StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Just because you won't necessarily spread your cheeks and lube yourself up to the other nation doesn't mean nations can't conduct themselves fairly and with respect to their fellows. Without going out of their way to be utter dicks.

RogueIce wrote:I'm not a mind reader. I have no idea what your plans are. Just pointing out a likely reaction if it were to continue.

If what were to continue? Me associating economically with other parts of the world? Stop the presses, the NFT is doing business with people!

When has that ever stopped bloggers? They'll see the word "Department" and make the connection with is as in a corporate or government "department"; ie: a part of that corporation/government.

Who cares about bloggers? You're talking about 'serious flack'. Unless we're each using a radically different definition of what 'serious' entails precisely I think I can safely say that angry tirades on the Internet aren't it.

Now see, this is the OOC thing I was talking about. I made the point about how not every post from a player has to come from that national leader. Just because RogueIce makes a post, doesn't mean President Shinra had anything to do with it.

When RogueIce makes a post containing the phrase 'serious flack', is it really so strange that SiegeTank assumes he's talking about something slightly more official than a few bloggers or talking heads?

SiegeTank wrote:

When has that ever stopped bloggers? They'll see the word "Department" and make the connection with is as in a corporate or government "department"; ie: a part of that corporation/government.

Who cares about bloggers? You're talking about 'serious flack'. Unless we're each using a radically different definition of what 'serious' entails precisely I think I can safely say that angry tirades on the Internet aren't it.

Now see, this is the OOC thing I was talking about. I made the point about how not every post from a player has to come from that national leader. Just because RogueIce makes a post, doesn't mean President Shinra had anything to do with it.

When RogueIce makes a post containing the phrase 'serious flack', is it really so strange that SiegeTank assumes he's talking about something slightly more official than a few bloggers or talking heads?

In SDN World, the internet is serious business.

Didn't you get the memo?

EDIT: And fuck it, a little international tension and posturing is fun. Much more exciting than "Space Launch #3401-A" anyway. No offense to PeZook and Wilkens, of course.

Siege, calm down. It's not worth fighting about.

There's no reason why politicians can't flame bloggers. I'm sure Prime Minister Shroom trolls all sorts of forums and blogs for the lulz and gets the Shroomanian Secret Service to do web-attacks on sites he hates.

Like a state-sanctioned 4chan. HACKERS ON STEROIDS!

Jesus christ, we go out of our way to make space launches interesting and Rogue whines about Miranda Moonbeam. We go on with the serious space business and Rogue whines it's not interesitng enough.

There's just no pleasing you, mang

RogueIce wrote:And fuck it, a little international tension and posturing is fun. Much more exciting than "Space Launch #3401-A" anyway. No offense to PeZook and Wilkens, of course.

You know what's fun?

Giant motorbikes! Albino androgynes with obscene swords! GEOSTIGMA! Midgar and white robes and bandages and wheelchairs! THAT'S what's fun!

Stuff like Moonbeam Madness, Mongol Khitanese hordes led by the Khan (Alan), Velarian Valkyries, MOHAMMAD JIHAD and Mohammad Nemo! That stuff is fun, mang!

Like defaced pictures showing President Rufus DEFORMED in a WHEELCHAIR. And wax statues of the HUANG DI! And his cackling vizier!

Oh yeah, and stuff like PeZook's crime noir stuff with Ana. All he needs is a monologuing Clive Owen, black and white cinematography, and a script based on a Frank Miller comic and he's all set for BREASTBLEEDWHORESville.

Man, Rufus, we've got an entire world to make fun of and you can't even have some oversized motorcycles no matter how hard I try to make you awesome. You're boring.


Don't listen to him, PeZook. We're awesome. You and Siege and Shady and grouchy Heraclius who sips CHEAP SOUP acting like Scrooge McDuck and dudes like Langley with his Karic Kousin and stuff and Ryan with his perpetually pissed Mr. Gero and stuff!

All he needs is a monologuing Clive Owen, black and white cinematography, and a script based on a Frank Miller comic and he's all set for BREASTBLEEDWHORESville.

Okay, I know this reference has been all over both STGODS for, like, forever, but...

WHAT'S WITH THE BLEEDING BREASTS AND WHORES?! !!!

Ahem. *adjusts tie*

Yeah, I'd really like to know.

Master_Baerne wrote:Siege, calm down. It's not worth fighting about.

I can't help but get irritable when the IRT swallows the Klavostani economy whole and no-one even so much as blinks, and yet when I painstakingly negotiate an mutually beneficial economic treaty Rogue here is all over me with predictions of serious consequences. That kind of politically convenient outrage pisses me right off.

SiegeTank wrote:

phongn wrote:Too bad there's no obvious way to do a hostile takeover of San Dorado.

You think that's a coincidence? I specifically designed the system so no-one can just swoop in and buy my country out from under me. You can't buy shares unless you're a shareholder, and you're not a shareholder until we say you can be.

Oh, I know it's no coincidence at all.

Also, what PeZook said. A sizable majority of all shares is owned by the megacorporations and those that run them. Sidney Hank personally owns nearly ten percent of all shares in San Dorado. Good luck trying to compete for shares with a guy who can just ask his soon-to-be wife to send government-sanctioned assassins to drop you from a high building.

Given that idea, couldn't I then attempt hostile takeovers of San Doradan megacorporations in order to get voting power? Even if not majority power, a foot in the door would certainly be nice.

This is all theoretical, mind you.

SiegeTank wrote:I can't help but get irritable when the IRT swallows the Klavostani economy whole and no-one even so much as blinks, and yet when I painstakingly negotiate an mutually beneficial economic treaty Rogue here is all over me with predictions of serious consequences. That kind of politically convenient outrage pisses me right off.

Alas, isn't that sort of how the world works?

PeZook wrote:

All he needs is a monologuing Clive Owen, black and white cinematography, and a script based on a Frank Miller comic and he's all set for BREASTBLEEDWHORESville.

Okay, I know this reference has been all over both STGODS for, like, forever, but...

WHAT'S WITH THE BLEEDING BREASTS AND WHORES?! !!!

Ahem. *adjusts tie*

Yeah, I'd really like to know.

Frank Miller, that guy who made the Sin City comic book, is kind of all about bleeding breasts and whores.

And I kind of look up to the guy in both awe, admiration and aspiration.

So I wrote this...

SiegeTank wrote:I can't help but get irritable when the IRT swallows the Klavostani economy whole and no-one even so much as blinks, and yet when I painstakingly negotiate an mutually beneficial economic treaty Rogue here is all over me with predictions of serious consequences. That kind of politically convenient outrage pisses me right off.

It's not outright dickish if it's the MESS being outright dickish! Haven't you heard, mangs?

SiegeTank wrote:I can't help but get irritable when the IRT swallows the Klavostani economy whole and no-one even so much as blinks, and yet when I painstakingly negotiate an mutually beneficial economic treaty Rogue here is all over me with predictions of serious consequences. That kind of politically convenient outrage pisses me right off.

Now you know why I got upset over people making noise about the CFR thing but not the Costas situation.

And since the IRT swooping into Klavostan was my idea in the first place, of course I'm happy with that. Like I said: welcome to politics.

PeZook wrote:Jesus christ, we go out of our way to make space launches interesting and Rogue whines about Miranda Moonbeam. We go on with the serious space business and Rogue whines it's not interesitng enough.

There's just no pleasing you, mang

Rufus Shinra is a crotchety son of a bitch, isn't he?

Anyway, I worded it wrong. It's not so much as "not interesting" in that I don't enjoy reading the stories. It's "not interesting" in that, knowing jack shit about the space stuff, I can't really participate in it. So there's not much for me to really do right now beyond "oh I bought this piece of military equipment, yay". I mean, I could try and make some psuedo-fanfic thing about crime syndicates and all, but this is supposed to be a world simulation game with our nations interacting. If we're just being super-best-friends all the time, that takes some of the tension (and fun) out of it for players like me.

I like the diplomatic and political intrigue stuff of foreign relations, seeing tensions rise and then struggling to bring them back down before it tips over. Frustrating though it may be at times, it does provide some excitement. See what I'm saying?

Which is why we really could've used some NPCs to dick around with. All this player-vs-player stuff just brings about headaches and arguments, and things get taken personally. And I'll admit I fall victim to that, too. Much easier to butt heads with some fictional NPC leader.

phongn wrote:Given that idea, couldn't I then attempt hostile takeovers of San Doradan megacorporations in order to get voting power? Even if not majority power, a foot in the door would certainly be nice.

This is all theoretical, mind you.

If you somehow convinced enough shareholders to part with their stocks that might work in theory. But the problem is that the government has to sign off on the takeover of any San Dorado stock company. For megacorporations like Ralson Concerns, Standard Oil, Universal Motors or SinTEK you're simply never going to get that green light.

All that stands apart from the fact that the government in turn owns large volumes of stock in the corporations that own the government. Really, the relationship between the megacorps and the government is way too incestuous for any sort of hostile takeover to plausibly come to pass.

Alas, isn't that sort of how the world works?

It would appear so. Doesn't mean I have to like it though.

RogueIce wrote:Now you know why I got upset over people making noise about the CFR thing but not the Costas situation.

You mean the Costas situation where practically the entirety of CATO was hollering for a cease-fire? That Costas situation?

SiegeTank wrote:

PeZook wrote:Alas, isn't that sort of how the world works?

It would appear so. Doesn't mean I have to like it though.

As Stark would probably say, international politics is full of double standards. Who knew?

SiegeTank wrote:

RogueIce wrote:Now you know why I got upset over people making noise about the CFR thing but not the Costas situation.

You mean the Costas situation where practically our entire alliance was hollering for a cease-fire? That Costas situation?

When it got out of control, sure. But you weren't quick to condemn them moving in in the first place (and, as I recall, there were a lot of people defending that initial move). But we've been down this road far, far too many times. Let's just say that when it came to Tian Xia and then Baerne sending in peacekeepers on the F-ing continent, those who "liked" one side or the other didn't care, and those who "didn't like" one side or the other did care. As said above, double standards. Such is life. Look at some of the kerfluffle over recent US/Russian relations for real life examples of how this sort of thing works.

By the by, the description of Overseas Departments on your Wiki page sounds a lot different than what you posted here:

NFT wiki entry wrote:The Departments meanwhile are governed by autonomy statutes that put them directly under management of the Syndicate and its local appointees. Therefore Syndicate regulation apply (civil code, penal code, administrative law, social laws, stockholder laws et cetera).

Sounds a lot more like direct control than some mutual economic benefit thing. Perhaps you should clarify that?

At least I can take a quantum of solace in the fact that, out of all these international geopolitical dickeries, whacky old Prime Minister Shroom is one of those few with fewer hypocrisies than the others.

RogueIce wrote:When it got out of control, sure. But you weren't quick to condemn them moving in in the first place [...]

In fact I was. If you'll look here you'll find that President Hank appealed to all warring parties to reach a ceasefire, just after Baerne decided to get involved. And if you want to get technical that states that the President 'renewed' his appeal, because logically the NFT would have urged for a cease-fire to be signed the minute people began shooting in the vicinity of its southern border.

RogueIce wrote:Sounds a lot more like direct control than some mutual economic benefit thing. Perhaps you should clarify that?

That particular bit was copied directly from the 'building your country' thread, and written with Paradise Island in mind. It's supposed to vary between regions, depending on what's specified in the Autonomy Statute. Paradise Island is a rock in the middle of nowhere off Velaria, settled by a bunch of adventurers who were clearly out of their depth. Eastern Occidental meanwhile is a de facto functioning state which pulled through the complete disintegration of the CFR. Clearly these situations are different, and so the arrangements made therefore are different also.

SiegeTank wrote:That particular bit was copied directly from the 'building your country' thread, and written with Paradise Island in mind. It's supposed to vary between regions, depending on what's specified in the Autonomy Statute. Paradise Island is a rock in the middle of nowhere off Velaria, settled by a bunch of adventurers who were clearly out of their depth. Eastern Occidental meanwhile is a de facto functioning state which pulled through the complete disintegration of the CFR. Clearly these situations are different, and so the arrangements made therefore are different also.

Then...say so in the article? My memory isn't perfect, and it's far easier to look it up in the Wiki than do a board search to try and dig the explanation up in here. Hence my purpose behind the Wiki.

EDIT: I'll grant you said differing levels of autonomy in the first paragraph, but when the second paragraph says "the difference between Members States and Departments is..." it makes things less clear. So it probably wouldn't hurt to reword it some to make the differences more clear.

Although if you do have certain Overseas Departments that are under the "direct administration of the NFT" than you will get the worst-case scenario types painting all of them as that way. Because people are like that. Don't take it personal. I'm sure if I did the same thing over in Velaria I'd get the same criticism, if any player felt like making a post about public reaction.

RE: the Costas, ok, point taken. Others defended them though, so in the broader sense...ah fuck it. Let's just accept that, from time to time there will be cases of double standards because not all nations are going to see things the same way (colored by their own interests, whatever they may be).

Seige I'll try to have a response to your counter proposal up soon; it's something I'll have to think on however.

And for my latest post, I just want to make it clear that Indhopal is reverting to the bad old days mode in its foreign policy. (As if coups and outright demands for a buffer state aren't enough of an indication )

SiegeTank wrote:If you somehow convinced enough shareholders to part with their stocks that might work in theory. But the problem is that the government has to sign off on the takeover of any San Dorado stock company. For megacorporations like Ralson Concerns, Standard Oil, Universal Motors or SinTEK you're simply never going to get that green light.

Certainly so, but there's also influence. The IRT is not so much interested in full takeover (though it would be nice!) as expanding markets, increasing profit, etc. And San Dorado would certainly be a nice addition

Plus, you know we'd permit devolved government anyways

So 'Fin I don't think there is a good means to have an IC post regarding military equipment. So anyway I'll just stick it here, the agreements which allowed you access to the STAR system and foreign military purchase of the SM-4 family is a purchase not lease agreement. In other words anything you have already bought is yours to keep. What you can't do is produce any new equipment amongst the liscensed technologies. The real downside is that you would not have (unless it clears FMS agreement) any extra software liscenses for the STAR authentication platform. So you couldn't add any of your other platforms to the system nor could you integrate your existing system with any other C$I system you build at thsi point. Realistically it means that any STAR vessels you have are now very capable vessels that can't share their info.

In that case, it's time to rip out the systems and replace them with S-500F. I have been listing a number of things that would be done in the event that this eventuality should come to pass.

Hey Rogue, you build F-35Bs right? How much would say 50 of them cost me?

RogueIce wrote:RE: the Costas, ok, point taken. Others defended them though, so in the broader sense...ah fuck it.

Well, we defended them in the OOC thread, while we were the first ones to actually voice protestations IC. Like how we were the first ones to send humanitarian aid.

Besides, when the Baernes moved in to make their buffer zone, they didn't fire a shot (as far as I know) and to the north, the San Doradans also already had a years-long military presence over at the Costan fringe worlds to ensure stability, keep the peace, and prevent refugees from pouring through.

The place is Somalia - a warring shithole of no value. Why would anyone object to US Marines or Army Rangers being sent in to try and make the place not a warring shithole?

Let's just accept that, from time to time there will be cases of double standards because not all nations are going to see things the same way (colored by their own interests, whatever they may be).

Then it's time to open up dialogue and detente to promote understanding and agreement from both sides.

RogueIce wrote:Then...say so in the article? My memory isn't perfect, and it's far easier to look it up in the Wiki than do a board search to try and dig the explanation up in here. Hence my purpose behind the Wiki.

I did; the article has been changed already.

Although if you do have certain Overseas Departments that are under the "direct administration of the NFT" than you will get the worst-case scenario types painting all of them as that way.

Well, you know, I guess if people want to be overly simplistic that's their prerogative. I can always tell them to go read a book on the matter. It's not as if 'look up what is specified in the Autonomy Statute' is such a difficult concept to figure out.

Raj Ahten wrote:Seige I'll try to have a response to your counter proposal up soon; it's something I'll have to think on however.

That's okay, but keep in mind that I'll be gone tomorrow and all of next week, and I probably won't have much time for elaborate negotiations before that.

phongn wrote:The IRT is not so much interested in full takeover (though it would be nice!) as expanding markets, increasing profit, etc. And San Dorado would certainly be a nice addition.

I'm sure it would be. At this stage we're not interested though, full sovereignty is suiting us nicely .

Shroom Man 777 wrote:...and to the north, the San Doradans also already had a years-long military presence over at the Costan fringe worlds ...

Decades-long actually. We've camped out down there since the late 70s or so.

Ha-ha! FASTA oneupmanship!