SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK III

[Shroom Man 777]

I wonder what I can possibly do to those Mushroom Military dudes who sold stuff to the Tonkins. I mean, what are they guilty of? They didn't sell anything to the Libertians, the Tonkins were the ones who brought the stuff to Libertia.

Demoting them? That's the only thing I could think of. Lifetime latrine duty?

[RogueIce]

I wonder what I can possibly do to those Mushroom Military dudes who sold stuff to the Tonkins. I mean, what are they guilty of? They didn't sell anything to the Libertians, the Tonkins were the ones who brought the stuff to Libertia.

Demoting them? That's the only thing I could think of. Lifetime latrine duty?

Probably, as well as possibly sacking some of your intel guys. As phongn said, the IRT is apparently rather demilitarized. So the question should've been asked "What exactly is he going to do with them?" at some point. If they didn't even try to figure this out, well, I'd imagine heads will roll and surplus equipment sales policies modified accordingly.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Shroom, what you can do, is have a law restricting the export of arms without the express permission of the government, and there must be documentation as to where the sale goes to.

[K. A. Pital]

Out of universe, neither me nor my wife have anything to do with Ramsley's armament.

Also, my wife dropped playing Ramsley and decided to stick to the Air Marshall which is her true persona.

Anyone who wants to control the Diocese for a while, you're welcome.

As for Saddam, as far as I know this is purely my political line and there are no hidden triggers anywhere in it, I just want to get rid of his existing bioweapons and all facilities. By any means.

[phongn]

Then look at it from a corporate perspective. The MESS has been some of your best and most consistent trading partners. Now, compared to the obvious negative reaction you'll get from trying to run our blockade, which makes more sense for you?

Do you want to cut out what has been a prosperous trading deal with the IRT, for that matter, for a small country that frankly the MESS should not be effectively protecting? I think the MESS' foreign policy on the issue has been terribly mishandled. You're sticking your necks out for very little gain. The IRT is there for a reason (resources, money) - what's the MESS doing?

Send those APCs to Alexander in direct contravention of stated MESS policies, and risk an armed confrontation between IRT and MESS naval forces, or simply wait and aid the rest of us in getting Alexandria to the point the world community is willing to send them APCs and the like?

Except that I've been doing a good deal of work in Alexandria, and frankly even for defense he needs more than freaking light arms.

The ICTL agreement was for small arms with items such as armored fighting vehicles expressly forbidden. The MESS had gone further earlier to ban any arms shipment, but we've modified that to allow the small arms. APCs, tactical aircraft, missiles, etc. will be intercepted and stopped.

Er, the ICTL said no tanks or IFVs. Said nothing about APCs. And we've not shipped him ballistic missiles. Helicopters and light aircraft, yes, but those - bluntly - are dual use.

And keep in mind with the military advisors, if you or Shep have the misguided notion to destroy the Sultanate because of Jihad loonies that are no longer acting with the official sanction of the Sultanate, we would consider that an unprovoked act of war against a sovereign nation. And possibly genocide, depending on just how you plan to "pacify" the Sultanate. And we will respond appropriately.

RACA is not going to set foot in the Sultanate. And genocide? Are you nuts?

Shroom, what you can do, is have a law restricting the export of arms without the express permission of the government, and there must be documentation as to where the sale goes to.

Strictly speaking, the sale was to the IRT. We simply refurbished, updated and resold to Gen. Alexander.

[K. A. Pital]

In a stunning move, I actually decided that Tonkins political course is more fitting for my nation.

Political repercursions will follow, after a while.

[RogueIce]

Do you want to cut out what has been a prosperous trading deal with the IRT, for that matter, for a small country that frankly the MESS should not be effectively protecting? I think the MESS' foreign policy on the issue has been terribly mishandled. You're sticking your necks out for very little gain. The IRT is there for a reason (resources, money) - what's the MESS doing?

Trying to keep a war from breaking out down there, and innocent people getting killed. Especially since it seems that at least a few of the backers seem to be giving their aid with the intent for their chosen side to wipe out their rivals. I don't see that ending well, do you?

Might be a foreign concept to the IRT, working for something other than profits, but that's our policy right now. If you've noticed, we're also working on putting an end to the civil war in the Sultanate.

Given apparent arms shipments from somewhere within the OMSK (just where is unclear at the moment) and the fact a member of the Security Council (Shep) has expressed his desire to "wipe out the jihadists" we're taking a rather dim view of any advanced arms shipments to Terra Libertia.

Yeah it sucks, but there it is. We're trying to maintain some semblence of a balance of power down there. That was one of the major intents behind the ICTL. We make them all have to take some responsibility for any actions in their country. Arming one or two with capabilities the others do not have upsets that balance and makes it more likely one of the factions starts a war down there.

Except that I've been doing a good deal of work in Alexandria, and frankly even for defense he needs more than freaking light arms.

We're trying to keep it limited for just that reason: so nobody has the equipment where they can get the bright idea to take care of their rivals and have a chance to actually do it. Or at least kill a lot of people in a very effective manner.

Er, the ICTL said no tanks or IFVs. Said nothing about APCs. And we've not shipped him ballistic missiles. Helicopters and light aircraft, yes, but those - bluntly - are dual use.

I think you know the intent. As we said to ProTec, hiding behind a strict interpretation of the law would only go so far if something happens down there.

Given what Shep is doing and his previously stated plans to wipe out the Sultanate, do you want to risk getting mixed in with that? Because we know Shep's plan so we're not going to be in a mood to say "well technically it's ok". Especially if you're working with him in shipping arms and we find out IU.

RACA is not going to set foot in the Sultanate. And genocide? Are you nuts?

That was a general statement, and probably more to Shep than anyone else. Unless you think he's just going to sit down nicely and talk with the "jihadists" in his view.

Given that, as I said before, you might not want to work too closely with him or you'll run the risk of being guilty by association. I don't know if you are or if Shep was RPing you without your knowledge, but it's something to keep in mind at least.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Out of universe, neither me nor my wife have anything to do with Ramsley's armament.

Also, my wife dropped playing Ramsley and decided to stick to the Air Marshall which is her true persona.

Anyone who wants to control the Diocese for a while, you're welcome.

As for Saddam, as far as I know this is purely my political line and there are no hidden triggers anywhere in it, I just want to get rid of his existing bioweapons and all facilities. By any means.

Then who gave those BTR-90s? There are only so many producers of that vehicle in this world! I certainly don't use those things!

[K. A. Pital]

Shep did; and I sold them to Shep. Look, it's in his very post.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Shep did; and I sold them to Shep. Look, it's in his very post.

*Sigh* And Shep wants those jihadists dealt with huh.

[phongn]

*Sigh* And Shep wants those jihadists dealt with huh.

If the Sultanate can't get its house in order, it threatens to destabilize the rest of the island, and Alexander is right next door.

[Coyote]

I'm beginning to lean more and more to the "let 'em fight it out" option.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well... I've fixed my internal problems. Goddamn Oliver North.

EDIT:

And what the HELL are you doing, Shep?!

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

*Sigh* And Shep wants those jihadists dealt with huh.

If the Sultanate can't get its house in order, it threatens to destabilize the rest of the island, and Alexander is right next door.

And Alexander is getting his men trained by ProTec. Wow, am I not seeing the downward spiral here?

I'm beginning to lean more and more to the "let 'em fight it out" option.

At this rate, the Base Delta Zero is becoming a better option.

[K. A. Pital]

And Shep wants those jihadists dealt with huh.

I'm not shedding any tears for them either. My nation is absolving itself from responsibility over anything in Libertia.

To be frank, no one did anything about the Jihadists and they managed an attempt at Lonestar.

Everyone is talking about acknowledging the Sultanate's rights to exist, but nothing is done about the Jihad half of their country wages under the generals lead. I can understand Shep's frustration.

But me and Ania will be interacting more closely with Shadow and leave Libertia to it's own affairs.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

And Shep wants those jihadists dealt with huh.

I'm not shedding any tears for them either. My nation is absolving itself from responsibility over anything in Libertia.

To be frank, no one did anything about the Jihadists and they managed an attempt at Lonestar.

Everyone is talking about acknowledging the Sultanate's rights to exist, but nothing is done about the Jihad half of their country wages under the generals lead. I can understand Shep's frustration.

But me and Ania will be interacting more closely with Shadow and leave Libertia to it's own affairs.

I have been working for options to deal with the Jihadists for a while. But fighting proxy wars will only lead to other blowback issues and spark more warfare on that damn island. Mind you, we are dealing with some 10 million people on the Jihadist side alone, and that enough is to swarm a kingdom like myself. Unless everyone agrees to nuke the damn island. [/sarcasm]

[Shroom Man 777]

But me and Ania will be interacting more closely with Shadow and leave Libertia to it's own affairs.

Let it be known that this really frightens me

[RogueIce]

And Shep wants those jihadists dealt with huh.

I'm not shedding any tears for them either. My nation is absolving itself from responsibility over anything in Libertia.

To be frank, no one did anything about the Jihadists and they managed an attempt at Lonestar.

Everyone is talking about acknowledging the Sultanate's rights to exist, but nothing is done about the Jihad half of their country wages under the generals lead. I can understand Shep's frustration.

But me and Ania will be interacting more closely with Shadow and leave Libertia to it's own affairs.

We've managed through ProTec to arrange a temporary cease-fire in their civil war. Further I'm in the process of arranging a conference between both of them very soon. So yes, we are doing something about it.

We also previously got the Sultan himself to rescind the Jihad, which was a start (it ended official state sanction anyway). And rest assured we'll bring up the issue at the conference if it goes off.

But it's unrealistic to expect every single last person in the Sultanate to never ever try and declare some "jihad" on their own, with or without any widespread support. And bombing all of them to the Stone Age is not a good solution, and only invites more people to the jihadist camp.

[K. A. Pital]

The gist is, a realistic war force for Libertia needs to be in the millions if not tens of millions, and such a standing army is beyond any of the warlords or any single nationstate too.

Even if Shepnukistan openly backs someone against the Jihad faction, it would look like Iran Iraq war, bloody and useless with no real progress by either side.

And their standing army is way too small to sustain anything like such a war, just as their economy is.

Let it be known that this really frightens me

Why? He turned to Socialism, so naturally we would be spending time interacting with him.

As for Ramsley, he outlived his usefulness for my nation - I needed a base in Libertia to stage black intel ops from, into Saddamistan. I used his nation to get both human material and a staging base for this operation (actually, much of "Deadman" was Ania's idea too). Ramsley is of no longer use to us both.

[RogueIce]

The gist is, a realistic war force for Libertia needs to be in the millions if not tens of millions, and such a standing army is beyond any of the warlords or any single nationstate too.

Even if Shepnukistan openly backs someone against the Jihad faction, it would look like Iran Iraq war, bloody and useless with no real progress by either side.

And that's just the sort of thing we're trying to prevent. Because advanced arms would just make such a conflict even worse than it otherwise would be.

[RogueIce]

"I am very upset, really. Shinra pays me well to fly in MREs and other time critical items for their own troops, and then turns around and accuses me of arms trafficking."

Fuck you fuck you fuck you Shep.

You had better get your ass in here and declare that to be a bald-faced lie on his part or retract that shit right the fuck now. Given your past history in trying to RP Lonestar I'm not taking it on good faith.

[MKSheppard]

Fuck you fuck you fuck you Shep.

Before you start screaming; I suggest you look at the real Mr. Bout's history. We actually paid him $60 million to fly in supplies into Iraq to support our troops; while at the same time, he was doing shady arms deals for various terrorist groups.

The big problem with tracking Bout was that he had tons of different companies and closed down and opened new ones on a very regular basis; making it hard to keep track of exactly what he owned.

[K. A. Pital]

And that's just the sort of thing we're trying to prevent.

Shepnukistan will ruin itself economically if it tries such a war, and it can only be pulled off if Shep mobilizes the entire economy for total war. He knows it as well as we all do, so I hope nothing beyond a possible Libertian conflict (which, really, could happen even without any of us interacting - remember how me and Ania pressed Ramsley into not attacking Alexander to retaliate for the plane bombings by ProTec? If we weren't there with some goals, he'd attack and voila war).

[RogueIce]

Fuck you fuck you fuck you Shep.

Before you start screaming; I suggest you look at the real Mr. Bout's history. We actually paid him $60 million to fly in supplies into Iraq to support our troops; while at the same time, he was doing shady arms deals for various terrorist groups.

The big problem with tracking Bout was that he had tons of different companies and closed down and opened new ones on a very regular basis; making it hard to keep track of exactly what he owned.

That's nice, but you're assuming we used civilian airlift for any of that. You said Shinra uses it to ferry MREs to our troops? The bulk of our troops have yet to leave our own soil. The only ones who did was the Ranger raid way back in the Astorian hostage crisis. Everything else has been naval deployments, handled through military aircraft. Including those military exercises.

So why the Hell would we have civilian companies ferrying "time critical" supplies to our troops when they have yet to leave our own soil?

[RogueIce]

Shepnukistan will ruin itself economically if it tries such a war, and it can only be pulled off if Shep mobilizes the entire economy for total war. He knows it as well as we all do, so I hope nothing beyond a possible Libertian conflict (which, really, could happen even without any of us interacting - remember how me and Ania pressed Ramsley into not attacking Alexander to retaliate for the plane bombings by ProTec? If we weren't there with some goals, he'd attack and voila war).

I don't know what the Hell Shep plans. For all we know he just wants to have Ramsley go in and kill off the Sultan or something. Which plunges them into war almost certainly.

His arming them and those military advisors make a conflict more likely because Ramsley could well decide he can pull off a war now, especially if he thinks Shepnukistan (and by extension the OMSK) is backing him. Whether or not that turns out to be the case, the end result is the same: a war breaks out and a lot of people start dying.

Yes, war could break out anyway. But his actions are only making it more likely, not the reverse.