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Darth Hoth wrote:Also played through the first two games a couple of times each. (Though I refused to pay for bloodsucking DLC.)

You're missing on some good content, honestly.

*The "Geth are really good!" subplot struck me as an adaptation of an unfilmed Captain Planet script. So, OK, they wanted to be original/PC/whatever and have the Geth not being a stereotypical Skynet. I can buy that. Only instead they made them squeaky clean noble savages, and the Quarians so retardedly stupid and evil they deserve a Polluting Power Ring. And lo, any kind of moral ambiguity or verisimilitude went straight out the window. The only way I could react to that BS was to instantly dismiss the whole cyber-memories scene as poorly written propaganda from Geth VI to cover up the Evil Genocidal Robots.

New writer for the Geth and EDI (and it shows).

It's pretty funny Hoth thinks that the Geth got a huge retcon in their motivations since it's been clear from the first game that the Quarians are almost entirely responsible for the Morning War and their subsequent exile. And lol at "bloodsucking dlc."

PeZook wrote:

DarkArk wrote:I thought that destroying the citadel and mass relays was one of the few things that the final ending got right. The relays are fundamentally a system of control made by the reapers that will stunt growth of all galactic civilization. Freedom from the reapers is impossible so long as the relays and citadel remain intact.

Oh, come the fuck on. The mass relays can somehow "control" and "stunt growth" of galactic civilization...by providing a cheap, fast and reliable way of interstellar travel?

Totally! What an opressive piece of technology!

A clear Hyperion farcasters' ripoff.

Well... Reaper technology somehow indoctrinates those around it.

Mass Relays are supposedly Reaper technology and we see them magically emit space magic that alters the universe in a chain reaction. It would be another rather insidious way for the Reapers to get an edge. All this time Shepard and co. have been using Mass Relay technology they have been getting indoctrinated by them.

One way to make the ending seem a little bit more sensible. Then again, if the Reapers are that bright. Would have expected them to have some sort of AI planted in the Mass Relay network to make sure things go to plan.

Oh wait... that would be the Starchild.
Oh look... the creator of the Reapers just had Shepard spread space magic throughout the universe via it's own creations technology...
Why did the Reapers need to leave Soverign behind if the Starchild god AI was on the Citadel...

Ah, fuck this bullshit.

DarkArk wrote:

Again: they provide easy and cheap interstellar travel. OH MY GOD this is horrible and opressive and thus must be wiped out because it will somehow mean nobody is FREE! (FREEDOM FUCK YEAH!)

Cut it with the strawman. The fact that the relays are efficient means nothing, because they are a crucial element of the reapers trap. It makes sense that when you're destroying the reapers you also destroy the things that made them as successful as they were.

Strawman? Really?

DarkArk wrote:I thought that destroying the citadel and mass relays was one of the few things that the final ending got right. The relays are fundamentally a system of control made by the reapers that will stunt growth of all galactic civilization. Freedom from the reapers is impossible so long as the relays and citadel remain intact.

You DID say it's about FREEDOM, somehow. Because destroying the fucking Reapers themselves does not give you freedom from them, right? No, you have to dynamite their autobahns, too, so that people would not be "stunted" (ie. have their extensive infrastructure and their warships and their industry...) by them. This is seriously like dynamiting all communist-built schools instead of changing the goddamn curriculum. And expecting people to magically stop using the incredibly useful magical material (eezo) just because they can't travel FTL now is beyond retarded. It's like thinking "Oh hey I will destroy Roman roads, surely people will now invent something better than the wheel!"

Especially when a huge number of scientists and engineers who worked with eezo-tech are still up and about, and will inevitably use their skills for reconstruction

The Reapers have always been successful in large part because they can expect what technology their opponents are going to have, because everyone develops mass effect tech. If the relays weren't there, it is likely that a civilization would develop technology that would put the Reapers at a severe disadvantage. The relays prevent that, precisely because they are so efficient and easy to use.

If the Reapers are fucking DEAD, they can't use the trap, just like Germany was unable to use their autobahns to transport a massive army around when said army has been utterly crushed.

Meanwhile, if another threat arises in the near future, the galaxy without its transport infrastructure is FUCKED, even if that threat is actually more primitive than the state of the art, because they can't muster an organized military response in any way.

Answer me this. How are you going to explore beyond the mass relay system? How are you going to get to another galaxy using relays? You can't because you need another one on the other side. It's an inherently self-limiting system. Which has been my point. It's not a good infrastructure system if it can't be expanded or used for exploration, no?

DarkArk wrote:Answer me this. How are you going to explore beyond the mass relay system? How are you going to get to another galaxy using relays? You can't because you need another one on the other side. It's an inherently self-limiting system. Which has been my point. It's not a good infrastructure system if it can't be expanded or used for exploration, no?

And...how exactly do the relays prevent people from tackling this problem, with all the Reapers being dead? With an intact relay network they have their empires available to crack the secrets of the relays, and any other problems. With the network destroyed they will be busy starving to death in all those isolated regions. But oh yeah they will make a better FTL! Maybe. In six centuries. If it's even possible. After half of them fucking die.

Seriously, unless the relays actively keep people down...somehow, there is no need to blow them up, because without the Reapers they're just an Autobahn.

DarkArk wrote:Answer me this. How are you going to explore beyond the mass relay system? How are you going to get to another galaxy using relays? You can't because you need another one on the other side. It's an inherently self-limiting system. Which has been my point. It's not a good infrastructure system if it can't be expanded or used for exploration, no?

Where do you get the idea that the Mass Effect setting allows for some third form of FTL that is fast enough to explore beyond the galaxy ?

DarkArk wrote:Answer me this. How are you going to explore beyond the mass relay system? How are you going to get to another galaxy using relays? You can't because you need another one on the other side. It's an inherently self-limiting system. Which has been my point. It's not a good infrastructure system if it can't be expanded or used for exploration, no?

Build more relays, using whatever is left behind at the Ilos facility, and place them in a system after traveling there using conventional FTL? They've got a few centuries before they'd need to do that, they haven't even explored all of the current relay system and are still discovering new garden worlds and races (the Yahg, Raloi).

People do remember that blowing up the relays does not necessarily spare the undiscovered ones, yes?

DarkArk wrote:Answer me this. How are you going to explore beyond the mass relay system? How are you going to get to another galaxy using relays? You can't because you need another one on the other side. It's an inherently self-limiting system. Which has been my point. It's not a good infrastructure system if it can't be expanded or used for exploration, no?

Oh, so relays have to be destroyed because of their limitations. It's like whining you can't fly a car because it sticks to the ground and requires a road. In a world where no one has yet invented an airplane

Also, you know, destroying the basis of galaxy economy does not bode well for creating any tech that in can future improve or substitute the relays altogether.

On a completely different track, one thing (well, one MORE thing) bothers me about the ending. During the Normandy escape scene, where we see it in the relay network being chased by the multicoloured explosion of doom, Joker worriedly looks behind his shoulder.

Uh what was he expecting to see? The corridor? Did someone like call his name or something?

I know it's a pretty low on the scale of all the other bullshit, but... well, yeah. Herpderp moment or 'artistic licence'?

He knew what was coming, and so decided to preemptively snap his own neck to prevent himself from seeing the ending.

Stofsk wrote:On a completely different track, one thing (well, one MORE thing) bothers me about the ending. During the Normandy escape scene, where we see it in the relay network being chased by the multicoloured explosion of doom, Joker worriedly looks behind his shoulder.

Uh what was he expecting to see? The corridor? Did someone like call his name or something?

I know it's a pretty low on the scale of all the other bullshit, but... well, yeah. Herpderp moment or 'artistic licence'?

Might as well ask why Joker magically decides to fuck off mid-battle with ALL of Shepards squadmates then somehow comes out walking from a crash... with brittle bone disease.

PREDATOR490 wrote:

Stofsk wrote:On a completely different track, one thing (well, one MORE thing) bothers me about the ending. During the Normandy escape scene, where we see it in the relay network being chased by the multicoloured explosion of doom, Joker worriedly looks behind his shoulder.

Uh what was he expecting to see? The corridor? Did someone like call his name or something?

I know it's a pretty low on the scale of all the other bullshit, but... well, yeah. Herpderp moment or 'artistic licence'?

Might as well ask why Joker magically decides to fuck off mid-battle with ALL of Shepards squadmates then somehow comes out walking from a crash... with brittle bone disease.

'But...but...synthesis!' (ME3 ending fans response). Seriously though, that is the only way to justify it, aside from the 'it was all a dream sequence' thing. (the brittle bone part)

This is best article I've read about the whole thing, and I've read many...

Mass Effect, Tolkien, and Your Bullshit Artistic Process

To be a bit anal retentive, the Relays in ME1 are said to be able to work without another Relay on the receiving end, via the Codex. Probably means travel back takes longer.

Well I'm convinced.

I posted that a few days ago.

That's not at all convincing. It's a fan applying wishful thinking and trying to fill in gaping plotholes that are a result of shitty writing.

All the clutching at straws will be solemnized as the truth once Bioware's shitty writing bandaid is applied to Bioware's shitty writing.

Only now nerds with entitlement will never shut up ever again.

Galvatron wrote:This is best article I've read about the whole thing, and I've read many...

Mass Effect, Tolkien, and Your Bullshit Artistic Process

Here's another perspective on the whole "artistic integrity" business.

Stark wrote:All the clutching at straws will be solemnized as the truth once Bioware's shitty writing bandaid is applied to Bioware's shitty writing.

Only now nerds with entitlement will never shut up ever again.

I see Stark is still resisting indoctrination.

Stark wrote:All the clutching at straws will be solemnized as the truth once Bioware's shitty writing bandaid is applied to Bioware's shitty writing.

Only now nerds with entitlement will never shut up ever again.

If people don't tell Bioware that they suck, they'll never realise.

I don't think they plan to change the ending based on the comments made thus far.

So I'm just poking fun at the current ending in the BSN forums - pointing out the real world genocide and prejudice parallels - and it's apparently driving the pro-ending people nuts given the number of people who agreed that the ending represented a complete 180 from the "bring the galaxy together" theme.

Essentially...

<Zine> Catalyst is Space Hitler reading Mein Kampf to the player.

<Pro-Ending People> It's just a game! You're reading too much into this!

<Rest of Forum> Hey, you WANTED more "deep" interpreations of your "art"! Can't have it both ways!