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Hmm. I hope so; I'd certainly start watching it on a more regular basis if that particular plot thread develops.VT-16 wrote:The new article on the upcoming episode has some possibly big implications for the series, if this means what I think it does: SpoilerEmphasis mine. Could this mean Spoiler?
I'm no soldier, but it seems more likely that that is because you're more likely to hit someone when you don't know their exact position by putting bullets all over a small area that they could be hiding in. Very different than penetration, and something that semi-automatic would not be ideal for.PainRack wrote:We were trained that automatic fire for our SAWs and by extension, the M-16s were to be used against troops hiding behind light cover.Noble713 wrote: I spent 2 years as an infantryman and I've NEVER heard this line of reasoning before. In my experience, 3-rd burst fire (and by extension auto fire, if our M4's had it) was used solely to pick up the slack of fire suppression when a fire team/squad's SAW/M60/etc. is down due to jams, reloading, or barrel changes. The only way you'd significantly increase penetration would be if the rounds were practically hitting the same hole, one after the other, and that's highly unlikely with any assault rifle except the Russian AN-94.
Ugh. I wouldn't. That's the last thing I'm interested in seeing.Hmm. I hope so; I'd certainly start watching it on a more regular basis if that particular plot thread develops.
Ehhhh, that makes a little more sense, given the context. As I understand it, Singapore has an abundance of vegetation anywhere that isn't an urban conglomerate. So if by "light cover" it's meant "trees" you could kill covered & concealed point targets with concentrated fire, but you're not really getting better penetration, you're just ripping their cover to shreds. It's the same thing with 40mm grenade machine guns: they can't shoot through a house, but concentrated fire will sure as hell flatten one.PainRack wrote: We were trained that automatic fire for our SAWs and by extension, the M-16s were to be used against troops hiding behind light cover.
Well, since you seem to clearly know all the details and variables involved in such a feat, maybe you can provide the evidence to back up your claim that YOUR answer is the only one that makes sense?PainRack wrote: So? Up your firepower high enough so that it burn through the crates and hit the clonetroopers hiding on the other side. It doesn't have to be a single shot either, it may require repeated bursts, but so what?
Uh, as I recall one of my chief argument was "they don't want to use extremely powerful settings and thereby risk a stray bolt hitting something volatile or dangerous." not "the battle droids have enough accuracy not to hit something volatile" Maybe you can point out where I said so if I did. Hell, I haven't even touched on the other possibilities. (I doubt you even bothered to consider shielding for example.)Hang on, I'm not the one making accuracy statements about the droids being smart enough not to hit violatile targets.
Fine, I'm waiting for your detailed evidence to back up your claims that the ONLY answer is the one you propose, since (as I noted) you clearly have all the evidence at hand.The point is, in this scenario, there was no reason for the droids not to be using increased firepower so as to waste away the Clones. Your argument that the droids might be using limited firepower in lieu of violatiles doesn't wash, since we already SEE the droids blasting away at said crates, which means that they aren't afraid of the crates being violate, they're blasting away merrily into thin air as part of suppression fire, which means they're NOT afraid of hitting stray targets and etc etc etc. Said fuel drums were vulnerable to the clonetrooper pistols, that's obviously not a standard of high damage capacity casing. And even if there were violatile targets lying around, that made even MORE sense to blast THROUGH the limited cover the clonetroopers were lying around in, since you would miss hitting the stray fuel tanks lying around. And even if said crates were violatile, it would be the clonetroopers and the Jedi eating the dust, not you.[
Or at worse, the droid armies lose another bunch of droids and a tank. What's that compared to the million droids being produced daily?
We already knew the droid army was being commanded badly. They have a flimsy command structure that's inflexible and slow to respond to changing circumstances. Its unweildy, vulnerable to cracking under pressure and droid tactics places too little value on cover and force preservation. Droids would smash aside other droids so as to take their place in the firing line and etc. I'm just saying the Clone wars series show that the droids obviously must have another layer of stupidity layered into them. The inability to choose appropiate firepower and weapons to the situation. Look at how they chose to take out Jar Jar Binks. Deploy a goodly number of depth charges, THEN launch a missile? One that's powerful enough to cause a huge blast, but not take out the big fish monster, meaning they invested a significant amount of its payload on concussive effects. Good when used against solid or in this case, underwater. But one has to wonder why the droid armies chose to use a blast weapon as an AP weapon. Alternatively, witness the hunt against Master Yoda and the 4 clonetroopers in the first episode. Slow tactical response and inappropiate tactics and weapons.......
The corollary was this. Mutiple shots in the same spot, in a tight burst pattern would cause the cover to break apart. They demonstrated that easily by showing penetration and concretes.Noble713 wrote: Ehhhh, that makes a little more sense, given the context. As I understand it, Singapore has an abundance of vegetation anywhere that isn't an urban conglomerate. So if by "light cover" it's meant "trees" you could kill covered & concealed point targets with concentrated fire, but you're not really getting better penetration, you're just ripping their cover to shreds. It's the same thing with 40mm grenade machine guns: they can't shoot through a house, but concentrated fire will sure as hell flatten one.
Actually, we have the same amount of firepower in our infantry teams. However, understand that I'm NOT infantry:D. Military policemen carry obscene power when we deploy our GPMS, but otherwise, we're stuck with a ten man rifle section.I'd still say it's a bit of a waste of ammo/poor application of the weapon system but not knowing the composition of your squads/fire teams it's hard to judge. A US team would probably employ HE weapons (M203, AT-4, grenades, etc.) to kill protected point targets and allow the SAW to focus on suppression.
In all fairness; they really are slaves. The fact that Traviss says it doesn't mean it ain't so, even a broken clock is right twice a day.TheSpaceman? wrote:I can't be the only one who though Slick sounded like Traviss, can I? I almost thought it could be on purpose.
I want to argue against that but can't really find a good one. If the Republic has an out some how for the odd ball clone to leave the GAR, then I think it would be harder to call it slavery.NecronLord wrote:In all fairness; they really are slaves. The fact that Traviss says it doesn't mean it ain't so, even a broken clock is right twice a day.TheSpaceman? wrote:I can't be the only one who though Slick sounded like Traviss, can I? I almost thought it could be on purpose.
I'm more curious over self termination rates after Order 66?ray245 wrote:Which makes me wonder, will there be any clones that break down crying after Order 66?
I'm pretty sure the Kaminoans (though this might be Traviss) have even been mentioned killing clone children that don't measure up during training. I'm not sure of the source, though, I don't really follow the books/comics. Though they kept the ARCs in suspended animation IIRC. "We don't trust you. Get into that cylinder labelled 'break glass in case of war.' We may never wake you up."Knife wrote:I want to argue against that but can't really find a good one. If the Republic has an out some how for the odd ball clone to leave the GAR, then I think it would be harder to call it slavery.
Yeah. I believe it was in the DK visual dictionaries (something like 6 clones out of every 200 were aberrant or something to that effect.)NecronLord wrote: I'm pretty sure the Kaminoans (though this might be Traviss) have even been mentioned killing clone children that don't measure up during training. I'm not sure of the source, though, I don't really follow the books/comics. Though they kept the ARCs in suspended animation IIRC. "We don't trust you. Get into that cylinder labelled 'break glass in case of war.' We may never wake you up."
I was more referring to the way the Jedi were demonized. Even if the clones are technically slaves(I haven't read enough of the EU to know for sure), the way he spoke of the Jedi seemed to have a Travissian slant to it.NecronLord wrote:In all fairness; they really are slaves. The fact that Traviss says it doesn't mean it ain't so, even a broken clock is right twice a day.TheSpaceman? wrote:I can't be the only one who though Slick sounded like Traviss, can I? I almost thought it could be on purpose.
I'd say that conscription is a form of slavery, albeit comparatively benign and at times a neccessary evil. Of course, the Republic/Jedi are in a position where they're forced to use the clones (the alternative being 'be annexed by the CIS'). Of course, I expect that as far as the clones know, the jedi planned to buy them as a peacetime army. Also. what's all this about them getting paid?Ender wrote:WRT the clones as slaves, that's a bit weird. They were paid for their service, treated as humans rather than property (though that varied from person to person), were granted leave and downtime, and were eventually allowed to retire and leave the service. On the other hand, they were contracted into a force not of their choosing from birth. Personally, given the standard of droids as clear slaves in SW, it may be more accurate to view them as draftees rather than slaves.
I'm pretty sure the idea in the comic that introduced them was that they'd never be awakened, until Kamino itself was threatened. They certainly weren't shipped out with the others.Ender wrote:As to the morality of it, I'm on the fence. You don't feel the passage of time for a few months that you would otherwise just be sitting around getting cabin fever? I'm not sure I really feel bad for you.
Demonised? They're enslaving you. That sounds like a perfectly reasonable reason to hate someone, no matter how nice they are about it.TheSpaceman? wrote:I was more referring to the way the Jedi were demonized. Even if the clones are technically slaves(I haven't read enough of the EU to know for sure), the way he spoke of the Jedi seemed to have a Travissian slant to it.
The only reason I remember Loathsom's name is because it's on the back of my soundtrack case. I don't remember the design of the octopus ship at all because it's been a good while since I saw the movie.VT-16 wrote:They did show Ventress walking to the Trident, octopus ship that nabs Rotta in the film. And we see General Loathsom or whatever begin his campaign in full.