Pre-industrial Fantasy STGOD OOC/Rules Thread:

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, we'd have to be certain people wouldn't abuse it to God mode fights. Although really, if a battle occurred on a lay line, and it gave people a power boost, then it would apply to both sides, right? At least as long as they were both using magic, but we could hand wave that and say that the mere presence of that much power gives a boost to even non-magical troops, right? Then it doesn't affect points, but just becomes another bit of colour for the setting.

[Raw Shark]

I was thinking more along the lines of magic train equivalents becoming a thing, with all that entails for strategy, commerce, etc.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, it would address the concerns people had earlier about how long it would take to move units around the map.

[madd0ct0r]

To be honest I was thinking simply in terms of ley lines boosting types of magic since Simon jester included it in a battle (which the weilder lost),

It's not meant to be more than flavour and a extra thing for people to fight over/write about. If people are having trouble starting writing than it's an easy detail to chasr

[The Romulan Republic]

Shouldn't be a problem then.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'd be fine with it, might even make an interesting field of research at the Imperial Academy for my scholars to write about. I can even see it becoming thought of as part of the terrain for battles, both sides trying to get the best position not just in terms of height, light, access, cover etc but the best places to tap ley lines for power.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, that works.

Anyway, sorry I haven't got my next story post up yet. Other things have intervened, and it turned out to be longer than I wanted. Still, should be done soon.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'm in a similar position, though in my case it's more "so many relatives visiting on different days I haven't had a chance to sit down and write yet."

[The Romulan Republic]

Christmas can be busy that way. Hopefully people will have more time to post in the New Year.

[Jub]

I'm still recovering from the post-holiday hangover, but my next post is slowly getting there.

[Simon_Jester]

So due to a variety of circumstances, I decided to pay a premium for Internet. This is one of the things I'm doing with it.

I'm with Simon_Jester with the randomization thing, upon reflection. Dice can be dragged out if both parties are feeling whimsical, but otherwise if the gods screw somebody, somebody else paid for it, is probably the best way to go.

How does everybody feel about unreliable mercenaries? Like if I hired some guys from the Formerly-Cordoban city states to hunt feral vampires on my border or something, should I get a discount for a probability that they'll turn on me for a higher payout? The less I pay, the easier it is to buy them off...

Hm. [thinks]

Many people are making up goofy mercenaries...

Let's go with there being a few city-states in southern Wisconsin that have broadly adopted Ohioan tactical methods, in some cases being better at them than the Ohioans are, although they don't pray as hard and tend to hire actual wizards to protect them against magic.

Both their officers and, in modest numbers, their soldiers, are available for recruitment. Some of them are pretty good.

In terms of reliability... they are about as reliable and helpful as real 17th century mercenaries. How reliable and helpful is that? Do some reading on that era, or better yet read Schlock Mercenary and watch the hilarious convolutions Captain Tagon goes through to get paid twice while employing a horde of violent alien sociopaths. I believe the record was set at "quadruple cross" once...

For comedy, could we gave leylines that follow the existing 2015 rail lines?

I'd rather not do so as a rule. I threw the ley lines in there purely so I could justify having Delatour (who is a smart cookie, but hardly omniscient) reason out the general location of Guillory's home base.

My mental image is that they run in more or less straight lines along the surface of the Earth- whereas real life transportation networks do not. They would provide one of several convenient sources of magical energy to be used by wizards, and therefore are convenient, logical sites to perform difficult magical workings. So they're like a desirable natural resource from the point of view of a wizard, the way 'prime bottomland' is desirable from the point of view of a farmer.

Basically, they won't let normal wizards do anything that much more spectacular than they'd be able to do anyway, but they do make it a lot less of a pain in the ass to accomplish such things quickly and smoothly. And in some cases make it safer (e.g. when you are summoning demons and want a backup generator to power your containment wards in case your concentration slips, which would have helped Guillory a lot more if he hadn't screwed up Geometry 101).

Or that's my headcanon.

Honestly I wouldn't mind if we just decided that ley lines were a thing that exist in Michigan and not anywhere else, or for whatever other reason don't come up very often. I'm just trying to create an interesting fantasy setting for my own characters to play in, and having magical terrain features that empower geomancy and whatnot is a part of that to me.

Sure, it's funny, but does super high mojo along all the best shipping routes that everybody will find a way to exploit reflect what this setting is going for, in terms of aesthetic, time scale, etc?

I'm going to go with "no."

Sorry that I'm behind on writing, also. This is the most stressful week of my year, and I've come to the realization that I need to do a lot more reading about Aztec history and Mexico to not sound like a dipshit here.

Or you could just be extra-hilarious AND a dipshit and we could have fun anyway. Your call, man.

Well, we'd have to be certain people wouldn't abuse it to God mode fights. Although really, if a battle occurred on a lay line, and it gave people a power boost, then it would apply to both sides, right? At least as long as they were both using magic, but we could hand wave that and say that the mere presence of that much power gives a boost to even non-magical troops, right? Then it doesn't affect points, but just becomes another bit of colour for the setting.

Honestly, I think they're already a bit of color, and we shouldn't even let them interfere with "points are points are points."

Because even in my portrayal, the ley lines aren't very good for abuse. They exist only in specific locations, which are largely uncorrelated to the location of anything but ley lines and places explicitly created by wizards to exploit them. Ley lines tend to run through swamps, hills, kudzu thickets, and so on, with complete indifference for human convenience or lack thereof. A lot of ley lines intersect halfway up a rugged mountainside, or in the middle of a lake, or in the middle of a valley several hundred feet in the air, between two peaks, or somewhere awkward like that.

And, again, they mainly serve to make it easier and safer to perform major wizardry. But I'd argue they're just another kind of terrain and don't necessarily make wizards 'better,' anymore than the presence of deep forests in your territories makes skirmishers 'better.' It makes them situationally better because they are naturally suited to operating in conditions that are present in some parts of your nation, but it doesn't make them situationally better in all times and all places. Or even in most times and places.

Plus, assuming ley lines are actually found all over the place, they sort of cancel themselves out. Any wizard with good sense and the luxury of choosing his own places to do his work would probably site himself on a ley line, just as he would probably remember to wear pants (or robes, or whatever). We could easily assume by default that powerful magical centers are located on one or more ley lines, and that is precisely why they are powerful, with godlike feats of high wizardry potentially even warping the existing ley lines of the Earth itself to accomodate the creation of great places of magic.

Well, it would address the concerns people had earlier about how long it would take to move units around the map.

Why would we even want to address those concerns?

I would love it if this game stretches out over several years of in-game time. It's good for character development, it's good for having time to build and create things rather than just swiftly destroy things. Because while creation is often more interesting than destruction, it is also more time-consuming.

To be honest I was thinking simply in terms of ley lines boosting types of magic since Simon jester included it in a battle (which the weilder lost).

Don't assume that battle is over by any means, though.

Guillory just lost everything he has, by committing one of the classic wizardly blunders. Several, in fact; he violated Evil Overlord List entries #22, #28, #35, #48, arguably #57, definitely #63, and for all practical purposes #86. And that's without even looking at entries 100-250.

But anyone with sense would rather fight half a dozen Guillories than tangle with an entity like Xazonar. Xazonar has very few weaknesses and an awful lot of powers.

[Simon_Jester]

Oh, Esquire, if we ever get access to editing our posts...

Honestly I would halve the number of artillery guns in your order of battle while increasing their point value. Unless it is a plot point that the units in question have a ridiculous ahistorical shitload of artillery. Historical levels for artillery in the age of blackpowder warfare tended to be on the order of 3-6 guns per 1000 soldiers.

I don't have a complaint with the way things are, since this IS a fantasy setting, but basically what it comes down to in this era is that artillery is not normally attached at the company level, nor are there enough guns to have one gun per infantry company or cavalry squadron. Artillery requires very large amounts of logistical support and wagon trains.

For instance, a four-gun Ohioan field battery would be accompanied by something like, oh...

"A cart of tools drawn by four horses, three carts of powder, eight carts each carrying fifty round-shot, ten cartridges and six packs of wicks, five carts each carrying powder and three barrels of lead... For a battery of four guns with its carts 118 horses in all were used- when they were available- and these horses were all for draught; none of them being for riding purposes."

Everything I just said is taken directly from a book about military history and the campaigns of a prominent general who lived and fought during the reign of Louis XIV.

You might scale those figures down a bit because typical Ohioan field batteries use four-pounders whose powder and shot is lighter than Louis XIV's six-pounders, but that still gives you a sense of scale. It's not just a question of the guns themselves, it's all the stuff you have to carry in order for them to fight effectively as artillery that can fire, and keep up sustained fire for a long time in situations like sieges or pitched field battles.

IMPORTANT NOTE:

I am not saying anyone's actions are lame or dumb or anything, or telling people they can't play how they want. But knowing what I know... let's just say that Ohioan infantry and cavalry are going to have a ratio of around four or five guns per 1000 soldiers, and the logistical requirements associated with artillery will not be downplayed.

[Simon_Jester]

Sorry for the multiple posts in this thread but no one else has said anything...

Anyway, putting up another chapter. There are more still part-done, but it may take a while to get any of them out, so I may not get the chance for a few days. We'll see.

If anyone has questions I would be happy to field them; I have orders of battle for this fight roughed out. I even came up with a troop type more useless than Raw Shark's bread helmets!

I give you... the Freezer-Burned Zombie!

On which note, Raw Shark, I liked the post. Very good illustration of the weirdness of a society where your gods just randomly drop by.

[Raw Shark]

If anyone has questions I would be happy to field them; I have orders of battle for this fight roughed out. I even came up with a troop type more useless than Raw Shark's bread helmets!

I give you... the Freezer-Burned Zombie!

On which note, Raw Shark, I liked the post. Very good illustration of the weirdness of a society where your gods just randomly drop by.

Thanks! I could probably benefit from a few examples of what people are thinking of for points compared to specific narratives, while I work on my own order of battle.

Regarding the ley line thing, I'd prefer to avoid rapid overland transportation. It's not very pre-1800, and more than a few of us have already built our factions around the assumption that it's a slow pain in the ass. We've got at least two nations where rivers are a huge deal, at least four with a major stake in the ocean, Jub has his long tri-annual slave marches to Tarn, and I was kind of assuming that any forces I committed to the South are more or less stuck there unless somebody tries a major landing on the Yucatan peninsula.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I am pondering my next story post, I shall probably cook up something with maddoctor about his trading mission soon, but something more....hmm, I think I shall visit the Imperial Academy for a post, then maybe back to sea.

Though frankly,I would like to feature my Army in a land battle soonish, but I've no idea how to go about it.

[Esquire]

Re: artillery counts - All good points, Simon. I'm certainly not going to pretend that my numbers are what they are for any reasons besides ease of math and the fact that I liked the phrase "two-fisted batteries." That said, in a world with dragons, animated totems, and vampire wizards, ahistorically numerous cannon might make sense. The traditional hordes of poorly-trained peasants aren't useful anymore, so maybe the Ottomans used those resources to fund an expanded artillery corps and the logistics to support it?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I tihnk you can get away with more artillery than would be historically accurate, but there is a limit. For instance, Orion is probably the most artillery-happy nation at present thanks to our Technomancy, and even we stick to five guns per thousand men. There are good reasons that Simon explained to me earlier as to why having so many guns is ill-advised (in my early draft I had ten guns per thousand men, enough for one gun per company of troops with some spare) that I think hold true even in the fantasy setting.

Having said that, Orion guns are still available for sale on a case-by-case basis

[Eternal_Freedom]

Random comment: as has become customary for me at new year's I went outside with a glass of scotch to see the stars (nice clear night here, hooray) and listen to the church bells chime. Coincidentally, I step out of the back door and the first thing I see is Orion rising majestically in the night sky. I'm calling that a good omen for my nation's chances in this game

[Simon_Jester]

I tihnk you can get away with more artillery than would be historically accurate, but there is a limit. For instance, Orion is probably the most artillery-happy nation at present thanks to our Technomancy, and even we stick to five guns per thousand men.

That said, they are really fucking big guns. Even with weight-reducing magic, that doesn't do anything to diminish the sheer physical bulk of the powder and shot required, or to decrease the need for tools and other supply wagons. So a nation which uses (much) smaller field artillery would probably be able to field more numerous guns for the same logistical burden.

Also, the Ottomans do have a long history of artillery-happiness, it being an area they excelled in at the time they were brought to this continent.

[Eternal_Freedom]

So whilst I might limit myself to twenty-five 18 and 36 pdr guns per Regiment, he might be able, for the same points cost, to bring, say, fifty or sixty guns that are maybe 6 or 12 pdr weapons?

[Simon_Jester]

Thanks! I could probably benefit from a few examples of what people are thinking of for points compared to specific narratives, while I work on my own order of battle.

Well, the troop types fielded by the Ohioans in the skirmish of Frostbringer 11 (and I reserve the right to tinker this slightly) are:

Ohioan tercio pike (1.5 pts/man, eighteen-foot pike, substantial body armor)
Ohioan tercio shot (1.5 pts/man, flintlock and bayonet, buff coat)
Kaskaskian plains horse (1.5 pts/man, lance, sabre, and pistol)
Ohioan 4pdr field artillery (15 pts per gun, ancillary supports counted as part of point value)

Normally, the regiment of Fayette has eleven infantry companies of varying size, "about 100" but not exactly.

The center is customarily held by one BIG pike company (under Captain Gerard) flanked by two ordinary companies of musketeers in his center. Then come the two demi-batteries of four-pounders, followed by the two flanking battalions each with two pike and two shot companies. Delatour commands one of the musket companies on the left).

Marching against Guillory, Blanchard left two companies of his right battalion at the camp, leaving him with nine companies, four pike and five shot. The musket company left in camp was diminished considerably by the removal of a musket platoon as reserve.

So the line of battle would look like:

LEFT WING CAVALRY
107 Kaskaskian plains horse

LEFT BATTALION
10th Company (shot)
9th Company (pike)
8th Company (shot, Cpt. Henri Delatour, commanding)
11th Company (pike)

LEFT DEMI-BATTERIE
3 4pdr field guns

CENTER BATTALION
6th Company (shot, small)
5th Company (pike, large, Gerard)
7th Company (shot, small)

RIGHT DEMI-BATTERIE
3 4pdr field guns

RIGHT BATTALION
1st Company (pike)
2nd Company (shot, large)

RIGHT WING CAVALRY (Chief Shoots-Across-Canyon, commanding)
119 Kaskaskian plains horse

RESERVE
~40 shot from 4th Company

The total combat strength of the formation is thus:

(about 1000 + 40)*1.5 = 1560 points foot
226*1.5 = 339 points cavalry
15*6 = 90 points artillery

Total is thus a little south of 2000 points.
_______________________

By contrast, the order of battle at dawn was:

Marc Guillory, former Mage of the Fourth Circle (50 points)

Guillory's Tower (fixed defenses, 150 points)

100 Freezer-Burned Zombies (0.1 points per blob of brains-craving ice crystals)

800 Drudge Zombies (0.2 points per shambler)

100 Imp-Possessed Zombies (0.4 points per demon-shambler)

410 Point Total

Half an hour or so after dawn it was:

Xazonar the Shadow-Lord, Greater Daemon of the Eighth Plane (666 points)

800 Beasts of Bogazdan (1.2 point per hellhound)

1666 Point Total

Xazonar is one tough motherfucker, or would be if shadow-lords had any concept of 'gender.' Its point values can be pretty effectively contributed to anything because of its magical abilities, and as we've observed it has the ability to summon other troops up to (deliberately vague) limits.

As of the end of my latest post, the Regiment du Fayette has already lost 28 cavalrymen (twelve murdered by Guillory and fourteen more incapacitated or killed by hellhounds), and 65 soldiers killed or incapacitated by wounds. There are probably a lot of 'casualties' who are still walking wounded, too.

In exchange, they have killed roughly 200 hellhounds and scattered that force, and have managed to inflict about two or three bruises' worth of injury on Xazonar. By clonking it with massive rocks. Now they're out of massive rocks.

[Esquire]

Also, the Ottomans do have a long history of artillery-happiness, it being an area they excelled in at the time they were brought to this continent.

That's sort of what I was thinking. The OTL Ottomans were casting things like the Dardanelles Gun, which weighed over 18 tons; imagine those resources, plus those whicj went to fielding a hundred thousand irregular swordsmen used for a lot of guns of a more reasonable caliber. We win infantry fights on quality and artillery fights on quantity.

[Eternal_Freedom]

And now at some point I want to write a battle scene between an Ottoman regiment and an Orion one, purely for the epic artillery duel it will be

[Esquire]

Illusion-based wargaming could be a thing. ☺

[Simon_Jester]

Cool description, Zwinmar. So, you have waypoints for travelers every, oh, "quarter day's ride" sounds like 7-10 miles, with a larger fortification housing a company-strength infantry force and a cavalry platoon every 30-40 miles. Roughly 150 orcs under arms per 1000 to 1500 square miles... that's a plausible ratio of force to space assuming your territory isn't completely nuts in total land area, actually.