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Stark wrote:You really harp on professional players, huh? You do know that the money earned by top-tier players is fust a function of the money to be made from their performance, right? It's not an objective measure of 'skill'. You know how much top-tier hopscotch players make? NOTHING, because nobody pays to watch/sponsorship.

If any shmo could do it they could just pick any shmo and not do their 12 hour training regiments. You are making a claim, try backing it up with actual evidence. All indicators suggest that there is actual skill involved rather than it mostly being due to luck. There are tournaments, actually plenty of them, and it's usually the big names that win them, not just random guy. You calling shanigans? Go ahead, pick up the game, and get to the top of the ladder then or at least provide some other kind of evidence. Otherwise all you're doing is trolling.

In other news: AP can't do anything but scream TROLL when he gets opposition.

Understanding professional sport = trolling.

Not understanding how pay is not an indicator of skill = clever?

I have a spare SC2 guest pass if anyone wants it. Could be good for proving a point.

CaptHawkeye wrote:In other news: AP can't do anything but scream TROLL when he gets opposition.

No you and stark continuously making unsubstantiated claims without actually citing any actual evidence or sources supporting them when faced with actual evidence that you guys are wrong is what makes it trolling.

You are yet to explain why is it that there is functional ranking systems and that some random schmo off the streed never win any tournament that are hosted rather than it normally going to the known top players if the actual 'skill' is so low that it doesn't meet the definition and that luck is the major factor. You also failed in explaining how starcraft 2 having simple mechanics make it a skilless game whilst a game like chess has simpler mechanics and rules yet is widely considered a very strategically deep game requiring a lot of skill to play at the top levels.

I'm generally not that great, but here's me pulling a win out of my arse from the "I can't believe that actually worked" file.

Wasn't so much of a Cannon push as it was a Cannon Reach Around.



It's not cheese when the other guy's already convinced that he's won.

What league are you in?

Also, when you had the corner secure and you knew you had him smashed in economy why did you wait so long to push with Zealots?

Bronze, I managed to bomb four out of the five placement matches.

I didn't actually have a strategy in mind. I started pumping zealots after I realised that my two zealots and probe were a lot more successful then I thought they were.

I was just happy to score a win after my main got taken out.

Ah, I was asking because I'm 1 and 1 on my placement matches - I've been playing CoH at the local PC Bang and not playing much SCII* - I just wanted to know what ranking my play would put me at and I'm half expecting silver as a first placement.


*I guess I just made one of Stark's points for him. xD

Norade wrote:Ah, I was asking because I'm 1 and 1 on my placement matches - I've been playing CoH at the local PC Bang and not playing much SCII* - I just wanted to know what ranking my play would put me at and I'm half expecting silver as a first placement.


*I guess I just made one of Stark's points for him. xD

Don't worry about your initial placement. If you're posting any kind of winning average, you get bumped up to the next league in a hurry. I got cheesed on my placement matches and wound up in the bronze, but within five or so wins, I was already in gold. With a couple more solid wins, who knows? Maybe I could get up to platinum.

Alferd Packer wrote:

Norade wrote:Ah, I was asking because I'm 1 and 1 on my placement matches - I've been playing CoH at the local PC Bang and not playing much SCII* - I just wanted to know what ranking my play would put me at and I'm half expecting silver as a first placement.


*I guess I just made one of Stark's points for him. xD

Don't worry about your initial placement. If you're posting any kind of winning average, you get bumped up to the next league in a hurry. I got cheesed on my placement matches and wound up in the bronze, but within five or so wins, I was already in gold. With a couple more solid wins, who knows? Maybe I could get up to platinum.

Who said I was worried about it? I just wanted to know what to expect from each league. I'm almost tempted to bomb on purpose and have some fun in Bronze.

It's no fun bullying people who are clearly less skilled as you are. It's also no fun losing to guys who are better, but at least you can learn from it and improve your game.

Stofsk wrote:It's no fun bullying people who are clearly less skilled as you are. It's also no fun losing to guys who are better, but at least you can learn from it and improve your game.

I don't mind losing, but in Bronze I could screw around a bit with builds and use things I wouldn't get to in more challenging games.

Stofsk wrote:It's no fun bullying people who are clearly less skilled as you are. It's also no fun losing to guys who are better, but at least you can learn from it and improve your game.

Well...

I'll be honest, it IS fun playing against those you know you will win against, largely because you can be more reckless and try things you wouldn't normally get away with. A big 'For Instance' is the first time I tried a "Canon rush" was in a placement game in 2v2. Ran a probe over, built a pylon, skipped building gateway to build a forge, built a canon right next to their harvesting area, and BAM! end of player in a short bit.

NEVER have had it work in any of the actual games.

But heres another thing. And I know all the talk about the game ;eve;s themselves happened in the start of the thread but in truth, I am only just playing them now

So many many of those out there that played through the game had a tendency to "Milk" levels? Sure there are various achievements for doing it as fast as possible, but I tend to take as long as possible, usually to build up a large enough army and just steamroll the map. A for instance... On the third mission, where you try to 'sneak' into the back of a Protoss shrine while they are being attacked at the front by Zerg... I actually took out the forward Zerg base, buil bunkers there to put the two in a state of "stalemate" so no matter how long I took, neither Zerg nor Protoss would eliminate the other.

I gathered my forces, taking close to 30min, before steamrolling both the Zerg bases AND protoss base and THEN collected the artifact

Norade wrote:

Alferd Packer wrote:

Norade wrote:Ah, I was asking because I'm 1 and 1 on my placement matches - I've been playing CoH at the local PC Bang and not playing much SCII* - I just wanted to know what ranking my play would put me at and I'm half expecting silver as a first placement.


*I guess I just made one of Stark's points for him. xD

Don't worry about your initial placement. If you're posting any kind of winning average, you get bumped up to the next league in a hurry. I got cheesed on my placement matches and wound up in the bronze, but within five or so wins, I was already in gold. With a couple more solid wins, who knows? Maybe I could get up to platinum.

Who said I was worried about it? I just wanted to know what to expect from each league. I'm almost tempted to bomb on purpose and have some fun in Bronze.

Don't do that, it's just pointless, and you'll learn incredibly bad habits. Everything up to around gold league is one of two things.

a) Cheese builds. Zerg that 6 pool you, cannon rushes, barrack/bunker rushes etc etc - I could go on. They are all things you won't see much of in higher leagues, but in the lower one's you'll see them virtually every single game. It'll just teach you bad habits, since you'll have to play to defeat them

b) terrible players. We're talking about people that turtle up relentlessly no matter what race they play, people that go for one gimmicky strategy then quit if it doesn't work - i'm playing in Silver, and had someone try to BC rush me, after I killed his 4 Battlecruisers he instantly quit out despite having 2 bases defended.

Silver/gold is probably your best bet for placement, it's a nice average, the terrible players tend to have been weeded out, and you're facing people that will challenge you and make you improve your game.

Minischoles wrote:Don't do that, it's just pointless, and you'll learn incredibly bad habits. Everything up to around gold league is one of two things.

a) Cheese builds. Zerg that 6 pool you, cannon rushes, barrack/bunker rushes etc etc - I could go on. They are all things you won't see much of in higher leagues, but in the lower one's you'll see them virtually every single game. It'll just teach you bad habits, since you'll have to play to defeat them

b) terrible players. We're talking about people that turtle up relentlessly no matter what race they play, people that go for one gimmicky strategy then quit if it doesn't work - i'm playing in Silver, and had someone try to BC rush me, after I killed his 4 Battlecruisers he instantly quit out despite having 2 bases defended.

Silver/gold is probably your best bet for placement, it's a nice average, the terrible players tend to have been weeded out, and you're facing people that will challenge you and make you improve your game.

It's more fun that worrying about timing buildings and having a great macro game.

Norade wrote:

Stofsk wrote:It's no fun bullying people who are clearly less skilled as you are. It's also no fun losing to guys who are better, but at least you can learn from it and improve your game.

I don't mind losing, but in Bronze I could screw around a bit with builds and use things I wouldn't get to in more challenging games.

Call me crazy, but I think screwing around with those builds in higher leagues shows the mark of a good player. You're at least trying new things, and you never know it might put your opponent off-balance.

You could also try team play. Do you have a friend you can team up with? Or try someone from SDN. Team play adds a new layer to the game. Mix and match units from different races. Try combined and timed push. Co-ordinate your attacks; have your friend make a feint attack while you drop units behind their lines. While your friend does hit and run attacks and keeps the other team's attention on him, you tech up and get nukes or carriers or something.

Stofsk wrote:

Norade wrote:

Stofsk wrote:It's no fun bullying people who are clearly less skilled as you are. It's also no fun losing to guys who are better, but at least you can learn from it and improve your game.

I don't mind losing, but in Bronze I could screw around a bit with builds and use things I wouldn't get to in more challenging games.

Call me crazy, but I think screwing around with those builds in higher leagues shows the mark of a good player. You're at least trying new things, and you never know it might put your opponent off-balance.

You could also try team play. Do you have a friend you can team up with? Or try someone from SDN. Team play adds a new layer to the game. Mix and match units from different races. Try combined and timed push. Co-ordinate your attacks; have your friend make a feint attack while you drop units behind their lines. While your friend does hit and run attacks and keeps the other team's attention on him, you tech up and get nukes or carriers or something.

When did I say I was a good player? I said I thought I'd be silver at best based on my ranking matches so even a bronze player might beat me if I'm not careful.

As for team play, I tend to agree with people that say it's pretty unbalanced in terms of what some teams and combos can do and all in attacks are often overrepresented. Besides, if I want to play a team game I can get friends over and we can make up an unranked 2v2 anytime we want.

Stofsk wrote:It's no fun bullying people who are clearly less skilled as you are. It's also no fun losing to guys who are better, but at least you can learn from it and improve your game.

True that, it is kind of sad when you watch the reply and notice the other guy didn't actually spend anything amd kept manually controlling his mules rather then just dumping them on the mineral lines.

This guy was a bit tighter with his game though:



He went for a 2 Gate proxy and started knocking on my door. Thankfully his micro was just a little bit more shit then mine, I managed to recover (by moving to where he used to be) and hit back after he'd spent all his minerals.

Random is really hard. There is a benefit where your opponent can't start thinking about strategy until the first scouts are exchanged and it does give you a good feel for what each side can spit out under pressure. The trade off is that you've got a lot more to learn and will as a consequence lose a lot more games. I do find the experience rewarding though, it does make playing the game feel more well rounded.

Spyder wrote:

Stofsk wrote:It's no fun bullying people who are clearly less skilled as you are. It's also no fun losing to guys who are better, but at least you can learn from it and improve your game.

True that, it is kind of sad when you watch the reply and notice the other guy didn't actually spend anything amd kept manually controlling his mules rather then just dumping them on the mineral lines.

Yeah that's pretty sad. I'd rather lose to a pro than win over a noob.

This guy was a bit tighter with his game though:

*snip*

He went for a 2 Gate proxy and started knocking on my door. Thankfully his micro was just a little bit more shit then mine, I managed to recover (by moving to where he used to be) and hit back after he'd spent all his minerals.

Can I just say I *hate* cheese tactics?



This is a long game which started with our opposition doing cheesy rushes and proxy gates. The zerg player 7-pooled, while the protoss player set up a proxy where my friend's natural expansion was. Note that I spotted the proxy and told him about it over typing, because our fucking voice chat failed for the millionth time! We've decided to fuck blizzard's bullshit voice chat and use ventrillo instead.

That game was longer and harder than it had to be because of a lack of voice chat.

Random is really hard. There is a benefit where your opponent can't start thinking about strategy until the first scouts are exchanged and it does give you a good feel for what each side can spit out under pressure. The trade off is that you've got a lot more to learn and will as a consequence lose a lot more games. I do find the experience rewarding though, it does make playing the game feel more well rounded.

I'm considering random, but I'm having fun playing as terran. One thing I'm considering is playing as protoss from now on, learn what to do with them, then play as zerg, then go as random. It helps if you focus on one side and learn how they work, then focus on another race.

So tanking for Bronze isn't happening now as I just won placement game number three pushing me to a 2 -1 record. He tried early Voids but my 1 rax FE into a 4 rax MMM build was just too much. My micro sucks, but at least my scouting was good enough to deny him expansions.

I always thought I sucked at this game, but after destroying in another placement match I'm starting to revise what I think. I'm no pro, but I can pull off a MMM with tanks and Thors well enough. My flaw is that I feel I play too passive and I could go for a win a bit quicker than I usually do.

Has anyone thought about just how ungodly overpowered the Terran would be if they had access to all the units and upgrades from the single game?

Last night while playing, I found myself REALLY Wishing I had access to automated flamethrower turrets, self healing mech units, automated Gas mines (best terran upgrade EVER)

Makes me wonder what custom Zerg and Protoss upgrades will come out for thier missions.

I ended up getting placed in the gold league for some reason (my record was 2-3). Frankly, I think the custom maps are more entertaining, since for some reason the constant unit grinding and constant fear of cheap early rushes just bugs me too much. I've taken a fancy to this "Heroes Last Stand" custom map, even if surviving is heavily dependant on having capable teammates (and until recently the victory trigger was bugged).

Norade wrote:I always thought I sucked at this game, but after destroying in another placement match I'm starting to revise what I think. I'm no pro, but I can pull off a MMM with tanks and Thors well enough. My flaw is that I feel I play too passive and I could go for a win a bit quicker than I usually do.

The problem with quick wins is that you have to "WIN".

I have lost a lot of games recently because "I" rush out and kill about 90% of someone, but get pushed back. The other team members seem incapable of killing the remaining 10%, and it eventually comes back to kill us all.

I havn't played online in weeks now just because I am sick of getting people who don't seem to be able to pull off fast wins. And because of that I am stuck in the bronze league and never advance. It seems wierd if I was in a better league, I might be doing better by virtue of having other team members who were also competant.