on that, why is it so difficult to accept that an entire fleet concentrating it's fire on a ship, coupled with a lucky suicide run to take out it's command crew, would work and work quickly?

Your DS example is a red herring because the situations are so dissimilar. The Executor was taken out by brute force and a lucky pilot just managed to deliver the killing shot. Had that pilot not done so I imagine Home One was about to nail the bridge with some HTLs and slag it. The DSs were taken out by a critical fighter weakness.

Alyeska wrote:

havokeff wrote:

Alyeska wrote:The full bombardment of maybe a dozen ships (not every Rebel ship was in range) managed to down the Executor's shields in under 60 seconds. If thats all it took to blast the Executor's bridge shields, the design is fataly flawed.

Every ship was in visual range of the Executor. Isn't that even in range for OUR tech?

You keep throwing out all the ginormous numbers for the Executor... Both DSs had even larger numbers and were taken out by a single fighter and a fighter and a smugglers freighter, respectively. Based on that, why is it so difficult to accept that an entire fleet concentrating it's fire on a ship, coupled with a lucky suicide run to take out it's command crew, would work and work quickly?

Your DS example is a red herring because the situations are so dissimilar. The Executor was taken out by brute force and a lucky pilot just managed to deliver the killing shot. Had that pilot not done so I imagine Home One was about to nail the bridge with some HTLs and slag it. The DSs were taken out by a critical fighter weakness.

Well, I'd say the Execotuor was taken out by a critical fighter weakness too

Seriously though, You can imagine all you want, but that isn't what happened. Fighters helped take out the shields and a fighter took out the bridge and as for the situations being dissimilar... On the DS an x-wing flew down a trench besiged by fighters and turbolasers, fired off the killing shot and destroyed the DS. Above the Executor, an A-wing flew the length of the ship between massive structures besiged by fighters and turbolasers and delivered itself as the killing blow which destroyed the ship. Aside from the survivability of the pilot, it's not all that dissimilar... That A-wing pilot is like a screaming Luke-lite.

Alyeska wrote:

Jim Raynor wrote:Where are you getting this dozen ships from, and saying that the rest were out of range? Ackbar ordered full bombardment from his fleet, which was comprised of an uknown number of ships.

Ok, so thats 12 cruisers and 7 frigates. Everything else is so minor as to be ignorable. The Executor with 5,000 main guns and being 100 times the size of an ISD is taken out by a force of ships that is worth 20% what the Executor is worth. Where did I derive that calculation from? I am comparing the Executor to 78 ISD2s (60 HTLs on an ISD2 to 5,000 on a Executor) and giving the Rebel force status as 16 ISD2s. Mind you the Rebels didn't have all their forces at this point, but thats besides the point.

The DS comparison is a red herring because the situations are dissimilar. The Executor lost critical shields in a critial section where damage could mission kill the Executor very easily. And the Executor was killed by something worth only 20% what it is. It gets even better when you consider that other ISDs were also killed and couldn't protect the Executor.

Consider this as well. Before Ackbar ordered fire concentrated on the Executor, the Imperial lines were already breached and they no longer were paying attention to the Emperors orders as evidence by the fact that Imperial ships were openly engaging Rebel ships. They were now fighting for their lives.

And so the Executor with an apparent shield weakness that allows its bridge to be blown to pieces. And the commanding officers just sit there and let the Rebels pound the bridge shields without using their devestatingly superior firepower to obliterate their opposition.

The death of the Executor is the height of arogance and it shows that a force of ships worth far less can easily kill it. Hell, your AGREEING with me on this issue. It proves how worthless the Executor is as a warship considering how it was killed. The EU attempted to make the Executor better, but in turn they made it worse because for its size its even less capable.

You keep saying that the situations are dissimilar. You say the Executor lost shields at a critical time in a critical place. How do you think that Wedge and Lando got into the DSII to blow it up? It lost it's shields at a critical time and place.

Your saying that a force that was only 20% the size of the Executor was able to destroy it and that you find that "funny" Could someone please figure out for me what percentage 30 fighters is compared to the DSI??

Just admit the 2 DSs gettin' blowed up was funny too!!!

havokeff wrote:You keep saying that the situations are dissimilar. You say the Executor lost shields at a critical time in a critical place. How do you think that Wedge and Lando got into the DSII to blow it up? It lost it's shields at a critical time and place.

The DS2 was unfinished and reliant on an external shield source that was taken out by a commando raid. Completely dissimilar.

Your saying that a force that was only 20% the size of the Executor was able to destroy it and that you find that "funny" Could someone please figure out for me what percentage 30 fighters is compared to the DSI??

We already know that the DSs destructions are a big mark against the Empire.

Just admit the 2 DSs gettin' blowed up was funny too!!!

Do you actualy have anything to add here?