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Oh, and I see little to no reason to believe your version of events over that of the Dracos without proof. Let's have a transcription, preferably a direct recording, of the proceedings if you're so sure.

If someone can leak informmation on myy shipping routes, and then nab my vessels mid flight, with my ever changing shipping, essentally grabbing a god-modded freebie at my expense, then guess what? I can leak them information. It doesnt matter which one they grab, suffice to say that that time, their info was not reliable.

However, if you want a shitload more detail, I can delete that post, and do so again.

Rogue 9 wrote:Do you not see that the convoy I leaked was real enough, and the pirates would either try to intercept it or have it get through with loads of war materiel for the Dracos? It wasn't empty information. The pirates would be able to corroborate the convoy's existence plenty of times over as it formed up at Verling Station and jumped out along the same vector that had been leaked. Much as I hate to bring this to everyone's attention, Verling's not that hard to get observers into on legitimate freighters to take a look at other shipping. So, the pirates can not attack the convoy, in which case it gets through with medical supplies and munitions galore, or they try to intercept it and I'm not telling exactly what I'm going to do if they go for it. I don't remember asking Alyrium to pull that out, though...

Who cares if it wasn't empty information? My point was that Alyrium was calling the pirate fleet's actions for them, which is total bullshit. He can't just retake control of them when it suits his needs, and then using that silly reasoning of his to justify his actions.

Look, if you were setting up a sting, that's cool, and kudos to you for that, I salute you. My beef's with Aly right now.

Look, folks, let's stick to the issues at hand. We can fuck about with an insignificant pirate fleet, or we can work out this Tortugan treaty thing. I say we get the story line rolling and finish off this little lesson in diplomatic lunacy.

Rogue 9 wrote:

Even though Rogue 9 has explicitly stated that I have ignored it.

I did?

Page 21

I've done it before. In case you've failed to notice, I've been trying to get Straha's attention with some juicy convoys for the pirates, but he's been going on and on about the ground war like the pirate fleet has disappeared.

*edited the media post to comply with strahas original*

Straha wrote:

Rogue 9 wrote:

Even though Rogue 9 has explicitly stated that I have ignored it.

I did?

Page 21

I've done it before. In case you've failed to notice, I've been trying to get Straha's attention with some juicy convoys for the pirates, but he's been going on and on about the ground war like the pirate fleet has disappeared.

well lets be fair, you have handilly igored them

Alyrium Denryle wrote:

Thirdfain wrote:Blackeyes time. I've got some Legitimate Political Dissonance (tm) to go and perpetrate.

Dude... we dont operate on the same set of instincts that people do, you will have one hell of a time pulling that shit off

About that... what do your people operate on? I'm an Ayn Rand fan myself (in fact one of my first threads here was about objectivism) and I seem to recall your declaration saying that your people believed in "Altruistic Randian Objectivism," just how much of Ayn Rand have you read might I ask?

Thirdfain wrote:Nashtar, go to war? Yeah, ok. I suspect that'll be happening the monday after the Asgard vote Democrat and Prince Jorm finally kicks that Ecstacy habit...


No offense, Dahak, but he is a party b0i...

He is
I like him that way

Straha wrote:

Alyrium Denryle wrote:

Thirdfain wrote:Blackeyes time. I've got some Legitimate Political Dissonance (tm) to go and perpetrate.

Dude... we dont operate on the same set of instincts that people do, you will have one hell of a time pulling that shit off

About that... what do your people operate on? I'm an Ayn Rand fan myself (in fact one of my first threads here was about objectivism) and I seem to recall your declaration saying that your people believed in "Altruistic Randian Objectivism," just how much of Ayn Rand have you read might I ask?

Basically Randian ethics, using a highly close knit altruistic society. Life and liberty are the standard by which ethics evolve around. And People will fight tooth and claw(literally) to protect THEIR rights, but also the rights of OTHERS, so long as that person did not commit a crime against another. Also, rights come with responsibilities. While the government will not initiate force to make you give food to starving family, it is generaly considered a moral obligation to do so.

The idea of intentionally screwing someone over, or harming someone else intentionally is even more heinous than it is in modern America, to the point where a terrorist action would never work for swaying public opinion, it would only piss people off that someone could be that evil, and regardless of the issue, those responsible will be hunted down, and executed post-haste.

...Wow. A society built on an inherent contradiction. No wonder they do silly things.

SirNitram wrote:...Wow. A society built on an inherent contradiction. No wonder they do silly things.

How is it an inherent contradiction? Life and Liberty are the standards, whether they are yours, or someone elses. Objectivist ethics, combined with altruism.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:

SirNitram wrote:...Wow. A society built on an inherent contradiction. No wonder they do silly things.

How is it an inherent contradiction? Life and Liberty are the standards, whether they are yours, or someone elses. Objectivist ethics, combined with altruism.

Probably because what little of Rand I can suffer through tends to beat the fist on the podium with 'ME ME ME' and the evils of altruism, and speaking with those better versed never changes this view as they tend to agree it is vocal agaisnt altruism.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:

SirNitram wrote:...Wow. A society built on an inherent contradiction. No wonder they do silly things.

How is it an inherent contradiction? Life and Liberty are the standards, whether they are yours, or someone elses. Objectivist ethics, combined with altruism.

Ah, see that's the thing. Objectivist ethics say Altruism is bad and is the devil of all the world. That's what makes me think you've read jack-squat of Ayn Rand.

I'd give you quotes if you'd like but I think that her whatchama call it mantra from Atlas Shrugged does it best.

"I will live my life for no man, nor have any man life his life for me."

While the government will not initiate force to make you give food to starving family, it is generaly considered a moral obligation to do so.

Have you even read Atlas Shrugged? One of the more defining scenes of the book is when Hank Rearden tells his mother that he won't give his brother a job, even though he has nowhere else to get a job.

So, a redefinition of your driving forces seems to be in order, would you be so kind as to deliver it?

Conceeded them.

SUppose I cant use "objectivist" and simply use the term "libertarianism" probably work a bit better.

You have all the problems in human nature that make a purley libertarian society slightly unworkable, then, fix them. And you essentially have the DR. Natural instinctual altruism, built on a framework of personal choice and inviolate life and liberty. It is why we can be so damn friendly to people who treat us with kindness, but downright predatory and hostile to those who attack us.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:You have all the problems in human nature that make a purley libertarian society slightly unworkable, then, fix them. And you essentially have the DR. Natural instinctual altruism, built on a framework of personal choice and inviolate life and liberty. It is why we can be so damn friendly to people who treat us with kindness, but downright predatory and hostile to those who attack us.

Then why were you so suprised when the Tortugans fought you?

Straha, I can't help but get the feeling that you're not being totally objective about this. There is no way that the Tortugans would behave like you're having them do. What they're doing is perfect for Monacora, but suicidal for them, which makes no in-game sense. Sure, their obstinance will let you try to wipe Alyrium from the map and take his worlds, but they'd die first and they have to know that.

It's hardly suicidal for them. They have the backing of the Unification (and a handful of other nations besides!) The Draconis are standing alone, without allies.

I fail to see how this isn't good for Tortuga. They are getting a chance to ensure they are never again threatened by the Draconis.

Thirdfain wrote:It's hardly suicidal for them. They have the backing of the Unification (and a handful of other nations besides!) The Draconis are standing alone, without allies.

I fail to see how this isn't good for Tortuga. They are getting a chance to ensure they are never again threatened by the Draconis.

Actually, we will never sign the treaty, and if we get invaded, you can be sure we probably wont leave much standing on their world as we pull out. Not only will it be a fighting retreat, but they have such terrible damage to their infastructure that come winter, they will all die(at least in their colder areas in temperate zones)

Straha wrote:

Alyrium Denryle wrote:You have all the problems in human nature that make a purley libertarian society slightly unworkable, then, fix them. And you essentially have the DR. Natural instinctual altruism, built on a framework of personal choice and inviolate life and liberty. It is why we can be so damn friendly to people who treat us with kindness, but downright predatory and hostile to those who attack us.

Then why were you so suprised when the Tortugans fought you?

We didnt expect their navy to stand up to us, we fully expected ground forces. I thought I made this clear.

Maybe you haven't been paying attention. You won't get Tortuga. If you bomb it, you'll turn everyone in Known Space against you. More importantly, your own allies haven't spoken so much as a word in support of you. Why would they think you are going to scorch their world?

Alyrium Denryle wrote:

Thirdfain wrote:It's hardly suicidal for them. They have the backing of the Unification (and a handful of other nations besides!) The Draconis are standing alone, without allies.

I fail to see how this isn't good for Tortuga. They are getting a chance to ensure they are never again threatened by the Draconis.

Actually, we will never sign the treaty, and if we get invaded, you can be sure we probably wont leave much standing on their world as we pull out. Not only will it be a fighting retreat, but they have such terrible damage to their infastructure that come winter, they will all die(at least in their colder areas in temperate zones)

So... you wont even try to be humanitarian like you said you were when you first invaded?

This doesn't strike you as hypocritical, why?

If you refuse to compromise on that treaty, and if Monocora invades as a result, well lets just say thaat we will pull out our troops and leave that planets orbit in the fastest way possible, and that means that nothing gets repaired.

Thirdfain wrote:Maybe you haven't been paying attention. You won't get Tortuga. If you bomb it, you'll turn everyone in Known Space against you. More importantly, your own allies haven't spoken so much as a word in support of you. Why would they think you are going to scorch their world?

Who said scorch? I never did. But their infastructure is not in the best of shape, and if Monocora invades, they have no electricity, no heat, and because of their own governments use of nuclear weapons, so much radiation sickness that hospitals(the ones that still have working equipment thanks to the EMP from said nukes) will be overflowing.

Thirdfain wrote:It's hardly suicidal for them. They have the backing of the Unification (and a handful of other nations besides!) The Draconis are standing alone, without allies.

I fail to see how this isn't good for Tortuga. They are getting a chance to ensure they are never again threatened by the Draconis.

BDZ mean anything to you? I know we don't have the tech level to do it properly, but we sure as heck can make sure that not one brick is standing on another.

More importantly, your own allies haven't spoken so much as a word in support of you.

Oh, haven't I? I seem to remember a press release on the matter.

I still say that this seems just too perfect for Monacora and whoever else's ambitions for the Draconis. I also say that this attitude was suspiciously not there when you were conquering worlds.