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It was more Star Wars than any of the Prequels.

Batman wrote:It was more Star Wars than any of the Prequels.

That's because the fans (like JJ) understand Star Wars better than George Lucas does now.

Batman wrote:It was more Star Wars than any of the Prequels.

Well, it certainly had more of the sci-fi pulp feeling to it, I'll give you that.

Galvatron wrote:

Batman wrote:It was more Star Wars than any of the Prequels.

That's because the fans (like JJ) understand Star Wars better than George Lucas does now.

I think the problem is what the fans wanted Star Wars to be isn't what George Lucas wanted Star Wars to be. He got what he wanted in the Prequels, and it was blergh. TFA gave what the fans wanted.

Batman wrote: TFA gave what the fans wanted.

That's...debatable. People who watch TFA just to watch TFA seem to like it. People who watch TFA to see Star Wars are more hit or miss depending on if they want to see they Universe(TM) or if they want to see the Characters(TM).

TFA is basically pure concentrated Star Wars, from the first scene of BB8 looking up at the sky in a desert at night. The Prequels just have a totally different feel, especially because of the glossy appearance and abundance of CGI.

That said, there's no reason the Prequels needed to be like the OT or TFA in order to not suck. The general storyline (fall of Republic, fall of Anakin) is pretty awesome, and a lot of the ideas are good. It just wasn't executed well. And it's definitely a much more difficult storyline to execute than the OT. Unfortunately, there was no Lawrence Kasdan around to clean up Lucas' medicore/shitty writing.

Batman wrote:

Galvatron wrote:

Batman wrote:It was more Star Wars than any of the Prequels.

That's because the fans (like JJ) understand Star Wars better than George Lucas does now.

I think the problem is what the fans wanted Star Wars to be isn't what George Lucas wanted Star Wars to be. He got what he wanted in the Prequels, and it was blergh. TFA gave what the fans wanted.

Well I would say speak for yourself about "what the fans want". Because I am a fan and this isn't what I wanted. But I also WASN'T ASKING FOR ANYTHING EITHER. I in no way, shape or form expect filmmakers to cater to my needs or anyone else's needs either. They make the film and if people like it cool. If people don't like it that is cool too.


Yeah Lucas did want to tell his story in the PT. Just like he went through high hell to TELL HIS STORY in the OT. The OT and PT are Lucas' story. No matter who else directs, polishes the script, makes the costumes etc. It was Lucas shelling money out of his own pocket to fund his films of the story he wanted told. So if people don't like his films than it is not a big deal. But he still went out of his way and used his money to do that.

How much money has JJ shelled out of his own pocket for making TFA?

Except a movie is not a one-person job or vision. ANH was legendary as being 'saved in editing', as well as being told as much through the actors, musical score, direction, effects, and times.

When it came to the PT, the 'star wars moments' such as the infamous Han-Leia ad-libbing, or the mysterious shadowy 'left to the imagination' elements such as the nature of the Emperor or the Force... all gone. Lucas just filled in the blanks with his complete control, and it was CRAP.

So if anything, Star Wars was a collaborative effort that became strangled once 'Collaborative' meant 'Obey Lucas as he signs all the checks and won't accept criticism'.

TFA was 'star wars' only because it tried very deliberately to distance itself from the PT, and be reminescent of all three OT movies in familiar sights, sounds, and structure. Now that it's distinctly told us, 'You will not sit through idiotic Jedi daycares, discuss midichlorians, have cartoon rabbit clown characters, magical pre-teens, and backflipping video game bullshit', that means the next few movies have a lot more of an open hand in what they can do.

Nephtys wrote:Except a movie is not a one-person job or vision. ANH was legendary as being 'saved in editing', as well as being told as much through the actors, musical score, direction, effects, and times.

When it came to the PT, the 'star wars moments' such as the infamous Han-Leia ad-libbing, or the mysterious shadowy 'left to the imagination' elements such as the nature of the Emperor or the Force... all gone. Lucas just filled in the blanks with his complete control, and it was CRAP.

So if anything, Star Wars was a collaborative effort that became strangled once 'Collaborative' meant 'Obey Lucas as he signs all the checks and won't accept criticism'.

TFA was 'star wars' only because it tried very deliberately to distance itself from the PT, and be reminescent of all three OT movies in familiar sights, sounds, and structure. Now that it's distinctly told us, 'You will not sit through idiotic Jedi daycares, discuss midichlorians, have cartoon rabbit clown characters, magical pre-teens, and backflipping video game bullshit', that means the next few movies have a lot more of an open hand in what they can do.

Well you don't like the PT doesn't make it less "Star Wars' because of that. Yeah and TFA distanced itself so much that it became the OT and not the start of the ST.

I was hoping that I would be seeing the start of the ST and not the best hits of the OT compilation.

Andy Wylde wrote:Well you don't like the PT doesn't make it less "Star Wars' because of that. Yeah and TFA distanced itself so much that it became the OT and not the start of the ST.

I was hoping that I would be seeing the start of the ST and not the best hits of the OT compilation.

Well, it remains to be seen. I think a lot of the mentality behind TFA was essentially "damage control". Regardless of whether you want to claim it's due to a few "rabid" fans, or some kind of general critical consensus, Star Wars suffered something of a setback due to the generally poorly received Prequels. You can argue that there's some kind of "silent majority" that thinks the Prequels were awesome (and indeed they're not entirely horrible, and even (barely) have a "fresh" rotten tomatoes rating if I recall), but even if that's the case, market research at Disney obviously concluded that the brand needed something of a "reboot" in order to bring it back to the classic OT style in order to be well received.

So, in that sense, TFA accomplished its mission. But I agree with you that TFA is a bit too close to the OT in plot structure - especially the whole plot regarding Starkiller base. I actually agree with one of the posters here (I think it was Patroklos) who suggested that Starkiller base should have been introduced in this movie as a setup for further films, rather than destroyed in a Death-Star assault redux. Regardless, none of this will matter if Episode 8 and 9 go off in a unique direction. And to be honest, since the characters are so great this time around, even if 8 and 9 have derivative elements it won't be so bad. I mean Episode 7 was pretty obviously derivative, yet still felt very enjoyable and unique because the characters were new and interesting.

Channel72 wrote:

Andy Wylde wrote:Well you don't like the PT doesn't make it less "Star Wars' because of that. Yeah and TFA distanced itself so much that it became the OT and not the start of the ST.

I was hoping that I would be seeing the start of the ST and not the best hits of the OT compilation.

Well, it remains to be seen. I think a lot of the mentality behind TFA was essentially "damage control". Regardless of whether you want to claim it's due to a few "rabid" fans, or some kind of general critical consensus, Star Wars suffered something of a setback due to the generally poorly received Prequels. You can argue that there's some kind of "silent majority" that thinks the Prequels were awesome (and indeed they're not entirely horrible, and even mostly have a "fresh" rotten tomatoes rating if I recall), but even if that's the case, market research at Disney obviously concluded that the brand needed something of a "reboot" in order to bring it back to the classic OT style in order to be well received.

So, in that sense, TFA accomplished its mission. But I agree with you that TFA is a bit too close to the ANH - especially the whole plot regarding Starkiller base. I actually agree with one of the posters here (I think it was Patroklos) who suggested that Starkiller base should have been introduced in this movie as a setup for further films, rather than destroyed in a Death-Star assault redux. Regardless, none of this will matter if Episode 8 and 9 go off on in a unique direction. And to be honest, since the characters are so great this time around, even if 8 and 9 have derivative elements it won't be so bad. 7 was pretty obviously derivative, yet still felt very enjoyable and unique because the characters were new and interesting.

Alright cool. I know you ain't too big on the PT. That is fine. But I don't think the PT did that much damage as some seem to think. They made money. They brought in fans. So even with those 2 things in mind, it did more good than bad. But I hope that the next episodes do go in some kind of new direction. But the new 3 characters for me failed. This is my opinion now. So I know others see it a lot different. But a failed storm trooper/janitor, a Mary Sue and an Emo Vader fanboy didn't really get me invested in them.

Oh and believe me I don't really back up how I feel with some "majority/minority" I never took a precise headcount of the SW fandom. I speak for myself and only myself. People won't agree with me and that doesn't change my position on the matter. I also am not worried about "convincing" anyone to see my point of view. Because the way I am, when I see people say,

"Well the PT sucks and majority of fans agree" (Oh and I am not saying you said this, but it has been said many time and it gets ridiculous.)

Shit like that just adds nothing and doesn't give someone else's opinions any more validity.

But as for TFA. I did enjoy it overall, But it left a lot to be desired for me. It seemed that this was really rushed. But this again is my opinion. And my other opinion is that all the movies are SW. Even the new one, even with the issues I have. I do hope the next one goes a different route. But I also have no problem with anyone enjoying this on an extremely high level. That is cool.


I hope I shed some light on this matter on how I feel.

After a second viewing, another little nugget which makes me think Rey could be Luke's daughter:

During the interrogation scene, Darth Emo mentions how he sees that when she goes to sleep at night she dreams of an island in the middle of an ocean. When she locates Luke, he's on an island in the middle of an ocean.

Since it seems unlikely Luke would be actively trying to send her visions of his hiding place, either she was receiving Force premonitions of future events, or her familial connection to Luke was giving her visions of where he was hiding out.

Yes, Rey is almost certainly Luke's daughter.

Its strange... this film seems to be trying to ape the OT's "I am your father" twist repeatedly... but not actually making it at all surprising.

So, I finally saw the movie. All in all, I was disappointed. It would take too long to list all the reasons right now, but to summarize the main reasons:

1. The pacing was terrible.
2. It was too closely imitating the OT.
3. The plot lacked cohesion and good development.

I also found the music weaker than in any previous film (one piece that seemed to be associated with Rey aside), and Kylo a rather unimpressive villain (though I think to some extent that was deliberate- he's an insecure poser trying to ape a real Sith Lord, and he knows it).

On the plus side, Harrison Ford was great as Han, and Daisy Ridley was good too. Some really gorgeous visuals as well.

The music was certainly weaker than in any other SW film. The PT had awesome music, whatever one thinks of the films themselves.

Truth be told, the film was a let down for me. To be honest, while I should probably give it a second viewing for the sake of fairness (as one's mood at the time and one's preconceptions can shape one's impression of a film), I would rate it lower than any previous Star Wars film except, perhaps, Episode One and the animated Clone Wars film. Granted, as I'm not a hard core Prequel hater, that's a less damning criticism from me than from a lot of people. Still, to quote a much better film from earlier this year:

"MEDIOCRE!"

Edit: That said, I get the feeling this is a film that might be saved, at least partially, by a good LotR-style extended edition. A lot of stuff just felt rushed and poorly explained.

You know, its amazing how much they took from the game Knights of the Old Republic for this (unless its coincidence, but that would be stretching it).

Let's see...

Enemy super weapon powered by drawing on a star (though the nature of the weapon was very different).
The plot being partly centred around a star map that's split into pieces.
Kylo's appearance is vaguely Revan-like.

I gauruntee at least one of the script writers is a KotOR fan.

K. A. Pital wrote:The music was certainly weaker than in any other SW film. The PT had awesome music, whatever one thinks of the films themselves.

Yeah, TFA doesn't really have a 'stand-out' track, let alone the many that each OT film had. The PT doesn't have anywhere near the awesome music the OT does.

Stand-out tracks, IMO:

1. The Phantom Menace:

- Duel of the Fates

Seriously, does anyone remember a piece of music from TPM that isn't Duel of the Fates? Of course not.

- The Droid Invasion

Evocative of John Williams' 'Nazi' themes from Indiana Jones. Good stuff.

Nothing else really stands out.

*Honorable mention: Anakin's Theme. Not really used in the film, however.

2. Attack of the Clones

Nothing really stands out, for the whole movie. Maybe Across the Stars (Anakin/Padme love theme)? Barely?

3. Revenge of the Sith

Back up to OT standard. Many good tracks, too many to bother listing.

I would say Rey's theme was the best new piece, or at least the most memorable one, for Force Awakens.

Nephtys wrote:So if anything, Star Wars was a collaborative effort that became strangled once 'Collaborative' meant 'Obey Lucas as he signs all the checks and won't accept criticism'.

Well said. I'mma sig that.

Nephtys wrote:Except a movie is not a one-person job or vision. ANH was legendary as being 'saved in editing', as well as being told as much through the actors, musical score, direction, effects, and times.

You left out the caterer.

When it came to the PT, the 'star wars moments' such as the infamous Han-Leia ad-libbing, or the mysterious shadowy 'left to the imagination' elements such as the nature of the Emperor or the Force... all gone. Lucas just filled in the blanks with his complete control, and it was CRAP.

In your opinion. The many millions who gladly paid to watch (many more than once) thought otherwise.

So if anything, Star Wars was a collaborative effort that became strangled once 'Collaborative' meant 'Obey Lucas as he signs all the checks and won't accept criticism'.

Do you have any evidence that the cast and crew were any more servile on the prequels than they were on the original films? I'd like to see it.

TFA was 'star wars' only because it tried very deliberately to distance itself from the PT, and be reminescent of all three OT movies in familiar sights, sounds, and structure. Now that it's distinctly told us, 'You will not sit through idiotic Jedi daycares, discuss midichlorians, have cartoon rabbit clown characters, magical pre-teens, and backflipping video game bullshit',

I take it then you didn't like the prequels.

that means the next few movies have a lot more of an open hand in what they can do.

No, they'll be lazy rehashes of the older movies. Bob Iger didn't cough up BILLIONS in order to let artists try new things. He's going to get hacks to serve up the same dish over and over until the last drop is squeezed from the IP.

One nice thing I'll say about this film is that I do appreciate the apparent attempt to do something different with Kylo Ren. He's not a terribly imposing villain, with his petty tantrums and getting his ass handed to him by a pair of newbies, but I feel like that's kind of the point. He's a poser, trying to live up to a real Sith Lord, tormented by insecurity, and he knows it. Its potentially a very interesting take. The only problem is that its not terribly well-developed (aside from that one scene with Han), and so we're largely left with an unimposing villain.

K. A. Pital wrote:The music was certainly weaker than in any other SW film. The PT had awesome music, whatever one thinks of the films themselves.

The only cue I found noteworthy was the Burning Homestead theme when Finn ignites the lightsaber. Other than that, crickets.

Vympel wrote:1. The Phantom Menace:
*snip*
Nothing else really stands out.

I would disagree with this, but I'm kind of a soundtrack nerd.

To be more productive though, I absolutely adored Shmi's Theme. It didn't get featured at all on the official soundtrack (thank God for the Ultimate Edition) but I fell in love with it and put it up there with some of the best music in either the OT or PT. And I can't have been the only one since SWTOR took the time to add it in for their romance music.

I also really dug "The Flag Parade" as well.

So far as TFA's music is concerned...

Rey's Theme is pretty great. But overall, yeah I don't think there's a lot of standout tracks like the older movies had. I'll just quote myself on the topic from SB:

Me, on SB wrote:

Satnav wrote:The rest may not be as memorable as past tunes, but did their jobs in enhancing their scenes.

Honestly in listening to Starkiller Base this is my takeaway, as well.

Compare this to, say, Anakin's Betrayal from RotS. They're both very effective "sad songs" and do much to enhance the scenes over which they play. But the difference, in my opinion anyway, is that the Ep3 track works extremely well on its own while the TFA song really needs the associated visuals from the movie to hit its full impact.

It's a good piece, don't get me wrong. But it works best with the movie scene, and loses some of its impact when I just listen to it separately. And that's how I feel about a lot of the TFA soundtrack, really. The pieces really need the movie to reach their full potential, and just on their own are still good, but lack a lot of the oomph that was present in many of the older movie soundtracks.

The Romulan Republic wrote:One nice thing I'll say about this film is that I do appreciate the apparent attempt to do something different with Kylo Ren. He's not a terribly imposing villain, with his petty tantrums and getting his ass handed to him by a pair of newbies, but I feel like that's kind of the point. He's a poser, trying to live up to a real Sith Lord, tormented by insecurity, and he knows it. Its potentially a very interesting take. The only problem is that its not terribly well-developed (aside from that one scene with Han), and so we're largely left with an unimposing villain.

They develop it somewhat in the scene where he's alone talking to himself (or to Darth Vader's mask). But yeah, I agree he's an interesting villain. I'm glad they went with "insecure psychopath" rather than another "fully competent, evil Sith Lord" like Vader, because Vader is really just too awesome to try to compete with, so there's no sense in even trying. At least, I think Ren is a better villain than any of the PT villains, (unless you count Sidious), mainly because of his inner conflict and the fact that he actually struggles to be evil. That's a pretty unique take on a Star Wars villain.

Plus I just think he looks and sounds cool when he wears the mask. It's actually kind of cool that when he takes the mask off, there's suddenly this "Wizard of Oz" moment where he ceases to appear threatening. (Some critics have suggested he should have never taken his mask off until the scene with Han, which I think might have been a better idea.)

As an aside, my sister (who was never much of a Star Wars fan before) is thought this movie was fantastic. She admires Rey and doesn't give a shit if she's a Mary Sue or not. She is also now in love with Oscar Isaac and thinks he's the sexiest man alive.

She also came to the conclusion that the prequels were shit even without my influence.

So that's a win for Disney.

Elfdart wrote:No, they'll be lazy rehashes of the older movies. Bob Iger didn't cough up BILLIONS in order to let artists try new things. He's going to get hacks to serve up the same dish over and over until the last drop is squeezed from the IP.

Exactly. It's like how Disney ruined Marvel all over again.