More Trektardism

[Connor MacLeod]

Bracketing the ship actually IS a standard Imperial tactic. Han Solo talks about it in that Han Solo trilogy by AC Crispin (I beleive it was in Hutt Gambit.) It's called a "limited barrage pattern"

I'll have to see if I can dig up the quote

And has anyone bothered to link to the image in Mike's "propulsion" page? He shows that hyperdrive speeds and times vary tremendously with locations and the path/route you take, as well as other variables (including hyperdrive quality, random occurances, or whatnot.)

[Aratech]

And has anyone bothered to link to the image in Mike's "propulsion" page? He shows that hyperdrive speeds and times vary tremendously with locations and the path/route you take, as well as other variables (including hyperdrive quality, random occurances, or whatnot.)

Its funny, actually. Spocky actually referenced it first, saying that the fact that it takes 22 days to go from Coruscant to Tatooine was evidence of slow hyperdrive. Wen I threw the whole freaking chart and the map in his face with my last post, he's now sputtering about how it should be thrown out because its inconsistent.

Meanwhile, these same speed inconsistencies in Voyager means "take the highest observable example, multiply it by an order of magnatude and then shout it till blue in the face"

[Darth Servo]

And has anyone bothered to link to the image in Mike's "propulsion" page? He shows that hyperdrive speeds and times vary tremendously with locations and the path/route you take, as well as other variables (including hyperdrive quality, random occurances, or whatnot.)

Yes, and Spock immediately used that variation as an excuse to dismiss the whole thing.

[Darth Servo]

Spock has already been established as a complete liar. Here's another example. Aratech cited "Ensigns of Command" as proof of taking weeks to get anywhere in Trek. Spock offered up two excuses. First, he insists that those times included the time it would take to convince the colonists to move. Second, that it was a range between four days and three weeks.

The Truth:
Starfleet gave an ETA of three weeks for a transport BEFORE Data reported that the colonists didn't want to move.

Four days was the time limit insisted on by the Sheliac to evacuate the colonists. It had nothing to do with the Fed transport ETA.

[Peptuck]

And has anyone bothered to link to the image in Mike's "propulsion" page? He shows that hyperdrive speeds and times vary tremendously with locations and the path/route you take, as well as other variables (including hyperdrive quality, random occurances, or whatnot.)

Its funny, actually. Spocky actually referenced it first, saying that the fact that it takes 22 days to go from Coruscant to Tatooine was evidence of slow hyperdrive. Wen I threw the whole freaking chart and the map in his face with my last post, he's now sputtering about how it should be thrown out because its inconsistent.

Yeah, because its not like it takes vastly differing times to get anywhere in the real world based on things like terrain and the hazards associated with them. Following that logic, it should take me a similar amount of time to drive from, say, Tampa, Florida to Baton Rouge, Louisiana as it would take me to drive from Tampa to an arbitrary spot on the Yucatan Peninsula.

[Kane Starkiller]

He he Mr. Oragahn saw me post here and posted a "rebuttal" which naturally consisted from his restating his flawed reasoning.

Flak rocks the ship from the beginning, but only a direct shot brings the shields down.
This happens very quickly in fact. The yatch goes through a barrage of flak.
However, only direct hit is needed to take down the ship.
That said, as we see the shields drop on the console, we see more flak coming through the cockpit window, and the ships is rocked twice more, as two explosions occur close to the cockpit.
When the droids start to get released, once again, the ship is rocked.
That's for the same bolts which managed to knock the shields off in one direct hit.

Interesting how a person can miss the forest from the trees. The guy states himself that first few hits break through shields AND penetrate hull plating AND take out the shield generator but when further hits fail to cause further damage to the ship even though the shields are now down he somehow concludes that they didn't decrease the power? How?

You could still pretend that the TF had fantastic aim and was trying to shoot down those droids, but I'd ask you which film have you watched then. Wait, which films have you watched, since there's one thing for sure, it's the demonstrated horrible aim of all the TF army, on all levels. DCA, troops, tanks.
Especially during the TPM era (and even in AOTC).
And if we use the EU, all of it, including that retconning about how a few million clonetroopers could pile up huge ratios against billions and billions of battle droids, it can only be explained by an horrible aim.
The same we see in TPM, anyway.

Remember when trying to ascertain the accuracy of starship cannons one should look to accuracy of tanks and troops. Yes that makes so much sense. Of course if his method for determining the accuracy of droids and tanks was the same as here (outright dismiss the dead on shots and declare them accidental) it's a small wonder his conclusion is "horrible aim".

I notice that the same exact bolts (same lenght, same width, same luminosity) that took down the yatch's shields on a single direct hit, also blasted the droids repairing the ship, yet without any consequences for the ship's surrounding hull (and with two droids on three not being entirely destroyed, as we see legs and domes drift away).

Well that's it. They were the same length width and luminosity therefore they were of the same strength. Never mind that DS2 superlaser was of the same intensity as DS1 which was set to "blow up the planet".


Don't worry though, I don't mean to keep answering his non points here but his question as to why I don't keep debating him reminded me of his post that convinced me he has no intention of conducting any kind of reasonable debate. It is his response to my statement about Dooku's ship acceleration at the end of AOTC:

Besides, looking at the film is simple to reveal that's just the fluke of a weird cut. When Dooku leaves the cave, Amidala and clonetroopers fire at his ship.
The camera then moves to Dooku's ship, filming the cockpit's portside. The blaster bolts catch it up and even largely doubletake the vessel. We can also see the background moving behind, at speeds which are simply too low to be anything close to your claim.
Finally, there's the simple fact that Dooku's ship doesn't zap in front of the core ships when it reaches space.

All of you who wondered how would Trekkies react if Lucas himself explicitly stated that ICS is canon can stop wondering now. As you can see even when it comes to canon films fanatics like that will simply declare the scene "wrong" and that's that.
Naturally he "backs up" his claim with stupidity like "background moving slowly". Of course the only available background are stars and planet which are extremely far away and battleships which could've already achieved great speed. When I pointed this out to him he kept spouting excuse after excuse. "Ships were pointing perpendicular to the planet when Dooku's ship reached them so they couldn't have been accelerating" was one of his excuses that was particularly funny. Naturally that the ships could've been accelerating up to a certain point and then simply pointed towards the starsystem they wished to jump to is apparently lost on him.

This exchange made it perfectly clear that there is no reasoning with them and I mean NO reasoning. If a person can look at the cut and dried case such as Dooku's ship acceleration and still fanatically insist that SW ships can't accelerate at those rates then how can we even think about entering into more complex discussions with them. It's not "wall of ignorance" it's "wall of self-deception".

[Lord Poe]

Incoming info dump:

"The Trade Federation uses pulser tracking for its weapons. Spin the ship. It will make it difficult for them to get a reading on us."

They continued to spin, to hug the cavernous shell of the Trade Federation battleship, so close that the larger guns were rendered useless and only the smaller could chance firing at them.

On the viewscreen, an airlock snapped open, and one by one a series of astromech droids popped out of the hatch and onto the transport's hull. The transport straightened and leveled out, and the spinning stopped.

But now there was a new threat. Unable to bring the weapons of their warship to bear in an effective manner, the Trade Federation command dispatched a squad of starfighters. Small, sleek, robot attack ships, they consisted of twin compartments attached to a rounded, swept-back head. As they roared out of the battleship bays, their compartments opened into long slits that exposed their laser guns.

Two of the R2 units were blown away, one on a direct hit, the second when its hold on the transport was shattered.

EXT. NABOO SPACECRAFT - FEDERATION BATTLESHIP -SPACE (FX)

The DROIDS pop onto the exterior of the Naboo spacecraft; the ship races across the surface of the massive Federation battleship, as its guns blast TWO ASTRO DROIDS.

pg.243: "Pash, I want you to take Two flight out of here and make for Tatooine. It's about eight hours out, give or take."

- Eight hour flight time between Alderaan and Tatooine.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I'm done, he's shown himself to be a liar and fucking illiterate as well. He tried to say the UN defines genocide as the destruction of an ethnic group or part of it, rather than the planned destruction of part of an ethnic group or its sum total. He als can't appear to read, 'The asteroid field was so dense they were continuously impacting' as impacting the ships rather than watching the video I presented him to show him that it was so dense the asteroids were impacting EACH OTHER. He's a fucking moron, and like the others at his website will remain to be.

[Peptuck]

You could still pretend that the TF had fantastic aim and was trying to shoot down those droids, but I'd ask you which film have you watched then. Wait, which films have you watched, since there's one thing for sure, it's the demonstrated horrible aim of all the TF army, on all levels. DCA, troops, tanks.
Especially during the TPM era (and even in AOTC).
And if we use the EU, all of it, including that retconning about how a few million clonetroopers could pile up huge ratios against billions and billions of battle droids, it can only be explained by an horrible aim.
The same we see in TPM, anyway.

What kind of a complete dumb-shit are we dealing with here?

Does he honestly believe that space-based battle ships are going to have the same targeting systems as mass-produced battle droids or tanks?

Following that line of thinking, every single soldier in the US military should be carrying an AEGIS.

[Teleros]

Following that line of thinking, every single soldier in the US military should be carrying an AEGIS.

Other way around: AEGIS cruisers and the like target missiles with a guy in a crow's nest and a sniper's telescopic sight .

[Darth Servo]

Besides, looking at the film is simple to reveal that's just the fluke of a weird cut. When Dooku leaves the cave, Amidala and clonetroopers fire at his ship.
The camera then moves to Dooku's ship, filming the cockpit's portside. The blaster bolts catch it up and even largely doubletake the vessel. We can also see the background moving behind, at speeds which are simply too low to be anything close to your claim.
Finally, there's the simple fact that Dooku's ship doesn't zap in front of the core ships when it reaches space.

All of you who wondered how would Trekkies react if Lucas himself explicitly stated that ICS is canon can stop wondering now. As you can see even when it comes to canon films fanatics like that will simply declare the scene "wrong" and that's that.
Naturally he "backs up" his claim with stupidity like "background moving slowly". Of course the only available background are stars and planet which are extremely far away and battleships which could've already achieved great speed.

No, i believev he references a scene where Dooku is still within the atmosphere and the landscape is visible. But to say this constitutes proof that the ship itself is moving slowly only further proves our good Mr. Oragahn really is the basement dwelling idiot that trektards tend to be. Hell, this argument proves he's never even flown in a plane, where at 30,000 feet, even at several hundred mph, the landscape still appears to crawl by.

[Darth Servo]

Incoming info dump:

Thanks for the ammunition but these idiots ignored photographic evidence straight from the film. Novelization quotes won't mean jack to them.

[Kane Starkiller]

No, i believev he references a scene where Dooku is still within the atmosphere and the landscape is visible. But to say this constitutes proof that the ship itself is moving slowly only further proves our good Mr. Oragahn really is the basement dwelling idiot that trektards tend to be. Hell, this argument proves he's never even flown in a plane, where at 30,000 feet, even at several hundred mph, the landscape still appears to crawl by.

That is his argument in the first post, the one I quoted. But this is only a small excerpt from a lengthy exchange in which he continually came up with excuses some of which I mentioned. No evidence of course but the scene MUST be wrong since...well...the SW ships simply can't be that fast.

Incoming info dump:

The novel is not consistent with the films in this regard since the R2 already fixed the shields long before the yacht reached the battleship and we really saw no fighters. It really makes no difference though in fact it makes the battleship's precision targeting all the more impressive.

[Vympel]

These are the same coven of fools who simply stick their fingers in their ears, shake their head, stomp their feet, and shout "no no no no no" when someone points out the obvious fact that the Imperial fleet moved from out behind Endor to behind the Rebel fleet in or about a minute. I'm not surprised they try and spin bullshit about Dooku's ship either.

[Kane Starkiller]

I do love how the discussion went though:
"ICS states that SW ships accelerate at thousands G"
"ICS is wankery! Saxton is a twat!"
"But films also shows acceleration at a rate of thousands of G"
"Um...the scene is wrong. ICS is wank!"

It is fascinating how they are completely convinced that Saxton went out of his way to embellish the numbers just to win SW vs ST debate. I mean to think that a person would dream of risking his real job and reputation to win a fucking nerdy internet pastime.
How seriously do you need to take this debate to find such accusations credible?
The more they slander Saxton the more they reveal their own fanaticism.

[Peptuck]

It is fascinating how they are completely convinced that Saxton went out of his way to embellish the numbers just to win SW vs ST debate. I mean to think that a person would dream of risking his real job and reputation to win a fucking nerdy internet pastime.
How seriously do you need to take this debate to find such accusations credible?

These are Dorkstar acolytes.

[Connor MacLeod]

And we're shocked that rabid trekkies like them behave this way.. why? You don't debate people like tht to convince them, because they can't be convinced (or won't be.. they'll do anything to prove they're right. and with this crowd, they'll do it against ANY universe, not just Star Wars.) You do it either for the edification of the audience (assuming they'r eopen to listening) or for your own amusement/stress relief.

Any of the reasonable trekkies who still debated the issue conceded long ago with the advent of the DK books. All that were left behind were the rabid fanatics, and they've banded together to prop up their delusional little fantasy that there is still a "debate" (or maybe in their case a "war" is more accurate?) going on.

[Darth Ruinus]

I haven't the vaguest idea what kiloton is, but as far as I'm concerned anyone that can annihilate a Borg cube as easily as I could annihilate a beer keg with a shotgun could easily take out any Star Wars ship there is.

Besides the fact that he tell us he doesnt know what a kilton is (and therefore has no real understanding of the firepower involved) he assumes that Borg ships are as strong or even close to SW ships why? Oh, right, because they give the Trek galaxy trouble, so it automatically makes them a danger to everyone else.

except that the bioships are much too swift.

Except that SW ships have anti fighter guns that shot down faster and smaller ships, and they alone could rape Trek ships.

And we already know that 8472 is more than capable of destroying planets, so the Death Star would be nothing to them.

[Darth Servo]

I haven't the vaguest idea what kiloton is, but as far as I'm concerned anyone that can annihilate a Borg cube as easily as I could annihilate a beer keg with a shotgun could easily take out any Star Wars ship there is.

Besides the fact that he tell us he doesnt know what a kilton is

The proper response to such is "thank you for further proving that people who think Trek would defest SW are invariably ignoramouses"

[Peptuck]

I haven't the vaguest idea what kiloton is, but as far as I'm concerned anyone that can annihilate a Borg cube as easily as I could annihilate a beer keg with a shotgun could easily take out any Star Wars ship there is.

Considering how Borg ships are unarmored and can be taken out by targeting single specific parts of the vessel with concentrated fire, this means nothing.

(incidentally, I have no idea what kind of beer kegs this guy deals with, but in my experience, the ones I work with are big, heavy, and would shrug off most shotgun blasts weakr than 8-guage)

And we already know that 8472 is more than capable of destroying planets, so the Death Star would be nothing to them.

Considering that 8472 breaks and flees across an entire theater of war when they suffer less than 30% casualties in a single fleet while attacking a critical target, the Empire would have no trouble seeing them off.

[Ryan Thunder]

I haven't the vaguest idea what kiloton is, but as far as I'm concerned anyone that can annihilate a Borg cube as easily as I could annihilate a beer keg with a shotgun could easily take out any Star Wars ship there is.

Considering how Borg ships are unarmored and can be taken out by targeting single specific parts of the vessel with concentrated fire, this means nothing.

(incidentally, I have no idea what kind of beer kegs this guy deals with, but in my experience, the ones I work with are big, heavy, and would shrug off most shotgun blasts weakr than 8-guage)

Proof that he lives his life in his basement. Obviously the sum total of his knowledge has been acquired from video games and Star Trek.

[Darth Wong]

Do these Borg-wankers realize that a solar flare destroyed a Borg cube even more easily than the S8472 beam did?

[Aratech]

I must say, as an avid video game fan, that that conclusion of yours, Ryan, is an insult to gamers everywhere.

Man what an idiot. For some reason, I have come to believe that the sum total of most of those people would barely be equal to this fellow.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter_McWarrior

[Peptuck]

I must say, as an avid video game fan, that that conclusion of yours, Ryan, is an insult to gamers everywhere.

Man what an idiot. For some reason, I have come to believe that the sum total of most of those people would barely be equal to this fellow.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter_McWarrior

Don't insult Fighter by comparing him to Dorkstar acolytes.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I haven't the vaguest idea what kiloton is, but as far as I'm concerned anyone that can annihilate a Borg cube as easily as I could annihilate a beer keg with a shotgun could easily take out any Star Wars ship there is.

Considering how Borg ships are unarmored and can be taken out by targeting single specific parts of the vessel with concentrated fire, this means nothing.

(incidentally, I have no idea what kind of beer kegs this guy deals with, but in my experience, the ones I work with are big, heavy, and would shrug off most shotgun blasts weakr than 8-guage)

Proof that he lives his life in his basement. Obviously the sum total of his knowledge has been acquired from video games and Star Trek.

Especially as one of them has taken to referencing game mechanics:

How could that give the enemy a great advantage? They're being beamed off the seconds the shields of the Fed ship drop.

If you played the games you know, phasers work better on shields then torpedoes do, torps are more for structual havoc.