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Darwin wrote:The commando droids actually gave the boys some trouble. In general I like those things, and they were just used better in this episode than in the past. They're fast and quiet and menacing. Also the Vulture Bombers were very neat to see.

Good point, those commando droids are clever. Remember the raid on the sensor/communications station that the commando droids performed a few episodes ago? When the clone inspectors arrived, one of the commando droids picked up a clone's helmet, put it on, and then changed its voice to imitate the clone voice before answering the communications. When it had to answer the door, it put on the clone armor and came out (though it still had its computer in the head, leaving it vulnerable).

One stunt, assuming the commando droids have a head computer and a body computer similar to a battle droid (needed for the Threepio stunt in AotC), would have been the inspector shooting the commando droid in the head, and it falls down. The inspector then comes over and shows that it was a droid inside a clone's uniform. The commando droid is able to hear the clone (or the interior droids are watching, and broadcasting to it), and the droid attacks.

It cannot see (clone armor covering up body sensors, and head damaged), and its hands are closed (clones have 4 fingers, it has 2, so it cannot use the gloves and it has to keep its fists closed), but it can grab with its arms and punch with the closed fist. So one arm is used to grab the clone that inspects it, and the other is used to deliver full strength (or beyond, as it will be destroyed soon) punches to weak points in the armor and/or try to break joints.


Between commando droids, and tactical droids, no wonder people in the Original Trilogy don't like droids. Intelligence and creativity like that, on a mass-production scale, would be scary. Now I'm wondering what a fanfiction of those droids (plus a starship) would be like in a crossover. High intelligence, creativity, and expendability/deniability); all they need is a source of industry. The Tactical droid would link to the ship's main computer for long-term planning, or when negotiating, the human that is volunteered to be their representative wears an earpiece. The Tactical droid merely transmits and receives via the earpiece, with no slowdown in speech due to thinking (it is thinking, just much faster).

Thanas wrote:I am really getting concerned about firepower level. Why didn't the Seperatist tanks fire at the walkway and collapsed it? (when the republic walkers made their slow ascent). It should have been real easy if those tanks can fire weaponry in the MT range.

You really expected high/consistant firepower? Remember those geonosian fighters? According to the ICS, their guns are capable of 2kt/shot. In the film, all their do is kick up little divots of dirt.

NecronLord wrote:

Thanas wrote:I am really getting concerned about firepower level. Why didn't the Seperatist tanks fire at the walkway and collapsed it? (when the republic walkers made their slow ascent). It should have been real easy if those tanks can fire weaponry in the MT range.

You really expected high/consistant firepower? Remember those geonosian fighters? According to the ICS, their guns are capable of 2kt/shot. In the film, all their do is kick up little divots of dirt.

This is a case where it would be insanely stupid for them to fire max power shots, as the blasts would have killed Dooku, who was in close proximity riding and open-air speeder bike (unless Sith lords can survive multi-kiloton blasts going off in their immediate vicinity).

Though yes, expecting perfect consistency from the Clone Wars (or the EU as a whole) is asking for rather a lot. This show's already done a better job of counter-minimalism than one might have expected, so I'm not complaining that they held back the multi-megaton blasts in a close-quarters ground battle.

The Romulan Republic wrote:This is a case where it would be insanely stupid for them to fire max power shots, as the blasts would have killed Dooku, who was in close proximity riding and open-air speeder bike (unless Sith lords can survive multi-kiloton blasts going off in their immediate vicinity).

In which case, what were they meant to be expecting to accomplish firing one millionth power shots at a shielded LAAT? They may as well have popped the canopy and spat at it.

That's the simple truth - these things aren't thought about beyond 'it's a laser' and 'it's a big laser' - the scientific rigour of the ICS is fine and dandy - but the directors and producers of Star Wars give no more thought to weapons power and suchlike than what looks cool. Attempts to impose consistancy on it will never work out perfectly - simply because the source material is not consistant.

One could just as wasily ask why the AT-TE's didn't open fire on the trade fed tanks in this episode, even assuming they were out of ammo for their main guns, their ball turrets should have been up to the job of driving that small force off. The producers just wanted a cool scene where Mace Windu did something spectacular to turn the course of an ambush. It's frankly, better than normal that they thought about the droids trying to box the column in with wrecked vehicles. Expecting consistancy in wattage of guns is living in fairyland. That's not what Star Wars has ever done.

NecronLord wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:This is a case where it would be insanely stupid for them to fire max power shots, as the blasts would have killed Dooku, who was in close proximity riding and open-air speeder bike (unless Sith lords can survive multi-kiloton blasts going off in their immediate vicinity).

In which case, what were they meant to be expecting to accomplish firing one millionth power shots at a shielded LAAT? They may as well have popped the canopy and spat at it.

Because Dooku ordered them too?

In all seriousness, though, I have three more questions:

1. What are an LAAT's shield's rated at?

2. Is it confirmed that the shields of that particular LAAT were on at that time (bearing in mind that it was blown apart immediately after dropping off Kenobi and Skywalker)?

3. Why not shoot in the hopes of doing some damage, or at least distracting them?

The Romulan Republic wrote: 1. What are an LAAT's shield's rated at?

If normal air vehicles put out kilotons, what the hell can one reasonably expect a few hundred megajoules at most to do to it?

That said, We've seen LAATs survive glancing hits from a core ship's defence laser. Which is capable of putting out 8Kt/shot.

2. Is it confirmed that the shields of that particular LAAT were on at that time (bearing in mind that it was blown apart immediately after dropping off Kenobi and Skywalker)?

Because in the film, not one geonosian ship's laser bolts actually hit it?

3. Why not shoot in the hopes of doing some damage, or at least distracting them?

It's like attacking a F-35 with a paintball gun. You're talking about them literally dialling down to 1/100,000,000th power.



This is just one representative example of Star Wars firepower being inconsistant as hell, remember. You're not going to tell me you've not noticed this, are you?

NecronLord wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote: 1. What are an LAAT's shield's rated at?

If normal air vehicles put out kilotons, what the hell can one reasonably expect a few hundred megajoules at most to do to it?

Examples of air craft, as opposed to star fighters, putting out kiloton-level blasts?

Either way, some aircraft having kiloton-level firepower does not prove that the LAAT has kiloton-level shields. Their are US aircraft that can carry nuclear bombs. Does that prove that the US military armors every vehicle to withstand a nuclear blast, or that they are fools for not doing so? Not a perfect analogy I'll agree, but I think you'll see my point.

That said, We've seen LAATs survive glancing hits from a core ship's defence laser. Which is capable of putting out 8Kt/shot.

Ok, I'll concede that's a bit odd. Without knowing what you're referring to, however, I will still entertain the possibility that the core ship was not firing full power shots.

Because in the film, not one geonosian ship's laser bolts actually hit it?

What are you talking about? They did hit it, and, as described above, blew it to fucking pieces.

3. Why not shoot in the hopes of doing some damage, or at least distracting them?

It's like attacking a F-35 with a paintball gun. You're talking about them literally dialling down to 1/100,000,000th power.[/quote]

Ok, I see your point.

This is just one representative example of Star Wars firepower being inconsistant as hell, remember. You're not going to tell me you've not noticed this, are you?

Please point out where I claimed that all examples of Star Wars firepower are consistent? If you seriously try to pretend that's my argument, well, that seems like a rather pitiful straw man.

I think in this case that in order to maintain some level of consistency within the canon policy, one must conclude that the Geonosians were firing low-power shots to avoid collateral damage given the ranges of the engagement and the presence of their leader, and that the LAAT either had no shields, or had them off for some unknown reason. Unless you can prove that they had shields, the simplest explanation I can think of is that they did not. Of course, their's still the matter of the core ship, but it could have been firing low-power shots for whatever reason, or that might have been a different model of LAAT (yes this is just speculation, I'm not familiar with the incident you described).

The Romulan Republic wrote:Examples of air craft, as opposed to star fighters, putting out kiloton-level blasts?

Geonosian fighter craft, AotC ICS.

Either way, some aircraft having kiloton-level firepower does not prove that the LAAT has kiloton-level shields. Their are US aircraft that can carry nuclear bombs. Does that prove that the US military armors every vehicle to withstand a nuclear blast, or that they are fools for not doing so? Not a perfect analogy I'll agree, but I think you'll see my point.

Star Wars vehicles do regularly withstand weapons of other equiv-tech vessels. Real war-vehicles do not tend to fare nearly so well.

What are you talking about? They did hit it, and, as described above, blew it to fucking pieces.

I'm obviously talking about before the Jedi landed and had to get out. It's no use landing if your passengers fry when they try to get out. We know that ray-shields are impassable for humans, so obviously any shield would have been deactivated at the point.

Please point out where I claimed that all examples of Star Wars firepower are consistent? If you seriously try to pretend that's my argument, well, that seems like a rather pitiful straw man.

You're taking issue with one example I gave, in the hope of disproving the general point that Star Wars writers don't think about weapons power on anywhere near the level needed for it to all be consistant with ICS figures. Another example would be that sizeable amounts of rock are easily destroyed by rifle-blasters in the previous episode of Clone Wars, but tank shots barely damage it in this one. While you could handwave away with excuses about different types of rock - in all honesty, the answer is, the script called for the cool scene with Windu shoving an AT-TE off the ledge here, wheras in the other one, it called for the cool scene of them bringing down a rock bridge on the beasties.

For this reason, any firepower estimate will always be unreliable compared to actual performance in Star Wars; these figures aren't held to by the creators. They just do what looks cool.

Also, I think you're getting the wrong end of the stick - I'm not saying you can't justify these things, what I'm saying is, it's an unrealistic expectation of the series (or the films) to be consistant about technical matters on such a scale. While it's nice when these things actually are shown, they're not important to 99.99% of the audience. A reasonable degree of verisimiltude will convince, and allow the story to be told.

Even the films don't manage such a level of detail, and they've got vastly more time and resources per hour of finished product than the Clone Wars team have, to go and do research and checking.

Coalition wrote:Between commando droids, and tactical droids, no wonder people in the Original Trilogy don't like droids. Intelligence and creativity like that, on a mass-production scale, would be scary. Now I'm wondering what a fanfiction of those droids (plus a starship) would be like in a crossover. High intelligence, creativity, and expendability/deniability); all they need is a source of industry. The Tactical droid would link to the ship's main computer for long-term planning, or when negotiating, the human that is volunteered to be their representative wears an earpiece. The Tactical droid merely transmits and receives via the earpiece, with no slowdown in speech due to thinking (it is thinking, just much faster).

This is what is so frustrating about the portrayal of the standard B-1 droids in the series and the second two prequels. In TPM we saw a few instances of battle droids actually using cover and not sounding like they weren't sucking down helium. Now we have largely buffoonish B-1s that actually stand around and discuss whether or not they should surrender as a Jedi and his clones bear down on them in fast walkers. These things should have been blasting away to the end. Another droid showed fear, throwing up its arms in terror before Windu pulled it towards him and dispatched it. It and its partner should have immediately opened up on Windu and his men.

Conversely, the Commando droids seen in this and other Clone Wars episodes were relentless. Grevious' bodyguard droids in ROTS were relentless, one still trying to grab at its weapon and attack Kenobi after it had been partially crushed. Can you imagine if the bulk of the battle droids in the Clone Wars Series and later prequel films were just as dogged and dangerous? Then people would REALLY have cause to fear them.

I know people have come up with any number of reasons why the B-1s are so damn stupid and chatty, but it still sticks in my craw.

FSTargetDrone wrote:This is what is so frustrating about the portrayal of the standard B-1 droids in the series and the second two prequels. In TPM we saw a few instances of battle droids actually using cover and not sounding like they weren't sucking down helium. Now we have largely buffoonish B-1s that actually stand around and discuss whether or not they should surrender as a Jedi and his clones bear down on them in fast walkers. These things should have been blasting away to the end. Another droid showed fear, throwing up its arms in terror before Windu pulled it towards him and dispatched it. It and its partner should have immediately opened up on Windu and his men.

To be fair, they show fear in the movies too. Most notably, on the bridge of Invisible Hand, the pilot-droids actually disobey a direct order "Stay at your stations!" from the Supreme Commander and Head of State of the CIS at the time, in order to try and flee the jedi.

Droids are a lot more like slaves, than dumb-terminal machines, at times.

Conversely, the Commando droids seen in this and other Clone Wars episodes were relentless. Grevious' bodyguard droids in ROTS were relentless, one still trying to grab at its weapon and attack Kenobi after it had been partially crushed. Can you imagine if the bulk of the battle droids in the Clone Wars Series and later prequel films were just as dogged and dangerous? Then people would REALLY have cause to fear them.

I know people have come up with any number of reasons why the B-1s are so damn stupid and chatty, but it still sticks in my craw.

Personally, I'd like to see them more competant, as well.

Of course, I'd also like to see 'heroes on both sides' and 'evil is everywhere' too.

NecronLord wrote:Of course, I'd also like to see 'heroes on both sides' and 'evil is everywhere' too.

This in my opinion was the main redeeming quality of the show's first Jar Jar-centric episode. The Rodian leader betrays Amidala to the Sepperatists, not for power or because he's just a bastard, but because his people are suffering and the Sepperatists have promised to help them. I liked that, because it was the first time I'd seen someone who joined the Sepperatists for nobel reasons, and I felt it tied in well with the "heros on both sides. Evil is everywhere" bit.

And the episode with the racist Republic leader (Trespass), and the wayward clone traitor (The Hidden Enemy).

VT-16 wrote:And the episode with the racist Republic leader (Trespass), and the wayward clone traitor (The Hidden Enemy).

Also, the traitor who helped bust out Newt Gunray.

One of the things this show has done fairly well is showing that their are heros and scum on either side.

NecronLord wrote:To be fair, they show fear in the movies too. Most notably, on the bridge of Invisible Hand, the pilot-droids actually disobey a direct order "Stay at your stations!" from the Supreme Commander and Head of State of the CIS at the time, in order to try and flee the jedi.

Droids are a lot more like slaves, than dumb-terminal machines, at times.

Yeah. Dumb terminals aren't likely to be promoted either, as we have seen!

Generally more "human like" behaviour seems to crop up if the droid's memory isnt wiped regularly, which would (logically) be a function of maintenance. It could be as well that the changes made between AOTC and TPM (where taking out the DCS no longer totally disables the droid army) also lead to this increased individuality (They aren't as centrally controlled anymore. Some may even be much more autonomous). Given how powerhungry and greedy and t hrifty the Separatists are to begin with (or how they're portrayeD) its quite likely they don't bother with overhauling their entire army periodically (hell with quadrillions or quintillions of battle droids they probably don't use them all at oncee anyhow - wear and tear with no good return and all that) and thus you get droids who act more human (and/or more inefficient/stupid/whatever.) Hell some may even be deranged.

And as I noted, since the CIS has literally quadrillions/quintillions of them, this probably never matters in a large scale - they can always make more and they have lots more to replacec them.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Generally more "human like" behaviour seems to crop up if the droid's memory isnt wiped regularly, which would (logically) be a function of maintenance. It could be as well that the changes made between AOTC and TPM (where taking out the DCS no longer totally disables the droid army) also lead to this increased individuality (They aren't as centrally controlled anymore. Some may even be much more autonomous). Given how powerhungry and greedy and t hrifty the Separatists are to begin with (or how they're portrayeD) its quite likely they don't bother with overhauling their entire army periodically (hell with quadrillions or quintillions of battle droids they probably don't use them all at oncee anyhow - wear and tear with no good return and all that) and thus you get droids who act more human (and/or more inefficient/stupid/whatever.) Hell some may even be deranged.

I find it quite reasonable to assume that maintenance wipes aren't performed on the B1's, simply because they're so cheap that it isn't economical to do much more than work them till they fall apart.
As a result, you get a wide range of B1 personality disorders. As long as it doesn't keep them from holding a blaster in the general direction of the enemy, they're just sent out as-is.

NecronLord wrote:I'm obviously talking about before the Jedi landed and had to get out. It's no use landing if your passengers fry when they try to get out. We know that ray-shields are impassable for humans, so obviously any shield would have been deactivated at the point.

But what's the explanation for Padme not being fried when she fell out of the LAAT? The shields were clearly up as they were taking fire from the Geonosian fighters.

Noble713 wrote:

NecronLord wrote:I'm obviously talking about before the Jedi landed and had to get out. It's no use landing if your passengers fry when they try to get out. We know that ray-shields are impassable for humans, so obviously any shield would have been deactivated at the point.

But what's the explanation for Padme not being fried when she fell out of the LAAT? The shields were clearly up as they were taking fire from the Geonosian fighters.

Must not cover the passenger doorway when it's uncovered. If it's hull-hugging, then the energy shields are going to follow the door when it slides back.

Noble713 wrote:But what's the explanation for Padme not being fried when she fell out of the LAAT? The shields were clearly up as they were taking fire from the Geonosian fighters.

And I've always wondered why the damn tail gun on that particular LAAT wasn't being used while it was being pursued.

Noble713 wrote:

NecronLord wrote:I'm obviously talking about before the Jedi landed and had to get out. It's no use landing if your passengers fry when they try to get out. We know that ray-shields are impassable for humans, so obviously any shield would have been deactivated at the point.

But what's the explanation for Padme not being fried when she fell out of the LAAT? The shields were clearly up as they were taking fire from the Geonosian fighters.

Shields can be angled against particular threats and will leave openings when they're angled. Did you not watch ANH?

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Noble713 wrote:

NecronLord wrote:I'm obviously talking about before the Jedi landed and had to get out. It's no use landing if your passengers fry when they try to get out. We know that ray-shields are impassable for humans, so obviously any shield would have been deactivated at the point.

But what's the explanation for Padme not being fried when she fell out of the LAAT? The shields were clearly up as they were taking fire from the Geonosian fighters.

Shields can be angled against particular threats and will leave openings when they're angled. Did you not watch ANH?

I don't think I've clearly expressed my point:

If the shields are a) hull-hugging, and don't cover open spaces on the craft and/or b ) angled to the rear so again they aren't covering the open spaces on the sides, then NecronLord's statement that the shields were lowered to disembark passengers (otherwise they'd fry) doesn't hold up.

The Romulan Republic wrote:One of the things this show has done fairly well is showing that their are heros and scum on either side.

Are we watching the same show? They're not even trying. The Separatists are cartoon villains in the worst way. Your good Separatists aren't really Separatists and your evil Republicans are either outright traitors or flagrantly acting against the spirit of the Republic.

Darth Raptor wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:One of the things this show has done fairly well is showing that their are heros and scum on either side.

Are we watching the same show? They're not even trying. The Separatists are cartoon villains in the worst way. Your good Separatists aren't really Separatists and your evil Republicans are either outright traitors or flagrantly acting against the spirit of the Republic.

"Aren't really Seperatists?" How is that the case for my example? As for Republic villains, I'll concede that I have yet to see one who was not a traitor. And thus actually a Seperatist.

The cartoonishness though seems something of a one-sided accusation. I mean, Grevious is a bit of a cartoonish villain maybe, but he was in RotS too. Dooku I don't know, he seems a bit dumber and less sophisticated maybe. As for Ventris, she can be quite bad ass, if the writers actually let the bad guys win for a change (episode Cloak of Darkness).

Though when it comes to the droids, they are truly pathetic, at least the B1s.

The chairman of Pantora was a villain, yet he always tried to play by the Republic's rules, so he wasn't a traitor, just a fanatic.