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Beowulf wrote:There is a fourth group of people: Nations which have spies in the Illian or Cyprus Councils.

And those people should be talking to me, which is funny, because nobody has talked to me about this subject. At all.

The Illian Council is pretty damn tiny. 9 people, all powerful regents. The traditional view is to allow for spies in all kinds of places, but if anyone wants to say that the leader of a nation is really a spy for another power..... well, that needs to be cleared with Hotfoot. And he won't.

On that note, let me throw in my two cents about the current situation in the Diplomacy thread. To a degree, Bugsby is right, if Straha has not shown himself to be a clear and present threat to your nation, you shouldn't be too terribly worried.

However, on the flipside, this is all politicking. People who have little to worry about from the Jihad right now stand to lose little by opposing it. The Jihad has no allies, and thus no one stands to lose from the Jihad's defeat except, well, the Jihad. While there is a certain degree of metagaming involved with painting Straha as the great satan, it can be justified somewhat by simple suitcase espionage into the region, as I'd suspect the attitude of the Jihad leadership is well known to most of its citizens, after all, it would have to be indoctrinated at some point, no?

The simple matter is this, by going hog-wild and creating grand alliances this early against Straha, you're all leaving yourselves open to some grand betrayals in the future. So, go ahead, have fun, and remember, I'll be waiting.

Concerning spies in governments. Aides, minor senators, slaves, and the like, are more or less fair game (though, as always, confirm your spies with me first, or they will not count), actual heads of state are NOT considered fair game, unless you have an exceptionally good reason for me to allow it (and usually that reason will involve a lot of heavy roleplaying between the target and yourself, or myself if you are doing a true covert action through me).

So, any questions?

Keep in mind that some are better postioned than others.

For example you won't be seeing any grand spy networks working for the WolGars. The same goes for any other nation that's tribal, isolationist or so on.

On the flip side those nations would be tougher than normal to penerate.

Not impossible, just tougher than normal.

Hotfoot wrote:However, on the flipside, this is all politicking. People who have little to worry about from the Jihad right now stand to lose little by opposing it. The Jihad has no allies, and thus no one stands to lose from the Jihad's defeat except, well, the Jihad. While there is a certain degree of metagaming involved with painting Straha as the great satan, it can be justified somewhat by simple suitcase espionage into the region, as I'd suspect the attitude of the Jihad leadership is well known to most of its citizens, after all, it would have to be indoctrinated at some point, no?

Look, my nation's opinions are quite public, all we really do is Jihad. I don't mind being portrayed as the great satan, in fact I'm expecting it. But what everyone else should know is that I'm going to be going to war with the nations around me, no doubts unless something really really really odd happens inside the Swordbearer's (current high priest) head.

But that being said, I find it extremely odd that everyone, their mother, AND their cousin is suddenly willing to join an Anti-JIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDD alliance. Let's look at Italy for example. Italy has unfriendly neighbors up north, it has lots of shore line to protect, and it has a relativley small army. It's placed so that I have to go through SEVEN nations to reach them, and that's if I ignore Stormbringer AND Pablo, leaving my flanks open to them for their Grand armies to attack. So why the hell are they joining an Alliance that obviously doesn't need them, and gives them no benefits?! Further more, as long as the alliance looks like its working out between Pablo, Marcao, Cyprus, and the Dardenelles I'm going to be hitting an allied nation any way I go.

I understand not wanting me to expand, if I was in your place I wouldn't either. BUT MAKING POINTLESS AND NONBENEFICIAL ALLIANCES JUST SO YOU CAN GET YOUR PEOPLE KILLED IS GRADE A STUPIDITY! I mean imagine your advisors: "My liege, we must join this alliance so we have a pretense to send troops off to die to prevent the expansion of a nation that cannot possibly threaten us!" Just imagine...

frigidmagi wrote:Golems, you should at least have golems Admiral, I mean granted it was jews in Warsaw that started the story but still. GOLEMS!

No fantasy jewish power is complete without them I say!

Yes I am ranting. Yes I know, I know shut up magi, no one cares magi...

no one has any care unless it's Tolken mutter

I've got magic metal. You know, glowing swords, self-guided arrow-tips, shields that reflect enemy spells, etc. All the magic i think i need.

Golems? The Khazar's don't have stone magic. Maybe they'll come up with a metal golem, or something.

The first golem was made of clay. Come on try to learn the mythology behind the D&D junk at least people, please?

Straha wrote:I understand not wanting me to expand, if I was in your place I wouldn't either. BUT MAKING POINTLESS AND NONBENEFICIAL ALLIANCES JUST SO YOU CAN GET YOUR PEOPLE KILLED IS GRADE A STUPIDITY! I mean imagine your advisors: "My liege, we must join this alliance so we have a pretense to send troops off to die to prevent the expansion of a nation that cannot possibly threaten us!" Just imagine...

You're right, but if they want to weaken their own forces and lands by fighting a foe a continent away, let them. Their foolishness will come back to haunt them later...

Straha wrote:I understand not wanting me to expand, if I was in your place I wouldn't either. BUT MAKING POINTLESS AND NONBENEFICIAL ALLIANCES JUST SO YOU CAN GET YOUR PEOPLE KILLED IS GRADE A STUPIDITY! I mean imagine your advisors: "My liege, we must join this alliance so we have a pretense to send troops off to die to prevent the expansion of a nation that cannot possibly threaten us!" Just imagine...

Marcao and the Cypriots are allied with me because you constitute a direct military threat to their survival as free nations. The same is true in a more limited sense for Alyrium and the Dardanelle nation, because they can look ten or twenty years down the road and see you attack them.

Stormbringer is allied with me because you constitute a direct economic threat to a major method of revenue generation: trade. You have closed all but one port of your territory to foreign trade, thus effectively cutting off the Levant and Egypt (two of the most productive regions in the classical world) from the rest of the world. Should you extend your fundamentalist tentacles into the Western Mediterranean, it would only mean more money out of his pocket.

Furthermore, by helping me resist your aggression he guarantees my friendship and indulgence, a smart move as I am the only real threat to his home territories.

Hotfoot wrote:

Straha wrote:I understand not wanting me to expand, if I was in your place I wouldn't either. BUT MAKING POINTLESS AND NONBENEFICIAL ALLIANCES JUST SO YOU CAN GET YOUR PEOPLE KILLED IS GRADE A STUPIDITY! I mean imagine your advisors: "My liege, we must join this alliance so we have a pretense to send troops off to die to prevent the expansion of a nation that cannot possibly threaten us!" Just imagine...

You're right, but if they want to weaken their own forces and lands by fighting a foe a continent away, let them. Their foolishness will come back to haunt them later...

Why do you think the extent of my contribution is showing up at the meeting when the game starts and letting Nitram pass through?

a smart move as I am the only real threat to his home territories.

Oh, really?

Straha why are you ignoring the fact that the same thing happened in the real world? Remember the Crusades?

Everyone who's in this alliance is seeking two things, safety from you and power. For those farrrrr away, power is the prime movation. You given them an excuse to limber up the troops and see what they can get in loot, trade concessions or territory.

And I doubt you missed this.

Straha wrote:Let's look at Italy for example. Italy has unfriendly neighbors up north, it has lots of shore line to protect, and it has a relativley small army. It's placed so that I have to go through SEVEN nations to reach them, and that's if I ignore Stormbringer AND Pablo, leaving my flanks open to them for their Grand armies to attack. So why the hell are they joining an Alliance that obviously doesn't need them, and gives them no benefits?! Further more, as long as the alliance looks like its working out between Pablo, Marcao, Cyprus, and the Dardenelles I'm going to be hitting an allied nation any way I go.

I am only joining to protect my freedom at the seas. If you ever take to the see, maybe I will be worried. As for my land...Well I am not worried about you on the land. It would be funny to see thousands of screaming idiots get cut to shreds on my defenses.

frigidmagi wrote:Straha why are you ignoring the fact that the same thing happened in the real world? Remember the Crusades?

Jihad: ~700AD

First Crusade: 1095 AD

roughly four hundred years difference... not even close!

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Marcao and the Cypriots are allied with me because you constitute a direct military threat to their survival as free nations. The same is true in a more limited sense for Alyrium and the Dardanelle nation, because they can look ten or twenty years down the road and see you attack them.

I know, that's why I mentioned that it was beneficial for THEM to have the treaty in my post. My rantage is not directed at them, but rather at people who are joining the alliance just because it's there, not for any commonsense reason.

Stormbringer is allied with me because you constitute a direct economic threat to a major method of revenue generation: trade. You have closed all but one port of your territory to foreign trade, thus effectively cutting off the Levant and Egypt (two of the most productive regions in the classical world) from the rest of the world. Should you extend your fundamentalist tentacles into the Western Mediterranean, it would only mean more money out of his pocket.

This I understand completley, it has a reason to exist. Italy pledging support should I ever try to take the Dardenelles on the other hand, doesn't.

People, it's a very simple thought process here. If you enter into an alliance against me, you're essentially declaring war against me in the near future. So, if you have no interest in losing men to me and have no reason to fear me any time soon, why bother?

Straha wrote:Italy pledging support should I ever try to take the Dardenelles on the other hand, doesn't.

your right.

i think i will just let the others try and fight you. Unless you make a massive navy you are no real threat to me. yet

It's better to fight the enemy in someone else's front yard than in yours.

I admit when I started scheming, I didn't think it'd turn into this bang-bus. Ugh. Quite annoying, makes me wish I didn't set out on this quest to become an economic powerhouse.

frigidmagi wrote:It's better to fight the enemy in someone else's front yard than in yours.

It's better to have other people fight your enemy in their front yard, than to fight at all.

Not if they lose.

Straha wrote:People, it's a very simple thought process here. If you enter into an alliance against me, you're essentially declaring war against me in the near future.

You have no cause to complain here. By your own admission and doctrines (which would be well known) you're in a state of permanent war with everyone who is not a member of the faithful--everyone but yourself, that is.

Thirdfain wrote:Oh, really?

Well, considering that every other neighbor of his has a substantially weaker army than his, while mine is substantially stronger...

frigidmagi wrote:Not if they lose.

If they lose when they outnumber, and outgun your enemy, do you really want to fight on their side?

Yes, because if I help, they are not outnumbered and out gunned and frankly you already declared that you're going to conqear Europe anything that keeps you far away is a good thing.

Pablo Sanchez wrote:

Straha wrote:People, it's a very simple thought process here. If you enter into an alliance against me, you're essentially declaring war against me in the near future.

You have no cause to complain here. By your own admission and doctrines (which would be well known) you're in a state of permanent war with everyone who is not a member of the faithful--everyone but yourself, that is.

No, not exactly permanent war. Just a state of "we're going to be going to war with you when we get to you!" That's why we allow trade with other nations. Now, as I've said repeatedly, I have nothing against nations who are right next door allying against me because I pose a threat to them, but when Britain allies with them against me I feel I must call into question what they're thinking by allying against me when in order to do anything they'll have to spend a good portion of a year just getting troops down to me.

My problems wre never with you, if anything you have the most cause to be anxious considering you're the only one with a common border with me, but with those who put no thought into the alliances, and allied against me just because I was there.

Yes god forbid they deal with a possible threat early. NO THINKING ALLOWED!

Frigid, SIT DOWN. The repetition gets annoying.

I think I'll just apply the logical method to this. Those that are too far away and not beneficial for my little web of economic benefit won't get transport to Cyprus. I've got limited airlift power, even though I'm about the only one with it. I can't pull you all along.