StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Regarding the poor little orphan Oliver Twist slave kids - all that was presumably going on under the Republic as even the magic new Empire-out-of-nowhere couldn't institute a new social system in days. Hell, the Old Republic including the Jedi order were explicitly turning a blind eye to child slavery in the prequels. There has never been any indication that the rebellion/Leia's 'resistance' paramilitary was in the least bit interested in changing that. Those kids have absolutely no reason to take hope from or be inspired by anything that happened in this film.

In fact it would have been more accurate for those kids to be inspired and hopeful that the First Order was coming to sweep the old corrupt system away and deliver them to a new land of milk and honey.

FedRebel wrote: 2017-12-29 03:27pm That critical act of non-communication has handed the galaxy over to The Resurgent Galactic Empire on a golden platter.

Or, Poe's lack of respect for the chain of command. Twice.

In most real world guerilla operations he would be dead with a bullet in the back of his head after the first time he ignored an order and got his whole command killed.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-30 04:23am

FedRebel wrote: 2017-12-29 03:27pm That critical act of non-communication has handed the galaxy over to The Resurgent Galactic Empire on a golden platter.

Or, Poe's lack of respect for the chain of command. Twice.

In most real world guerilla operations he would be dead with a bullet in the back of his head after the first time he ignored an order and got his whole command killed.

It is possible for them both to be wrong.

Poe was more wrong but Holdo was shit in the leadership department. Throwing out vague platitudes rather than actually reassurance.

Crazedwraith wrote: 2017-12-30 04:33am

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-30 04:23am

FedRebel wrote: 2017-12-29 03:27pm That critical act of non-communication has handed the galaxy over to The Resurgent Galactic Empire on a golden platter.

Or, Poe's lack of respect for the chain of command. Twice.

In most real world guerilla operations he would be dead with a bullet in the back of his head after the first time he ignored an order and got his whole command killed.

It is possible for them both to be wrong.

Poe was more wrong but Holdo was shit in the leadership department. Throwing out vague platitudes rather than actually reassurance.

Right, but Holdo was dealing with a situation that relied on OpSec and had absolutely no reason to indulge Poe's childish need to be involved in planning operations above his pay grade (He was the wing commander of a starfighter group he just got most of killed through insubordination and incompetent command whose starfighters had just been blown up, he is the last person you want involved in planning anything).

And if Poe wasn't a loose cannon dipshit with no respect for the chain of command Holdo would have gotten the Resistance out clean with the First Order assuming them all dead.

The only reason Poe isn't dead on the salt of Crait with a blaster bolt in his back is because the Resistance are "the good guys" and apparently good guys don't rid themselves of massive liabilities in Star Wars.

streetad wrote: 2017-12-30 03:54am Regarding the poor little orphan Oliver Twist slave kids - all that was presumably going on under the Republic as even the magic new Empire-out-of-nowhere couldn't institute a new social system in days. Hell, the Old Republic including the Jedi order were explicitly turning a blind eye to child slavery in the prequels. There has never been any indication that the rebellion/Leia's 'resistance' paramilitary was in the least bit interested in changing that. Those kids have absolutely no reason to take hope from or be inspired by anything that happened in this film.

Republic (EDIT in the prequels) didn't tolerate slavery, but at the same time joining the Republic was voluntary. Tatooine wasn't a part of the Republic.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-30 04:52am

Crazedwraith wrote: 2017-12-30 04:33am

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-30 04:23am

Or, Poe's lack of respect for the chain of command. Twice.

In most real world guerilla operations he would be dead with a bullet in the back of his head after the first time he ignored an order and got his whole command killed.

It is possible for them both to be wrong.

Poe was more wrong but Holdo was shit in the leadership department. Throwing out vague platitudes rather than actually reassurance.

Right, but Holdo was dealing with a situation that relied on OpSec and had absolutely no reason to indulge Poe's childish need to be involved in planning operations above his pay grade (He was the wing commander of a starfighter group he just got most of killed through insubordination and incompetent command whose starfighters had just been blown up, he is the last person you want involved in planning anything).

And if Poe wasn't a loose cannon dipshit with no respect for the chain of command Holdo would have gotten the Resistance out clean with the First Order assuming them all dead.

The only reason Poe isn't dead on the salt of Crait with a blaster bolt in his back is because the Resistance are "the good guys" and apparently good guys don't rid themselves of massive liabilities in Star Wars

Just as Holdo you do not grasp the concept of morale.

In a desperate situation like this you don't tell people asking for a plan "I have hope".

Although I agree that it is stupid that Poe, Finn, Rose, and the rest of the mutiny won't face any consequences.

eMeM wrote: 2017-12-30 05:20am

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-30 04:52am

Crazedwraith wrote: 2017-12-30 04:33am

It is possible for them both to be wrong.

Poe was more wrong but Holdo was shit in the leadership department. Throwing out vague platitudes rather than actually reassurance.

Right, but Holdo was dealing with a situation that relied on OpSec and had absolutely no reason to indulge Poe's childish need to be involved in planning operations above his pay grade (He was the wing commander of a starfighter group he just got most of killed through insubordination and incompetent command whose starfighters had just been blown up, he is the last person you want involved in planning anything).

And if Poe wasn't a loose cannon dipshit with no respect for the chain of command Holdo would have gotten the Resistance out clean with the First Order assuming them all dead.

The only reason Poe isn't dead on the salt of Crait with a blaster bolt in his back is because the Resistance are "the good guys" and apparently good guys don't rid themselves of massive liabilities in Star Wars

Just as Holdo you do not grasp the concept of morale.

In a desperate situation like this you don't tell people asking for a plan "I have hope".

Although I agree that it is stupid that Poe, Finn, Rose, and the rest of the mutiny won't face any consequences.

No, what you do is very firmly put people actively trying to erode morale by questioning command decisions above their pay grade back in their box.

There is no version of this where Poe should have been told things. Hell, the moment he finds out what the plan is that is when he launches his mutiny accusing Holdo of cowardice because he's a dipshit who thinks that spending lives (other than his own) to blow things up represents "victory".

Do you think he would have acted differently if he did know the plan? No, he wouldn't because he didn't like the plan when he did find out because as we've previously seen he doesn't respect the chain of command.

And what he does when he knows the plan is blab it to other people who not only don't need to know but are just about to head into enemy territory on a high risk mission where they may be captured by people who can read minds.

Poe Dameron belonged out of the loop, he's an intel risk. He belonged in the brig.

I think you are being unfair to Poe. When he found there was a plan and it was sound he was fine with it and realise he was wrong. He was against the apparent plan before because it seemed it was throwing away lives for no purpose.

He was right about the shuttle vulnerabillity if the first order had settled for a mass fighter attack they would have been wiped out.

Holdo also takes a hell of a long time making her move to protect the shuttles.

Poe's plan at the start was tactically sound but strategically unwise. He took out a dreadnought with a fighter force and very little planning time. A dreadnought for a few bombers is a good trade if all other factors are equal.

Disobeying Leia should have got him more punishment. Leia and Holdo settled for a half measure of a meaningless demotion. Either take Poe into confidence or brig him the inbetween measures did them no good.

If OpSec is a concern the film could have made it more clear. It would be easy to have a few lines to indivate Holdo doesnt beleive in hyperspace tracking and thinks there is a spy or beacon on board. (Like say the one Leia had which was weird) they could have made need to know and ironic echo on Poe's part.

Crazedwraith wrote: 2017-12-30 07:32am I think you are being unfair to Poe. When he found there was a plan and it was sound he was fine with it and realise he was wrong. He was against the apparent plan before because it seemed it was throwing away lives for no purpose.

No? When he finds out the transports are being fuelled and Holdo is planning to abandon the cruiser that's when he mutinies. Because he has no respect for his commander and he thinks that a plan where you don't attack the enemy somehow is "cowardice".

He was right about the shuttle vulnerabillity if the first order had settled for a mass fighter attack they would have been wiped out.

They were wiped out, because Poe blabbed the plan. The plan was about secrecy, escaping in radar cloaked transports whilst the First Order concentrated on the Big Dumb Object.

Poe's plan at the start was tactically sound but strategically unwise. He took out a dreadnought with a fighter force and very little planning time. A dreadnought for a few bombers is a good trade if all other factors are equal.

Other factors weren't equal though. Spending 100% of a capability to slightly degrade your opponent's capabilities is how you lose. Poe was ordered not to make that strike because it was tactically irrelevant (the Resistance could now leave), and strategically idiotic (the First Order has other dreadnoughts), but he did it anyway. If he hadn't the Resistance probably would have left before Snoke's ship arrives (which it does just as the Dreadnought is blown up).

Disobeying Leia should have got him more punishment. Leia and Holdo settled for a half measure of a meaningless demotion. Either take Poe into confidence or brig him the inbetween measures did them no good.

Right, but that's Poe's fault for being a dipshit who has no respect for the chain of command. There's no reason to take him into confidence and very good reasons for not doing so which are validated by his actions when he does find out.

streetad wrote: 2017-12-30 03:54am Regarding the poor little orphan Oliver Twist slave kids - all that was presumably going on under the Republic as even the magic new Empire-out-of-nowhere couldn't institute a new social system in days. Hell, the Old Republic including the Jedi order were explicitly turning a blind eye to child slavery in the prequels. There has never been any indication that the rebellion/Leia's 'resistance' paramilitary was in the least bit interested in changing that. Those kids have absolutely no reason to take hope from or be inspired by anything that happened in this film.

Tie in materials claim that Canto Bight is in the Corporate Sector, which is back in from the EU. So the New Republic did not rule it at any point.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-30 07:58am

Crazedwraith wrote: 2017-12-30 07:32am I think you are being unfair to Poe. When he found there was a plan and it was sound he was fine with it and realise he was wrong. He was against the apparent plan before because it seemed it was throwing away lives for no purpose.

No? When he finds out the transports are being fuelled and Holdo is planning to abandon the cruiser that's when he mutinies. Because he has no respect for his commander and he thinks that a plan where you don't attack the enemy somehow is "cowardice".

That was before he knew the shuttles had somewhere to go to or that where cloaked. When Leia points out the planet and what the plan is he gets it. [/quote]

His plan is not to attack the enemy either not just for the sake of it. He wanted effective ftl running not apparently pointless STL.

He was right about the shuttle vulnerabillity if the first order had settled for a mass fighter attack they would have been wiped out.

They were wiped out, because Poe blabbed the plan. The plan was about secrecy, escaping in radar cloaked transports whilst the First Order concentrated on the Big Dumb Object. [\quote]

Yes. Though he had no idea the trustworthiness of Finn's hacker.

If Poe had been told early enough that wouldnt have taken place.

Other factors weren't equal though. Spending 100% of a capability to slightly degrade your opponent's capabilities is how you lose. Poe was ordered not to make that strike because it was tactically irrelevant (the Resistance could now leave), and strategically idiotic (the First Order has other dreadnoughts), but he did it anyway. If he hadn't the Resistance probably would have left before Snoke's ship arrives (which it does just as the Dreadnought is blown up).[\quote]

Yes I do agree. Though out of universe its unclear how big a deal that dreadnought is should be. If its the only orbital bombardment, fleet insta killer they have taking it out would be a blow akin to taking out to the DS.

We dont know they have other dreadnoughts afaik but leia's orders and the size of the FO fleet and the mega class certainly imply it.



Right, but that's Poe's fault for being a dipshit who has no respect for the chain of command. There's no reason to take him into confidence and very good reasons for not doing so which are validated by his actions when he does find out.

But part of being a good commander is knowing your subordinates. They know Poe's a dipshit who'll do his own thing. Don't give him means and motive to be a dipshit. Holdo is in ultimate command and bears ultimate responsibiity.

Again if they'd taken him into confidence from the start he'd never have blabbed.

Sorry can't seem to unfuck those quote tags.

Crazedwraith wrote: 2017-12-30 08:15am But part of being a good commander is knowing your subordinates. They know Poe's a dipshit who'll do his own thing. Don't give him means and motive to be a dipshit. Holdo is in ultimate command and bears ultimate responsibiity.

Again if they'd taken him into confidence from the start he'd never have blabbed.

If they'd locked him in the brig pending court martial he wouldn't have either, and it would have been rightly deserved for him ignoring orders and getting his whole command killed.

You're still falling for the movie's trick of putting you in Poe's perspective in those scenes. Absolutely nothing absolves him of responsibility for his actions, he didn't need to know the plan and telling every tom dick and harry that wanders into the command centre what a military plan is just because they look a bit sad not knowing is how you blow it wide open.

When the problem is that you've indulged a subordinate too much the answer is not indulging them more.

Yes. Though he had no idea the trustworthiness of Finn's hacker.

No, but he knows he's sending people into a ship run by people who can read minds. The trustworthiness of a third party (which should have been assumed to be not) is irrelevant. Even just by telling Finn he risked that information being taken from him.

Aside from suspecting leaks and being turned off by Poe's crap... What if Holdo and the rest of her clique actually hadn't figured out the cloaking trick at the first stages, when the speeches were made? What if they MacGuyvered that some time later?

Leia didn't tell Poe, Leia demoted Poe, so... Holdo just went with that.

NecronLord wrote: 2017-12-30 07:59am
Tie in materials claim that Canto Bight is in the Corporate Sector, which is back in from the EU. So the New Republic did not rule it at any point.

Fair enough.

I still think if we are trying to say something about the real world it would be those exact kids who would be welcoming the First Order with open arms as purveyors of false hope. What has the Rebellion/Republic ever done for them anyway?

The slaves were clearly tuned into galactic popular culture, so perhaps they drew a continuation between the Empire and the First Order, as well as one between the Rebellion/Resistance/Republics.

streetad wrote: 2017-12-30 09:25amWhat has the Rebellion/Republic ever done for them anyway?

Exist as a beacon of hope.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-30 08:30am

Crazedwraith wrote: 2017-12-30 08:15am But part of being a good commander is knowing your subordinates. They know Poe's a dipshit who'll do his own thing. Don't give him means and motive to be a dipshit. Holdo is in ultimate command and bears ultimate responsibiity.

Again if they'd taken him into confidence from the start he'd never have blabbed.

If they'd locked him in the brig pending court martial he wouldn't have either, and it would have been rightly deserved for him ignoring orders and getting his whole command killed.

You're still falling for the movie's trick of putting you in Poe's perspective in those scenes. Absolutely nothing absolves him of responsibility for his actions, he didn't need to know the plan and telling every tom dick and harry that wanders into the command centre what a military plan is just because they look a bit sad not knowing is how you blow it wide open.

When the problem is that you've indulged a subordinate too much the answer is not indulging them more.

Dude, I've already agreed he should have been brigged and that he's a dipshit. His arc is learning to be less of a dipshit. I've agreed with you time and again, that although I see more mitigating factors than you, Poe's a dipshit and mutinied and that's bad.

But Holdo's also a bad leader and basically as far we know only followed Leia's lead and plan. That doesn't excuse Poe's shittiness but neither does Poe's shittiness absolve her of her shittiness. (which I originally said is much less than Poe's I do agree.)

I feel like they're opposites. Poe's a good leader and a bad officer, Holdo's bad leader but a good officer. I think mostly what I disagree with you on is your portrayal of Poe as glory hound only out for himself. Poe clearly cares about the resistance and his fellow pilots in that order but he's kind of crap at seeing the big picture and at proper military subordination.

Given the resistance set up it's hardly surprising. They get true believers in the cause, not super trained, disciplined military.

Yes. Though he had no idea the trustworthiness of Finn's hacker.

No, but he knows he's sending people into a ship run by people who can read minds. The trustworthiness of a third party (which should have been assumed to be not) is irrelevant. Even just by telling Finn he risked that information being taken from him.

True enough but the time /interest of mind readers is not exactly a high percentage risk, especially in the amount of time they had left in the battle. I can't remember if Poe actually needed to tell him the plan especially the detail about the cloaked shuttles. He should have said more than bug out and meet us on the planet.

-

Tangential thought; but if all you need to find cloaked shuttles is to know to look for them, why were they not looking already? The FO had enough ships there that taking on off just to scan on different wavebands for cloaked ships should have been possible.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-30 08:30am

Crazedwraith wrote: 2017-12-30 08:15am But part of being a good commander is knowing your subordinates. They know Poe's a dipshit who'll do his own thing. Don't give him means and motive to be a dipshit. Holdo is in ultimate command and bears ultimate responsibiity.

Again if they'd taken him into confidence from the start he'd never have blabbed.

If they'd locked him in the brig pending court martial he wouldn't have either, and it would have been rightly deserved for him ignoring orders and getting his whole command killed.

You're still falling for the movie's trick of putting you in Poe's perspective in those scenes. Absolutely nothing absolves him of responsibility for his actions, he didn't need to know the plan and telling every tom dick and harry that wanders into the command centre what a military plan is just because they look a bit sad not knowing is how you blow it wide open.

When the problem is that you've indulged a subordinate too much the answer is not indulging them more.

Yes. Though he had no idea the trustworthiness of Finn's hacker.

No, but he knows he's sending people into a ship run by people who can read minds. The trustworthiness of a third party (which should have been assumed to be not) is irrelevant. Even just by telling Finn he risked that information being taken from him.

And it still would have needlessly sacrificed all their capital ships when they had over a day to immediately hyperdrive to somewhere better while also calling for help. Your response is that they should have wasted those people and resources anyway, because it's part of Holdo's super secret hidden plan. But she has crew running for escape pods and staging mutinies against her. After a certain point, morale must be taken into consideration if you don't want to be shot as a traitor against the cause.

Vympel wrote: 2017-12-29 07:17pm I don't think it does. What about RotJ's ending would lead us to believe that Luke would be an amazing Jedi master who would never make a terrible mistake, suffer a terrible reverse, and sink into a funk? He was a young man saddled with the responsibility of training and incredibly powerful apprentice, and he fucked it up. Worse, it was his own nephew. This is not something he ever dealt with before. He had no measure of responsibility for Darth Vader's fall. Luke dying, pleading for his life wasn't going to turn Ben's heart as it did Vader.

https://www.avclub.com/this-is-not-goin ... 1821472840

Another dumb take from the Gawkerverse. Vympel, do yourself a favor and stop reading that crap. Star Wars is fiction, not real life. So it doesn't need to abide by the laws of thermodynamics where everything eventually runs down any more than it needs to abide by other natural laws (like sound in space).

I brought up Robin and Marian earlier because that movie handled this sort of thing much better. Robin Hood tales always carried a kind of implied sad ending because everyone knew that even in a fanciful version of feudal England, whatever victories Robin and his Merry Men won would be fleeting because those mail-fisted kings and lords weren't going away anytime soon, no matter how many thuggish tax collectors and bullying knights got shot in Sherwood Forest. Even though Robin and Marian is a much better movie, it still pissed off quite a few people who didn't want to see the heroes come across as has-beens with nothing to show for their efforts. But at least that exercise in well-made cinema masochism was only an hour and forty-five minutes long. Disney Star Wars has inflicted almost five hours of this nonsense, with at least two more hours to go.

Fuck that.

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-30 12:48pm And it still would have needlessly sacrificed all their capital ships when they had over a day to immediately hyperdrive to somewhere better while also calling for help. Your response is that they should have wasted those people and resources anyway, because it's part of Holdo's super secret hidden plan. But she has crew running for escape pods and staging mutinies against her. After a certain point, morale must be taken into consideration if you don't want to be shot as a traitor against the cause.

They know they're being tracked, they have enough fuel for one jump. How are they going to hyperdrive somehwere better?


The Resistance' fleet is a non-asset now, they can't use it for anything any more. They can't even challenge a single Star Destroyer to open battle with any expectation of success. The people on the ships are far more valuable because they can move among populations and foment rebellion on a far larger scale than the current Resistance. Actually acting like a resistance force, hiding among the population, fighting an asymmetric war, etc.

But Poe got them all killed.

Elfdart wrote: 2017-12-30 01:03pmAnother dumb take from the Gawkerverse. Vympel, do yourself a favor and stop reading that crap.

The AV Club is a publication of The Onion, so unless Gawker bought them it's not Gawkerverse.

At any rate, they could hyperdrive somewhere better by going to, I don't know, Corellia. Unless the contention is really that every single warship not under the command of the First Order was at Hosnian and D'Qar, there are plenty of places to go where they'd find heavy-hitting help that wouldn't care overmuch for Snoke's fan club.

Rogue 9 wrote: 2017-12-30 01:20pm

Elfdart wrote: 2017-12-30 01:03pmAnother dumb take from the Gawkerverse. Vympel, do yourself a favor and stop reading that crap.

The AV Club is a publication of The Onion, so unless Gawker bought them it's not Gawkerverse.

At any rate, they could hyperdrive somewhere better by going to, I don't know, Corellia. Unless the contention is really that every single warship not under the command of the First Order was at Hosnian and D'Qar, there are plenty of places to go where they'd find heavy-hitting help that wouldn't care overmuch for Snoke's fan club.

Yeah, it's explicit that the Republic fleet is gone.

The Resistance has no armed support, there's nowhere to run to where anyone will fight for them. All running to somewhere like Corellia would get them is an audience to watch them die.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-30 01:27pm

Rogue 9 wrote: 2017-12-30 01:20pm

Elfdart wrote: 2017-12-30 01:03pmAnother dumb take from the Gawkerverse. Vympel, do yourself a favor and stop reading that crap.

The AV Club is a publication of The Onion, so unless Gawker bought them it's not Gawkerverse.

At any rate, they could hyperdrive somewhere better by going to, I don't know, Corellia. Unless the contention is really that every single warship not under the command of the First Order was at Hosnian and D'Qar, there are plenty of places to go where they'd find heavy-hitting help that wouldn't care overmuch for Snoke's fan club.

Yeah, it's explicit that the Republic fleet is gone.

The Resistance has no armed support, there's nowhere to run to where anyone will fight for them. All running to somewhere like Corellia would get them is an audience to watch them die.

Then who were they expecting to bail them out? Who were they running to communicate with? They clearly thought at the end someone other than Luke would come and rescue them at the end. They 'had allies all thorough out the outer rim' explicitly.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-30 01:17pm

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-30 12:48pm And it still would have needlessly sacrificed all their capital ships when they had over a day to immediately hyperdrive to somewhere better while also calling for help. Your response is that they should have wasted those people and resources anyway, because it's part of Holdo's super secret hidden plan. But she has crew running for escape pods and staging mutinies against her. After a certain point, morale must be taken into consideration if you don't want to be shot as a traitor against the cause.

They know they're being tracked, they have enough fuel for one jump. How are they going to hyperdrive somehwere better?


The Resistance' fleet is a non-asset now, they can't use it for anything any more. They can't even challenge a single Star Destroyer to open battle with any expectation of success. The people on the ships are far more valuable because they can move among populations and foment rebellion on a far larger scale than the current Resistance. Actually acting like a resistance force, hiding among the population, fighting an asymmetric war, etc.

But Poe got them all killed.

What Rogue 9 said. Take the flotilla to Corellia, Mon Calamari, Naboo, or any of a dozen other planets that they would have friends at, and make a stand there. Either the First Order has to commit resources to bring reinforcements and weaken themselves elsewhere, the First Order loses a fleet due to being outgunned, or they run away to fight another day, and the Resistance can then take their time figuring out what to do about being tracked.

Or, if Every Single Ally is off the table, as I said before, run to a more advantageous battleground and bleed the First Order as you figure out the tracking problem while not losing irreplaceable ships and people simply due to lack of fuel.